# Hillary fans don't get it. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [May 20, 2016, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205 "2016-05-20T03:02:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/141 "2016-05-21T16:10:45Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Huh? Wha? Da fuq? My response entirely. As if you have to be Andrew Jackson to consider the Democratic Party as your own party. How irrational. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/142 "2016-05-21T16:17:21Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > _Your_ party? Are you Andrew Jackson? > > Fine. I suppose I will. Fantastic! Now, what can we do to get you off Bernie Sanders campaign, too? Because I just voted for him in the California primary, and you’re making me kinda regret that. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/143 "2016-05-21T16:43:34Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Fantastic! > > Now, what can we do to get you off Bernie Sanders campaign, too? Because I just voted for him in the California primary, and you’re making me kinda regret that. Bernie will be speaking about a mile and a half from my house tomorrow. I’m thinking a good sign to post by the street might be… TURN OUT THE LIGHT, IT’s OVER Hillary in 2016. But first, I’ll take the chairs to the back yard. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2016, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/144 "2016-05-22T00:28:20Z")
> [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](#): > > \*\*Most people simply don’t think one side is all that much more evil than the other. \*\* Remember, however, that there are more than two sides. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2016, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/145 "2016-05-22T00:58:46Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > That’s fair. > > I am being rational. > > I am being American in this. Not North-American, but _American._ Anyone who is against the Hispanoamerican Left to the degree that HRC or Mitt Romney is, is against me and I against them. > > I will not suffer through eight years of a right-wing murderer & imperialist trying to command the loyalty of leftists and progressives. > > In the immediate term, Clinton may be preferable to Trump, sure. But a Clinton win delays any leftward or counter-imperialist redirection within the Democratic Party. A Trump win, on the other hand, delays the ascendancy of the anti-government fanatic Rafael Edward Cruz. > > I think the play for the long game, for me, is to support neither Trump (bad immediately) nor Clinton (whose corrupt reputation and general regressiveness both hobble progress as I understand it). > > I am being rational. This is politics. Withholding my vote from someone who would damage the USA Left, and discredit me for voting for her, is rational. > > Bernie was not a perfect candidate, but he was at least credibly on the progressive side. Hillary just lines her own pockets. ☹ Do you agree with Bernie Sanders’ position that the US must cut off the flow of illegal immigration into the US because bringing massive numbers of poor Latinos into the US “makes us all poorer” and we need to “protect American workers”. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2016, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/146 "2016-05-22T00:59:49Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Remember, however, that there are more than two sides. But adults recognize that quite often they only have two choices. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2016, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/147 "2016-05-22T01:10:21Z")
Lucky to have two, most often. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2016, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/148 "2016-05-22T01:23:41Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > If you truly support a progressive cause, then you live with the fact that a majority of other progressives might define it differently than you and you stand with them anyway. Otherwise, your supporting conservatives. Funny, that’s the one think Hillary “$12” Clinton seems incapable of doing. “Do as I say, not as I do,” I guess? Whatever. No worries, Miller, I think I am done with Bernie’s presidential campaign. If he’s going to endorse Hillary, who cares? He wasn’t that great, anyway. Congress is where the real fight is now. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2016, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/149 "2016-05-22T01:26:03Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Do you agree with Bernie Sanders’ position that the US must cut off the flow of illegal immigration into the US because bringing massive numbers of poor Latinos into the US “makes us all poorer” and we need to “protect American workers”. Not really. But he seemed willing to stick up for Nicaraguan self-determination, once. Not perfect, just more likely to listen to anti-imperialism, I hope. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2016, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/150 "2016-05-22T01:33:13Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > But adults recognize that quite often they only have two choices. In this particular case, because it’s defined that way, yes. More generally, no. There are almost always other options, you just have to be perceptive enough to see them and be able to put them into action. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2016, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/151 "2016-05-22T01:46:59Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Do you agree with Bernie Sanders’ position that the US must cut off the flow of illegal immigration into the US because bringing massive numbers of poor Latinos into the US “makes us all poorer” and we need to “protect American workers”. No, but since that’s not [his position](https://berniesanders.com/issues/a-fair-and-humane-immigration-policy/), that doesn’t have anything to do with the discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Nonsuch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nonsuch/32/2922_2.png) [@Nonsuch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nonsuch)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2016, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/152 "2016-05-22T01:56:47Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > I think I am done with Bernie’s presidential campaign. If he’s going to endorse Hillary, who cares? He wasn’t that great, anyway. “His earlier stuff is way better.” ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2016, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/153 "2016-05-22T02:45:35Z")
Yeah, once you’ve heard his first album, you’ve pretty much heard 'em all. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2016, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/154 "2016-05-22T04:02:21Z")
Not everyone appreciates the urban grittiness of the “Vermont sound”. It also lacks the sharp ironic edge of polka music. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2016, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/155 "2016-05-22T05:25:32Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Not really. But he seemed willing to stick up for Nicaraguan self-determination, once. Not perfect, just more likely to listen to anti-imperialism, I hope. Supporting the shutting down of newspapers in Nicaragua is “sticking up for Nicaraguan self-determination”? That’s a rather odd definition. Would you be just as sanguine if he’d refused to condemn the slaughter of the Miskito Indians? How about if he’d defended it? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2016, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/156 "2016-05-22T05:38:35Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > No, but since that’s not [his position](https://berniesanders.com/issues/a-fair-and-humane-immigration-policy/), that doesn’t have anything to do with the discussion. Your source doesn’t contradict what I’m saying. He’s made it clear that while he does support a path to citizenship for those already in the US, but he hasn’t completely reversed his position since he tried to scuttle immigration reform back in 2007. He’s still made it clear he thinks those who support letting more undocumented workers come into the US are either right-wingers or puppets of the right wing. Here’s a recent interview of him by Neo-liberal Ezra Klein. [http://www.vox.com/2015/7/28/9014491/bernie-sanders-vox-conversation](http://www.vox.com/2015/7/28/9014491/bernie-sanders-vox-conversation) > [@](#): > > Ezra Klein > You said being a democratic socialist means a more international view.\*\* I think if you take global poverty that seriously, it leads you to conclusions that in the US are considered out of political bounds. Things like sharply raising the level of immigration we permit, even up to a level of open borders. About sharply increasing\*\* … > > Bernie Sanders > **Open borders? No, that’s a Koch brothers proposal.** > > Ezra Klein > Really? > > Bernie Sanders > Of course. That’s a right-wing proposal, which says essentially there is no United States. … > > Ezra Klein > But it would make … > > Bernie Sanders > Excuse me … > > Ezra Klein > It would make a lot of global poor richer, wouldn’t it? > > Bernie Sanders > \*\*It would make everybody in America poorer \*\*—\*\*you’re doing away with the concept of a nation state, and I don’t think there’s any country in the world that believes in that. If you believe in a nation state or in a country called the United States or UK or Denmark or any other country, you have an obligation in my view to do everything we can to help poor people. What right-wing people in this country would love is an open-border policy. Bring in all kinds of people, work for $2 or $3 an hour, that would be great for them. I don’t believe in that. \*\*I think we have to raise wages in this country, I think we have to do everything we can to create millions of jobs. > > You know what youth unemployment is in the United States of America today? If you’re a white high school graduate, it’s 33 percent, Hispanic 36 percent, African American 51 percent. You think we should open the borders and bring in a lot of low-wage workers, or do you think maybe we should try to get jobs for those kids? > > **I think from a moral responsibility we’ve got to work with the rest of the industrialized world to address the problems of international poverty, but you don’t do that by making people in this country even poorer**. He’s still the same Bernie Sanders in 2007 who squealed that letting in unskilled Latino workers was bad for American workers and would depress their wages. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2016, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/157 "2016-05-22T10:59:05Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Your source doesn’t contradict what I’m saying. He’s made it clear that while he does support a path to citizenship for those already in the US, but he hasn’t completely reversed his position since he tried to scuttle immigration reform back in 2007. > > He’s still made it clear he thinks those who support letting more undocumented workers come into the US are either right-wingers or puppets of the right wing. > > Here’s a recent interview of him by Neo-liberal Ezra Klein. > > [http://www.vox.com/2015/7/28/9014491/bernie-sanders-vox-conversation](http://www.vox.com/2015/7/28/9014491/bernie-sanders-vox-conversation) > He’s still the same Bernie Sanders in 2007 who squealed that letting in unskilled Latino workers was bad for American workers and would depress their wages. So here’s the thing. Your earlier post was, deliberately or not, really misleading. Now you’re doubling down on it. “Squealed”? Bullshit. That review involved his refusal to call for completely open borders. Are you saying with a straight face that your earlier paraphrase is an accurate paraphrase of that? There are specific immigration structures that are designed to promote human happiness, to help people further their own dreams. THeir are other immigration structures that are designed to promote profit. It’d be very foolish to deny that different immigration structures exist. So if you’re asking if I think that we should > [@](#): > > cut off the flow of illegal immigration into the US because bringing massive numbers of poor Latinos into the US “makes us all poorer” and we need to “protect American workers” then of course not. But if you’re asking if I think that we should > [@Sanders](#): > > Pave the way for a swift and fair legislative roadmap to citizenship for the eleven million undocumented immigrants… > Regulate the future flow of immigrants by modernizing the visa system and rewriting bad trade agreements… > establish a whistleblower visa for workers reporting labor violations… > Expand Access to Counsel for Immigrants… > Protect and Expand the Legal Rights of Immigrant Workers. …then I agree. It would behoove you to address Sanders’s actual proposals instead of straw men versions of them. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2016, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/158 "2016-05-22T14:56:03Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Whatever. No worries, Miller, I think I am done with Bernie’s presidential campaign. If he’s going to endorse Hillary, who cares? He wasn’t that great, anyway. Congress is where the real fight is now. And this is exactly why I have felt comfortable dismissing the Bernie movement as an internet movement composed of #FairWeatherFriends with a #ShortAttentionSpan. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2016, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/159 "2016-05-22T16:30:02Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > It would behoove you to address Sanders’s actual proposals instead of straw men versions of them. Proposals? Those are PowerPoint bullets. Where are the Senate bills? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2016, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/160 "2016-05-22T18:03:36Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > … I think I am done with Bernie’s presidential campaign. If he’s going to endorse Hillary, who cares? He wasn’t that great, anyway. I also admire Sanders the left-winger, although I doubt he’d make a particularly good President. One advantage of his more extreme ideas, unworkable in the short-term however good they might be in theory, is that they’d not be enacted anytime soon. Picking the blusterer who’s embraced right-wing ideas to meld with his idiocies as your second choice seems odd. Unless you’re one of the many Americans whose priority is the Second Amendment; is that it? But now Sanders will do _what he’s always said he will do_ when his run fails:\*\*\* endorse and strongly support the woman who has worked for progressive ideals\*\*\* with much greater success than Sanders, the woman who frightens the right-wing so much they’re now rallying around the nincompoop. And this causes **foolsguinea** to lose interest in Bernie? :eek: I hate to say it since you and I have often been in agreement in past threads, but … well, open a BBQ Pit thread if you really want to know how I feel about your peculiar reversal. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205.md?page=9)