# Hillary fans don't get it. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [May 20, 2016, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205 "2016-05-20T03:02:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/121 "2016-05-21T05:11:28Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Seriously, she’s a magnet for witch hunts, between her cozy ties to Goldman Sachs, the Clinton Foundation, the illegal war in Libya, the Benghazi fracas, her husband’s suspicious last-minute pardons in 2000-2001–not to mention old business from Arkansas. Bless your dear heart, you’ve swallowed the Republican hitjobs hook, line, and sinker, and you think this helps the progressive cause. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/122 "2016-05-21T05:19:08Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > If you decide not to vote, you’re telling both candidates they can safely ignore you and your beliefs. 😕 That’s why I’m voting for a third party. If I vote for her, I’m telling the Democrats that this sort of candidate is “good enough.” Now, if Hillary wins without progressives, yes, she can “safely” ignore them. But she won’t. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/123 "2016-05-21T05:27:06Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > _Your_ party? Are you Andrew Jackson?.. Huh? Wha? Da fuq? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/124 "2016-05-21T05:28:07Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Bless your dear heart, you’ve swallowed the Republican hitjobs hook, line, and sinker, and you think this helps the progressive cause. Aw, bless your naïve little heart, you really believe that Hillary’s a _good_ person because she has the right enemies. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/125 "2016-05-21T05:31:43Z")
'Luc, you do realize, yes, that the Democratic Party is the party of Andrew Jackson & James K. Polk? Now, if they were LBJ Great Society liberals, I could work with that. But apparently that’s just too progressive. Maybe they really only liked LBJ when he was bombing the Orientals. If they don’t want to be progressives but just old-fashioned yellow dog Democrats, I can take them at their word. I’ve voted Democrat for a decade, but I’m looking at them with new eyes. I think I have too much injun & too much latin in me to vote for\* that\* party. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/126 "2016-05-21T05:42:34Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Aw, bless your naïve little heart, you really believe that Hillary’s a _good_ person because she has the right enemies. Yeah, nah, but thanks for giving us a look into your very interesting mind. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/127 "2016-05-21T06:05:37Z")
> [@](#): > > …Aw, bless your naïve little heart, you really believe that Hillary’s a good person because she has the right enemies… Well, yeah, having the right enemies goes a ways with me, that’s for sure. Can’t help but notice how much time the Forces of Darkness spend talking about how they have to stop her. If they are thrashing about on the floor cursing, I see no reason to interrupt them to explain that I don’t much like her either. If I were a better person, I probably wouldn’t look forward to it so gleefully. Perhaps, some day I will be! Perhaps that will be the same day I buy your deep dish crapola about Andy Jackson somehow being a founding spirit of the progressive movement. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/128 "2016-05-21T06:07:48Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Aw, bless your naïve little heart, you really believe that Hillary’s a _good_ person because she has the right enemies. You think they’re the right enemies, yet you also believe in the scandals they accuse her of? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/129 "2016-05-21T06:13:04Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > I will not suffer through eight years of a right-wing murderer & imperialist trying to command the loyalty of leftists and progressives. > > In the immediate term, Clinton may be preferable to Trump, sure. But a Clinton win delays any leftward or counter-imperialist redirection within the Democratic Party… The harder you throw a ball against the wall, the harder it will bounce back toward you. But politics and social change don’t work that way, at least reliably. Reagan was catastrophic for progressive values, but his Presidency didn’t rebound into a following progressivism — it led to Bill Clinton taking the Democrats toward the center or center-right. The under-regulation which led to the 2007-2008 credit crisis didn’t lead to any major changes, just cosmetic fixes and more of the same. Best therefore is to play for the _preferable near-term future_ and not fantasize about some long-term “rebound strategy.” Your writing “Clinton _ **may** _ be preferable to Trump” leads me to infer you aren’t aware how horrible a Trump Presidency might be. Yes, the Congress won’t approve the stupidest of his ideas but a President Trump may exert enormous influence via the tone and style of his White House. [Read an account of the results from leaders similar to Trump in style.](http://www.rawstory.com/2016/05/how-the-war-on-drugs-only-boosts-strongmen-like-the-philippine-punisher-and-trump/) Moreover, your invective (“right-wing murderer & imperialist”) tells me you have a caricatured view of Clinton. (And weren’t you the one who wrote “foreign adventures by the likes of the … Clinton_ **s** _” and then admitted that the plural referred to just Hillary? :smack: Your “arguments” seem driven by emotion, not reason.) You admire Sanders and he will surely support Hillary strongly in the general election, as will most rational observers with your leanings. Do you think they’re all wrong? ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/130 "2016-05-21T06:15:58Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > You think they’re the right enemies, yet you also believe in the scandals they accuse her of? Shhh, he’s having a moment, don’t disrupt it with logic. Feel the Bern, flow with the Bro. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/131 "2016-05-21T07:51:29Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > :rolleyes: I’m not working for Bernie Sanders. Bernie and Hillary have both mostly played it smart and tried to keep the party together. > > What I’m trying to tell you is that the Democratic Party can’t win with a “Bush Doctrine” neocon at the top of the ticket. You fell for the line that she’s more electable, but by picking her you just alienated 20% or more of the coalition you needed to win. I’m sorry, but this is bigger than me not voting for her; even if I campaigned for her, she’d lose my state and most states. She’s not likable enough nor credible enough, and she’s _not on our side._ The Pubbies did a great job. They got you to buy it hook, line, and sinker. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/132 "2016-05-21T09:29:07Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > You make it sound like it’s _Bernie’s_ fault that people don’t vote for progressive candidates. :smack: > [@CarnalK](#): > > No, he’s saying it should be the focus of his attention. But it’s his _Presidential_ campaign that has aroused (or “galvanized”) progressives. He must focus on that for now, but he has endorsed [a “Brand New Congress” campaign started by some of his aides](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvGtVu8gmtg). ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/133 "2016-05-21T10:32:26Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I would prefer Sanders to Clinton as President. I have already had my opportunity to express that opinion at the ballot box, and I have done so. Having done so, I am now (or rather, will be soon) presented with another question: Do I prefer Clinton or Trump? And when the opportunity comes, I will express my opinion on that question at the ballot box, too. > > This isn’t complicated. At each stage of the process, you only have to make one decision. As things happened, Sanders is no longer one of the options. Choose from among those who are. I think this is the way to look at it. Despite being a Hillary supporter in 2008 and despite my skepticism over Obama’s lack of expereince, I wasted no time supporting Barack Obama and Organizing For America. The Bush administration, the GOP as a whole, and John McCain made that decision easy. If you truly support a progressive cause, then you live with the fact that a majority of other progressives might define it differently than you and you stand with them anyway. Otherwise, your supporting conservatives. I’ve never faulted Bernie or his supporters for believing and arguing that they’re the better alternative than Hillary, or that Hillary has flaws. I’ve never had a problem with them pointing out she’s a flawed and vulnerable candidate and that Bernie might at least have some appeal that she lacks. I think all of that is actually true. But the voters decided this one. Did Hillary have some winking and nodding, elbow nudging help from the DNC? Yeah, I don’t doubt it. Still, Obama was able to overcome it in 2008, whereas Bernie was not. Trying to use his movement and voting bloc to teach the Democratic party a lesson is irrational and is the worst example of voting against one’s own self-interest. And it’s also a sign of character weakness. I hope Bernie and most of his supporters don’t go that route. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/134 "2016-05-21T12:16:43Z")
[Clinton’s editorial today about childcare issues](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/hillary-clinton-child-care-now-costs-more-than-rent-heres-how-to-fix-this-crisis/2016/05/20/9055a200-1dd6-11e6-b6e0-c53b7ef63b45_story.html). She ain’t the same as Trump. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/135 "2016-05-21T13:15:58Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > [Clinton’s editorial today about childcare issues](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/hillary-clinton-child-care-now-costs-more-than-rent-heres-how-to-fix-this-crisis/2016/05/20/9055a200-1dd6-11e6-b6e0-c53b7ef63b45_story.html). She ain’t the same as Trump. Nobody’s the same as Trump. He’s arguably one of the greatest marketing and promotional geniuses of all time, and he knows how to generate cash flow. But those qualities in no way prepares him for the deadly serious job of being president. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/136 "2016-05-21T13:21:02Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Nobody’s the same as Trump. He’s arguably one of the greatest marketing and promotional geniuses of all time, and he knows how to generate cash flow. But those qualities in no way prepares him for the deadly serious job of being president. Well, right. But my point is to fellow Sanders supporters: disagreement or agreement with Clinton should be granular and issues-based. Sure, I strongly dislike certain stances on issues she’s taken, the Honduran coup high on that list. But if I’m going to criticize her for specific issues, I should also praise her for specific issues. Her stance on childcare is something praiseworthy as far as I’m concerned, and most folks on the left feel similarly; it’s also not a stance I’ve seen Trump take. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/137 "2016-05-21T13:43:54Z")
> [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](#): > > I’d say rather it merely makes you a part of the majority of the country. Full stop. Most people simply don’t think one side is all that much more evil than the other. Those are the people you should look at and ask why they don’t vote and give them a compelling reason to do so. If they’re not willing to look and think and decide for themselves, nobody else can make them. If you don’t vote, you don’t matter. Simple as that. And it’s your choice and your responsibility, not anyone else’s. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/138 "2016-05-21T14:02:51Z")
Although I give Trump much more credit for business savvy than some Dopers do, he’d be just another billionaire nobody’s heard of if it weren’t for his narcissistic urge to put his name on everything he touches. Yes, he’s a TV celebrity but Oprah Winfrey and Jerry Springer are much bigger. So … > [@asahi](#): > > He’s arguably one of the greatest marketing and promotional geniuses of all time … :eek: :smack: I agree with this totally … assuming “arguably” was a typo for “not.” ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/139 "2016-05-21T14:06:01Z")
Maybe the word “genius” makes you choke, I do get that, but, going by results, he’s certainly unequaled (except perhaps among those not named Kardashian) as an \*effective \*marketer and self-promoter. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/140 "2016-05-21T14:11:16Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Maybe the word “genius” makes you choke, I do get that, but, going by results, he’s certainly unequaled (except perhaps among those not named Kardashian) as an \*effective \*marketer and self-promoter. Yeah. I absolutely loath the guy, and it pains me to no end to admit it, but there is simply no arguing with the results. He has marketed and promoted himself successfully like few others alive have. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205.md?page=8)