# Hillary Collusion with the Russians **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 18, 2017, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-collusion-with-the-russians/799227 "2017-10-18T13:58:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2017, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-collusion-with-the-russians/799227/41 "2017-10-19T01:06:30Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > What else have they got? I can think of quite a bit of things but then for me it’s not “they” since I’m a Republican, even if it’s of the swing voting, centrist, RINO variety. One of the few things Trump supported during the campaign that didn’t make me screech in anguish was supporting an infrastructure bill. There’s even broad bipartisan support for the general notion. So of course Trump promptly forgot about it come Nov 9th. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2017, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-collusion-with-the-russians/799227/42 "2017-10-19T01:52:43Z")
> [@smsaks2000](#): > > Just curious to see what our friends on the Left have to say about this. Right wing conspiracy theories =/= state and federal investigations being spearheaded by someone who ran the FBI for 13 years. If Hillary Clinton broke the law, I’m in favor of her being investigated or held accountable. Nobody being above the law is one of the hallmarks of a functioning democracy. But right wing propaganda is not the same thing as legitimate news or legitimate law enforcement. If Robert Mueller or the FBI thought ‘pajamas media’ was a legitimate source of legitimate news, they’d investigate. But they don’t because they aren’t, they are a dishonest right wing propaganda outlet designed to feed conservative addiction to outrage and fear. Also Snopes says your conspiracy isn’t true. > **[Did Hillary Clinton Give 20% of U.S. Uranium to Russia in Exchange for...](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/hillary-clinton-uranium-russia-deal/)** > > Allegations of a deal giving Russia ownership of 20% of U.S. uranium deposits in exchange for donations to the Clinton Foundation are unsubstantiated. I know we’re supposed to bridge the political divide and all, but you people have no idea how much damage you are doing to our democracy. You people are easy prey to propaganda and russian meddling. You are not informed members of democracy, you are irrational tribalists so filled with resentment and anger that you can’t see your hand in front of your face, or distinguish fantasy from reality. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2017, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-collusion-with-the-russians/799227/43 "2017-10-19T01:55:34Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > It’s amazing all the powers that right wingers think Hillary had. The military didn’t get to Benghazi in time because of Hillary’s orders to stand down. Yep, the military takes orders from the Secretary of State. And this deal to give away uranium- which by the way never left the country. The almighty Hillary found a way to work around the lack of an export license to send our uranium to Russia. Just amazing the power that Hillary had. You forgot how Hillary had millions of people vote illegally, but didn’t put 80,000 of those illegal voters in PA, MI or WI where it would’ve mattered to the elections outcome. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2017, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-collusion-with-the-russians/799227/44 "2017-10-19T01:58:16Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > [ul][li]It didn’t happen.[/ul][ul][_]It doesn’t count.[/ul][ul][_]Trump is bad, and [/ul][ul][\*]It didn’t happen.[/ul][/li] > Regards, > Shodan The rule of law is important to democracy. If Hillary broke the law, then law enforcement is free to investigate. But right wing propaganda is not considered a valid source of info to valid law enforcement agencies. There were endless investigations into benghazi, no charges filed. I wonder why. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2017, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-collusion-with-the-russians/799227/45 "2017-10-19T01:59:59Z")
> [@DinoR](#): > > I can think of quite a bit of things but then for me it’s not “they” since I’m a Republican, even if it’s of the swing voting, centrist, RINO variety. One of the few things Trump supported during the campaign that didn’t make me screech in anguish was supporting an infrastructure bill. There’s even broad bipartisan support for the general notion. So of course Trump promptly forgot about it come Nov 9th. :smack: Which is why they can’t point at Trump’s infrastructure successes as something to campaign on, so they’re still campaigning on bashing Hillary, which is what you asked about in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2017, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-collusion-with-the-russians/799227/46 "2017-10-19T02:19:53Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > It’s amazing all the powers that right wingers think Hillary had. The military didn’t get to Benghazi in time because of Hillary’s orders to stand down. Yep, the military takes orders from the Secretary of State. And this deal to give away uranium- which by the way never left the country. The almighty Hillary found a way to work around the lack of an export license to send our uranium to Russia. Just amazing the power that Hillary had. According to this [New York Times article](https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/24/us/cash-flowed-to-clinton-foundation-as-russians-pressed-for-control-of-uranium-company.html?smid=tw-share) from 2015 Uranium One has shipped uranium outside of the USA: > [@New York Times](#): > > Asked about that, the commission confirmed that Uranium One has, in fact, shipped yellowcake to Canada even though it does not have an export license. Instead, the transport company doing the shipping, RSB Logistic Services, has the license. A commission spokesman said that “to the best of our knowledge” most of the uranium sent to Canada for processing was returned for use in the United States. A Uranium One spokeswoman, Donna Wichers, said 25 percent had gone to Western Europe and Japan. At the moment, with the uranium market in a downturn, nothing is being shipped from the Wyoming mines. I’m not sure if this has been debunked since 2015 but if anyone has an update please share. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2017, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-collusion-with-the-russians/799227/47 "2017-10-19T04:28:46Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > And this deal to give away uranium- which by the way never left the country. The almighty Hillary found a way to work around the lack of an export license to send our uranium to Russia. Just amazing the power that Hillary had. I think the point is the money from domestic sale of that uranium went to a Russian-owned company. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2017, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-collusion-with-the-russians/799227/48 "2017-10-19T04:36:02Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Regardless, it’s worth noting for context. Right now, any Trump-related contact with Russians, or apparent attempts to do things that are aligned with Russian interests, are viewed with the highest suspicion in certain circles. Appreciating that these types of things happened under Obama too should put a different spin on things. Good point. Not every interaction with Russian nationals is treason. > [@](#): > > One sub-question is how this impacts Bob Mueller specifically. He had the top position in the FBI at the time this info was allegedly being withheld from congress. If he was found to have been involved in that, that could entangle his Trump-Russia investigation, I would think. And now you’ve lost me. What does the FBI have to do with this deal? ---
**Author:** ![Grestarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grestarian/32/3227_2.png) [@Grestarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grestarian)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2017, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-collusion-with-the-russians/799227/49 "2017-10-19T05:04:38Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > The big mistake in this thread is the focus on Hillary. That’s the weakest link of the story. The real story - to the extent that there is one - is the Obama administration’s willingness to overlook Russian misdeeds and suppress knowledge of them from relevant authorities in the name of maintaining good relations with Russia (“reset”). Whether this actually happened - and if it did, whether this was in any way criminal - is very unclear at this point. But there’s no less reason to look into this than to look at all the Trump-related matters. This is one of the few responses in either of the two threads on this (today) that seems coherent and relevant! The question, similar to the Snopes debunking, is whether/how much President Obama’s administration knew at all. [snipped] > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > One sub-question is how this impacts Bob Mueller specifically. He had the top position in the FBI at the time this info was allegedly being withheld from congress. If he was found to have been involved in that, that could entangle his Trump-Russia investigation, I would think. I concur! Furthermore, it would be critical to ask Mueller whether or not he acted independently in withholding that information from Congress and WHY. I would want to know if he delayed revealing that (type of) information longer than necessary or has been continuing the investigations in order to solidify evidence and resulting accusations. After all, one does not bring up such allegations lightly. –G! ---
**Author:** ![Grestarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grestarian/32/3227_2.png) [@Grestarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grestarian)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2017, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-collusion-with-the-russians/799227/50 "2017-10-19T06:20:55Z")
After reading my own post, above, I think I’m leaving too much unstated. I bring up the two points of inquiry because they focus on oversight and intent. Part of the Snopes debunking very clearly rejects the suggestion that Hillary could have done anything to affect (or later reject) the vote and it separates donations to her husband’s foundation from personal interest in the outcome of that vote. Similarly, Meuller’s active inhibition of the investigation or a decision to withhold that information from the President once it had been firmly established would probably be grounds for some kind of charges against him (as well as the media scandal) and if strong incontrovertible allegations were revealed to the President and he failed to act on the information he would probably also face charges of some kind – perhaps even today despite the fact that he is no longer in office. On the other hand, if President Obama didn’t know (for whatever reason, since he was dealing with a hell of a lot of stuff going on, as any head of state must do) then he can’t be blamed even for failing to veto the CFIUS vote. Similarly, if Meuller refrained from disclosing to the President information which had not been firmly established as fact (firmly enough to pass whatever standard tests of evidence are required of any other investigation) then it’s difficult to blame him for doing something wrong. In fact it would have been more of a scandal (and a media circus event) if he had been too much of an alarmist and shared talk of _possibly-maybe-not-quite-right things we’re looking into_ which have now turned up to be not-so-scandalous-after-all. If there’s some heat to be taken in regard to the whole bargain, I might suggest (weakly) that the Canadian company (Canada is now our ally, right?) should have blocked the purchase of its stocks by a Russian interest. But, hey, capitalism is capitalism and doesn’t that mean anyone with the funds can buy any stock they want? –G! ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2017, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-collusion-with-the-russians/799227/51 "2017-10-19T06:42:03Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > [ul][li]It didn’t happen.[/ul][ul][_]It doesn’t count.[/ul][ul][_]Trump is bad, and [/ul][ul][\*]It didn’t happen.[/ul][/li] > Regards, > Shodan I’m not taking it as a given that the OP is coming back to this thread, but you’re a regular here, **Shodan** , so would you care to address the rebuttals by Snopes? It certainly would be a lot more useful and informative than this content-free drive-by. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2017, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-collusion-with-the-russians/799227/52 "2017-10-19T12:40:04Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > I’m not taking it as a given that the OP is coming back to this thread, but you’re a regular here, **Shodan** , so would you care to address the rebuttals by Snopes? It certainly would be a lot more useful and informative than this content-free drive-by. I’m going to guess… Snopes didn’t happen. Snopes didn’t count. Clinton is bad, and Snopes didn’t happen. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2017, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-collusion-with-the-russians/799227/53 "2017-10-19T13:30:12Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > It’s amazing all the powers that right wingers think Hillary had. The military didn’t get to Benghazi in time because of Hillary’s orders to stand down. Yep, the military takes orders from the Secretary of State. And this deal to give away uranium- which by the way never left the country. The almighty Hillary found a way to work around the lack of an export license to send our uranium to Russia. Just amazing the power that Hillary had. She did all that while being Secretary of State, too, like some kind of comic book supergenius they way the right describes her. The GOP has had actual, complete control of the House and the Senate AND the Presidency for 10 months now and they haven’t done anything. At all. That’s gotta be chafing their asses something fierce. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2017, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-collusion-with-the-russians/799227/54 "2017-10-19T15:14:55Z")
Does El Douchebag read this forum? [He’s now tweeting about the uranium deal!](https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2017/10/19/1708104/-Trump-tries-to-change-the-subject-from-he-knew-what-he-signed-up-for-to-uranium) ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2017, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-collusion-with-the-russians/799227/55 "2017-10-19T15:17:50Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Does El Douchebag read this forum? [He’s now tweeting about the uranium deal!](https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2017/10/19/1708104/-Trump-tries-to-change-the-subject-from-he-knew-what-he-signed-up-for-to-uranium) Nah, it’s just that Trump gets his information from Fox (instead of intelligence briefings) like more right wingers in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2017, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-collusion-with-the-russians/799227/56 "2017-10-19T16:37:33Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > And now you’ve lost me. What does the FBI have to do with this deal? It’s being alleged that the FBI investigated Russian corruption relating to this deal but withheld the evidence, possibly in order to make sure that the deal was approved. See e.g. [http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/356155-senate-seeks-to-interview-fbi-informant-in-russian-nuclear-bribery](http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/356155-senate-seeks-to-interview-fbi-informant-in-russian-nuclear-bribery) et al ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2017, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-collusion-with-the-russians/799227/57 "2017-10-19T17:11:03Z")
IOW “But Hillary!” ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2017, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-collusion-with-the-russians/799227/58 "2017-10-19T17:21:06Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Regardless, it’s worth noting for context. Right now, any Trump-related contact with Russians, or apparent attempts to do things that are aligned with Russian interests, are viewed with the highest suspicion in certain circles. Appreciating that these types of things happened under Obama too should put a different spin on things. No. It shouldn’t. You’re just exhibiting the fallacy of _tu quoque_. In actuality, accusations that “you did it, too” have no bearing on whether what was done was wrong. It is a common tactic used by those who cannot deny they did something bad, in an attempt to lessen what they did. But it doesn’t work. Though you are correct that it is a form of spin. You took the main part of the situation, which has been proven false, and picked out one part and are now focusing on that one thing, and trying to turn that into an argument. Unfortunately, it is a fallacy. But, I get it. Motivated reasoning is the best the Right has anymore. And it’s good enough to catch people who didn’t go to classes in rhetoric, logic, or critical thinking. I mean, what’s being described her has nothing to do with meddling with an election, anyways. So it’s not even comparable. It’s also unlikely for such a conspiracy to let Russia get away with this stuff exists. So it’s not even a good _tu quoque_. But, ultimately, none of that matters. If your best argument is _tu quoque_, then the argument is already moot. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2017, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-collusion-with-the-russians/799227/59 "2017-10-19T17:38:07Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I mean, what’s being described her has nothing to do with meddling with an election, anyways. So it’s not even comparable. This has evidently escaped your notice and will no doubt continue to do so, but the investigations into Trump’s Russia connections have moved well beyond “meddling with an election” by this point. Leaving that aside, if you reread my prior post (the part you quoted will suffice), and think about it long and hard, it’s possible (not that I’m especially optimistic or anything) that you will be able to understand the following. My point was about the interpretation of Trump & Co’s actions vis a vis Russia, and about placing them in the context of actions of the prior administration. The structure of the logic - which you may have vague memories of, from your “classes in rhetoric, logic, or critical thinking” - goes like this: Person A: Since P therefore Q. Person B: Here’s another example of P. Are you alleging Q in that instance too? If not, then your conditional proposition does not hold. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2017, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-collusion-with-the-russians/799227/60 "2017-10-19T17:57:17Z")
Oh, so it’s all about trying to draw a false equivalence; got it. Why, tho? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-collusion-with-the-russians/799227.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-collusion-with-the-russians/799227.md?page=4)