# Hillary fans don't get it. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [May 20, 2016, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205 "2016-05-20T03:02:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2016, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/41 "2016-05-20T13:21:06Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Yes, how dare people not vote for a candidate who shares none of their fundamental positions? And you think Hillary voters don’t get it? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2016, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/42 "2016-05-20T13:39:05Z")
Sanders’s embrace of woo, that factless, emotion-driven bullshit body of idiocy, is part and parcel of this new conspiracy-ish thinking. I think Sanders is right about many things. I also think that he’s right mostly by chance, because he doesn’t appear to really look at evidence and facts. He looks at ways to make the world conform to what he wants to believe. Woo 101. Now, a person who is right about many things is at least much better than a person who is wrong about nearly everything. And I think Sanders is a good person. But the way he thinks about the world is anathema to me. He may be nonreligious, but he embraces his ideology the way a fundamentalist Christian embraces the bible. I recently read a book set it Tudor England with all of the various religious factions running around, each trying to get members of other factions burned at the stake for heresy. That’s what Sanders’s campaign looks like to me right now. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2016, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/43 "2016-05-20T13:47:30Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > the subject of apostasy has no relevance to the problems of the Libya or even the Syria. > [@jsgoddess](#): > > I recently read a book set it Tudor England with all of the various religious factions running around, each trying to get members of other factions burned at the stake for heresy. That’s what Sanders’s campaign looks like to me right now. Uh huh. So ISIL doesn’t declare people infidels as justification for killing them for apostasy, but Sanders does. Well done, you’re both making complete fools of yourselves. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2016, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/44 "2016-05-20T13:55:20Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Uh huh. So ISIL doesn’t declare people infidels as justification for killing them for apostasy, but Sanders does. Well done, you’re both making complete fools of yourselves. Amusing the straw man illogical response. DAESH comes out of the Iraq. It is not the problem of the Arab spring, it is the problem of the gross incompetence of the Americans in their war of aggression against the Iraqi regime (the other terrible Baath regime of course). Of course the DAESH are takfiri, but that has not a thing to do with the original descent into the violence in the Syria nor the Libya. The DAESH popped up late in each of these cases, and the Takfir had nothing to do with the causes of the original civil wars fighting in each. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2016, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/45 "2016-05-20T13:58:29Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Uh huh. So ISIL doesn’t declare people infidels as justification for killing them for apostasy, but Sanders does. Well done, you’re both making complete fools of yourselves. I see that analogies are very difficult for you. I’m sorry. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2016, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/46 "2016-05-20T14:06:39Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Bush destroyed the GOP and made a more progressive America possible. Trump will drive a few more nails in that coffin. I think it’s pragmatic liberals who aren’t thinking clearly here. I’d rather drive nails with a hammer than the heel of a shoe, but thanks for that fascinating specimen of what you call “thinking”. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2016, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/47 "2016-05-20T14:40:22Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Again: how does President Trump bring Bernie’s perfect world closer to reality? Also: do you deny that if Hillary gets the nomination, the president will be either her or Trump? If so, which would be less likely to do harm to the progressive movement and more likely to help it? Losing an election because you ignored your base can be strong medicine. Just as establishment Republicans. ---
**Author:** ![Pashnish\_Ewing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8797f3/32.png) [@Pashnish\_Ewing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pashnish_Ewing)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2016, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/48 "2016-05-20T15:03:28Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > I support Clinton because she isn’t anti-nuclear. Being anti-nuclear is downright irresponsible and very dangerous now, given how bad global warming has gotten. Sanders, on the other hand, has anti-nuclear nonsense written into his platform. > > So, how does that make me an amoral shill? Nuclear is great and all, but until someone figures out the NIMBY problem, it is a completely untenable movement. And to the OP, someone touched on it earlier, but if there are enough of these ‘young’ progressives, they can make their feelings known by voting anti-war in the House and Senate to keep a hawkish president in check. And if they don’t have anti-war candidates to vote for in their state or districts, they need to make their voices heard and pose a serious threat to vote the bastards out next election. But I don’t think they have the numbers to make that difference. So I get it if they want to vote Green or write someone in, but there is no logical case for the people you described to vote Trump (unless they are single issue voters, and that issue is to stick it to HRC - which I suspect is what this is really all about). ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2016, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/49 "2016-05-20T15:24:11Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > On this particular issue, which lots and lots of people consider to be the _main_ issue (in some cases, the _only_ important issue), Hillary is indistinguishable from Trump. Your taxes will be the same under Trump or Hillary. You will not have anything closer (or further away) from a single payer healthcare system under either candidate. Your CEO will still make 726% more than you do under either candidate. You will continue to have a higher effective tax rate than Warren Buffet. Both Hillary and Trump would have bailed out Wall street in the exact same way Obama did, and nobody would have been prosecuted, and the public wouldn’t own any of the companies we paid for. Education prices will still be outpacing inflation by many multiples. Both candidates will be equally unfriendly to labor unions (especially if she governs similarly to Bill Clinton). > . I don’t believe any of this is correct. 1. I don’t think my taxes would be the same under Trump as under Clinton. I’m certain my taxes would be lower under Trump, probably disastrously low. 2. We would be a lot closer to single payer under Clinton than under Trump. 3. Yes, both Clinton and Trump would have bailed out Wall Street, but not in the same way. Trump would have supported less, probably far less, regulations. We would almost certainly not have a consumer protection bureau. 4. Trump would be far more unfriendly to labor unions than Clinton would be. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2016, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/50 "2016-05-20T15:28:19Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Losing an election because you ignored your base can be strong medicine. Just as establishment Republicans. But let’s be honest for a second, the Tea-Party, Evangelical base that the GOP ignored is far more likely to be Cruz supporters. Trump definitely doesn’t share Tea-Party ideas on the size of government, and he definitely doesn’t share Evangelical ideas on morality. He may play to racial fears and America-First-ism on both of those sides, but Trump is not really the product of issues that the GOP base wish were more pronounced. Hell, one of Trump’s main selling points is “He can make a deal” - the GOP base didn’t want any deals. I agree with those that say that if the Democrats lose because of a far left people abandon them, they aren’t going to go left to get those people… they’ll go right to get more centrists. The Democrats already tried to go left to deal with a far-right conservative in a Presidential race… it led to Walter Mondale getting destroyed, which, of course, led to Bill Clinton and the DLC becoming more and more ascendant and taking over the party. Trust me, if Sanders supporters stay home because they believe the Democrats are too corrupt and Trump wins the Presidency, they aren’t going to pander to the left, they are going to tack to the center. Anyways, **foolsguinea** , vote for who ever you want. Just don’t let the door hit your ass on the way out. With your (and other BernieOrBust folks) irrational bleating, I don’t care about your vote. I’d rather not accept it (just as I’d rather not accept the votes of Klan members). Start your own party rather than trying to hijack mine. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2016, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/51 "2016-05-20T15:40:32Z")
Voting Trump if Bernie doesn’t get the nomination isn’t a protest vote-it’s a destructive temper tantrum. “If we can’t get exactly what we want, we’ll put Trump in, and after he fucks this country up they’ll be _begging_ Bernie to come in and fix things!” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2016, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/52 "2016-05-20T15:42:50Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > I think what you have to “get” is that right now Sanders is pretty much encouraging and facilitating the sort of supporters exemplified by the op and that increasingly that is a louder (not more numerous but nevertheless louder) part of “the message” this loud subgroup of Sanders supporters are trying to send and plan on bringing to the convention. By virtue of Sanders support for (and often personal messaging of) the primacy of the Crooked Hillary the Horrible, Big Business toady and stooge, stealing the election from “The People” message, along with a focus on how the Democratic Party is the enemy establishment that they must take on, the op’s perspective is the message that is now being claimed as being sent by support for Sanders. I’ve never heard Bernie say that Trump is preferable to Clinton. If fact, he’s said the exact opposite. And that’s the big take-away form the OP, so no I still don’t get it. Sorry-- I should have made it clearer in my first post. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2016, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/53 "2016-05-20T15:56:45Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Yes, how dare people not vote for a candidate who shares none of their fundamental positions? Did you see the list of Trump’s potential SCOTUS nominees? You really want to put any of those whackos on the court for the next 30 years? Clinton can be the most conservative Democrat in the world and I’d still see her as lightyears better than an actual Republican. She won’t nominate another Scalia. She will automatically default to Democratic platforms when against Republicans, and she appoints and hires a lot more liberals than Trump, even accidentally ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2016, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/54 "2016-05-20T15:59:48Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Losing an election because you ignored your base can be strong medicine. Just ask establishment Republicans. If it’s strong medicine, either it’s very slow-acting, or the patient has built up an astonishing tolerance. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2016, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/55 "2016-05-20T16:03:46Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > If it’s strong medicine, either it’s very slow-acting, or the patient has built up an astonishing tolerance. That’s not strong medicine-it’s a poison pill. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2016, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/56 "2016-05-20T16:05:40Z")
No, you _don’t_ get it. Sanders right now is still occasionally, begrudgingly, saying that Clinton would not be as bad as Trump. But his focus is on the evils of the Democratic establishment. His rhetoric explicitly empowers the POV of the op and states that the rigged party is at fault for it. The message being sent by encouraging this crap, by explicitly stating that harm to November chances if it is not him is not his concern, getting the most delegates he can and taking his fight to the convention floor is all that matter, is, no matter how much he adds a footnote that he’ll work to defeat Trump, that only he is the path forward and nothing else matters. Not so sure many of those voting for him want to send that message though. ---
**Author:** ![Nonsuch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nonsuch/32/2922_2.png) [@Nonsuch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nonsuch)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2016, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/57 "2016-05-20T16:13:14Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > That’s not strong medicine-it’s a poison pill. QFT. Rooting for the Democratic Party to lobotomize itself the way the Republicans have isn’t progressivism; it’s blinkered nihilism. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2016, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/58 "2016-05-20T16:17:37Z")
Just blocked yet another Sanders supporter on Facebook: when I cited the Politifact article about Nevada’s caucuses, she accused me of being a troll in the pay of Clinton’s campaign, and of smothering the flames of the revolution. I can do without that. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2016, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/59 "2016-05-20T16:18:31Z")
> [@Nonsuch](#): > > QFT. Rooting for the Democratic Party to lobotomize itself the way the Republicans have isn’t progressivism; it’s blinkered nihilism. The thought is that a glorious progressive movement will rise phoenix-like from the ashes. It’s not nihilistic so much as extremist. Also, completely unrealistic. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2016, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/60 "2016-05-20T16:21:11Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Just blocked yet another Sanders supporter on Facebook: when I cited the Politifact article about Nevada’s caucuses, she accused me of being a troll in the pay of Clinton’s campaign, and of smothering the flames of the revolution. I can do without that. Smothering the flames of the revolution with your Trenchcoat of Establishmentarianism? Again? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205.md?page=4)