# Hillary fans don't get it. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [May 20, 2016, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205 "2016-05-20T03:02:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![ATLHawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/94ad74/32.png) [@ATLHawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ATLHawk)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2016, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/161 "2016-05-22T18:17:13Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I also admire Sanders the left-winger, although I doubt he’d make a particularly good President. One advantage of his more extreme ideas, unworkable in the short-term however good they might be in theory, is that they’d not be enacted anytime soon. > > Picking the blusterer who’s embraced right-wing ideas to meld with his idiocies as your second choice seems odd. Unless you’re one of the many Americans whose priority is the Second Amendment; is that it? > > But now Sanders will do _what he’s always said he will do_ when his run fails:\*\*\* endorse and strongly support the woman who has worked for progressive ideals\*\*\* with much greater success than Sanders, the woman who frightens the right-wing so much they’re now rallying around the nincompoop. And this causes **foolsguinea** to lose interest in Bernie? :eek: > > I hate to say it since you and I have often been in agreement in past threads, but … well, open a BBQ Pit thread if you really want to know how I feel about your peculiar reversal. Get ready to say it: President Donald J. Trump ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2016, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/162 "2016-05-22T18:26:20Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Proposals? Those are PowerPoint bullets. Where are the Senate bills? There certainly is the way he tried to scuttle comprehensive immigration reform in 2007. You can look up on YouTube some interviews of him and Lou Dobbs. ---
**Author:** ![Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/do_not_taunt/32/2968_2.png) [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Do_Not_Taunt)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2016, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/163 "2016-05-22T20:47:10Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > So here’s the thing. Your earlier post was, deliberately or not, really misleading. Now you’re doubling down on it. “Squealed”? Bullshit. I don’t know - I read the Sanders quote above, and I think this is a reasonable extrapolation. What he’s basically saying is that every immigrant coming in takes a job away from American youth and pushes wages lower, and he prioritizes those American jobs over letting foreigners come in to relieve their own poverty. If his position is really that _some_ immigration - particularly some _unskilled_ immigration - is okay, he’s going to have to actually explain how he squares that with his above beliefs. Do you have any cites that he does so? Or that he even has a different position? ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2016, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/164 "2016-05-23T04:37:06Z")
> [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](#): > > If his position is really that _some_ immigration - particularly some _unskilled_ immigration - is okay, he’s going to have to actually explain how he squares that with his above beliefs. Do you have any cites that he does so? Or that he even has a different position? The thing is if this was Hillary Clinton or any other politician, we’d be talking about a dishonest flip flop. That’s exactly what Sanders has done here - changed his position because he knew he couldn’t get votes with the old one. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2016, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/165 "2016-05-23T10:41:15Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Proposals? Those are PowerPoint bullets. Where are the Senate bills? In the linked full proposal. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2016, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/166 "2016-05-23T12:39:40Z")
> [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](#): > > I don’t know - I read the Sanders quote above, and I think this is a reasonable extrapolation. What he’s basically saying is that every immigrant coming in takes a job away from American youth and pushes wages lower, and he prioritizes those American jobs over letting foreigners come in to relieve their own poverty. That’s not at all how I read his statement. There’s a real excluded middle here: people seem to be saying that you’re either in favor of completely open borders, as Klein is pushing him to say, or else you’re some sort of xenophobic nativist. Sanders’s position seems to be somewhere in the middle. I cited his detailed position, and you’re welcome to read it. Certainly that seems to be a better indication of his actual position than his off-the-cuff answer to a push interview question. > [@ISiddiqui](#): > > The thing is if this was Hillary Clinton or any other politician, we’d be talking about a dishonest flip flop. That’s exactly what Sanders has done here - changed his position because he knew he couldn’t get votes with the old one. Exactly, except that it’s not a changed position, rather it’s a refusal to adopt a position he never took (that is, Sanders never, that I’m aware of, advocated for completely open borders), and also except that I think it’s insane to criticize politicians for “dishonest flip-flops”, since it’s a fantastic thing when a politician changes from a bad position to a good one, and we should make that easier for politicians to do, not harder. But other than those two things you’re totally right :). ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2016, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/167 "2016-05-23T12:42:13Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > That’s not at all how I read his statement. There’s a real excluded middle here: people seem to be saying that you’re either in favor of completely open borders, as Klein is pushing him to say, or else you’re some sort of xenophobic nativist. > > Sanders’s position seems to be somewhere in the middle. I cited his detailed position, and you’re welcome to read it. Certainly that seems to be a better indication of his actual position than his off-the-cuff answer to a push interview question. I agree that “open borders” is not the opposite of “xenophobic nativist.” Where I don’t necessarily agree is whether a politician’s response to a “push interview question” can be looked at as their actual policy. I think it can share the weight with a prepared position paper. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2016, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/168 "2016-05-23T12:45:11Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I agree that “open borders” is not the opposite of “xenophobic nativist.” > > Where I don’t necessarily agree is whether a politician’s response to a “push interview question” can be looked at as their actual policy. I think it can share the weight with a prepared position paper. Fair enough. But reread Klein’s question. It was a lousy question, IMO: it basically said, “If you believe the things you claim to believe, then it must lead to other beliefs you’ve never claimed to have.” Sanders then denies having those beliefs Klein said he must have, and explained why. It’s not at all a contradiction of other positions he’s held, but it may look like it since most of the time Sanders is arguing for so much openness in immigration policy, and when Klein pushes him to the extreme position, for the first time he argues against a level of openness in immigration policy. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2016, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/169 "2016-05-23T12:46:50Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Fair enough. But reread Klein’s question. It was a lousy question, IMO: it basically said, “If you believe the things you claim to believe, then it must lead to other beliefs you’ve never claimed to have.” Sanders then denies having those beliefs Klein said he must have, and explained why. It’s not at all a contradiction of other positions he’s held, but it may look like it since most of the time Sanders is arguing for so much openness in immigration policy, and when Klein pushes him to the extreme position, for the first time he argues against a level of openness in immigration policy. Sorry, I wasn’t clear. I agree with you about this interview and question. I was disagreeing on the larger point of what an interview means. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2016, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/170 "2016-05-23T12:49:44Z")
I think Sanders’ position isn’t in the excluded middle so much as it’s in the excluded muddle. Sanders has shown an inability to take sides when there are two legitimate leftish instincts in conflict. Paul Krugman has stated it succintly: you can either have a liberal immigration policy or you can have a generous welfare state. You cannot have both. And that’s not even getting into the conflict between the needs of low skill American workers and what mass immigration does to their economic prospects. Since the Klein interview, sanders chose the path of less resistance: just favor a liberal immigration policy. ---
**Author:** ![Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/do_not_taunt/32/2968_2.png) [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Do_Not_Taunt)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2016, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/171 "2016-05-23T15:31:05Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > That’s not at all how I read his statement. There’s a real excluded middle here: people seem to be saying that you’re either in favor of completely open borders, as Klein is pushing him to say, or else you’re some sort of xenophobic nativist. I assume you’re referring to [this](https://berniesanders.com/issues/a-fair-and-humane-immigration-policy/), which I admit I missed earlier. I skimmed through that. Did I miss the part where he talked about his thoughts on the current level of immigration to the US? Is it too high? Is it too low? Perfect as-is? Does Sanders even have an opinion? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2016, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/172 "2016-05-23T16:05:08Z")
> [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](#): > > I assume you’re referring to [this](https://berniesanders.com/issues/a-fair-and-humane-immigration-policy/), which I admit I missed earlier. I skimmed through that. Did I miss the part where he talked about his thoughts on the current level of immigration to the US? Is it too high? Is it too low? Perfect as-is? Does Sanders even have an opinion? I don’t think he phrases it in terms of whether the absolute number is too high or too low, but every specific proposal of his I’ve seen increases opportunities for legal immigration; the effect of his proposals would almost certainly be to raise immigration numbers. Examples: > [@](#): > > As President, Senator Sanders would expand the Administration’s parole-in-place policies to include undocumented relatives of U.S. citizens and lawful permanent residents and also provide deferred action for relatives who came to the U.S. on a visa but fell out of status. > … > As President, Senator Sanders will expand President Obama’s Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) program and the Deferred Action for Parents of Americans (DAPA) to provide broad administrative relief to the parents of DREAMers, the parents of citizens, the parents of legal permanent residents, and other immigrants who would have been given legal protections by the 2013 Senate-passed immigration bill. > … > Legislatively, a Sanders Administration would establish a whistleblower visa for workers reporting labor violations. Administratively, Senator Sanders would establish an affirmative process for these individuals to request deferred action. > … > As President, Senator Sanders will expand the use of humanitarian parole to ensure the return of unjustly deported immigrants. > … > Senator Sanders will work to ensure that the roadmap to citizenship is inclusive, particularly for women and does not contain arbitrary cut off eligibility dates and application periods. Such dates risk excluding hundreds of thousands of people that have arrived in the United States “too late” but have become part of the American fabric. > … > Senator Sanders rejects the so-called “merit-based” “social engineering” immigration policies that discriminate against women. In addition to upholding the family-based visa system, he will work to ensure that mothers, sisters and wives who come into the United States with their families have the same right to work as their male relatives while enhancing protections for survivors of gender-based violence and human trafficking. > … > In light of the Syrian refugee crisis, a Sanders Administration would continue to welcome refugees to the US and meet our international responsibilities. > … > There are approximately nine million lawful permanent residents who are eligible to naturalize and become citizens but do not due to financial obstacles. As such, it is well past time to for Congress to appropriate resources to strengthen the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services’ (USCIS) budget and to reduce application fees. High fees for immigration benefits, especially naturalization, act as a deterrent for aspiring Americans to embrace U.S. citizenship and are not in keeping with the American immigrant tradition. ---
**Author:** ![Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/do_not_taunt/32/2968_2.png) [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Do_Not_Taunt)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2016, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/173 "2016-05-23T17:55:52Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I don’t think he phrases it in terms of whether the absolute number is too high or too low, but every specific proposal of his I’ve seen increases opportunities for legal immigration; the effect of his proposals would almost certainly be to raise immigration numbers. > > Examples: Sanders seems to want to make the process more humane as a whole and reduce deportations of those already in the US, both of which are great. But he’s not really saying anything about people who are outside the US and want to come here (other than refugees.) The fact that he seems to think that low-wage immigrants take jobs from Americans and drive down wages is telling. I’m still not convinced that the reasonable extrapolation from that is that he would largely close the doors to low-skill immigrants not presently in the US (or “unjustly deported”) is mis-stating his position. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2016, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/174 "2016-05-23T19:48:37Z")
> [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](#): > > The fact that he seems to think that low-wage immigrants take jobs from Americans and drive down wages is telling. I’m still not convinced that the reasonable extrapolation from that is that he would largely close the doors to low-skill immigrants not presently in the US (or “unjustly deported”) is mis-stating his position. Then find something–anything–showing that in, say, the past five years he’s unambiguously supported reducing the numbers of low-skill immigrants. An interview in which he refused to adopt the extreme position of absolutely open borders obviously doesn’t suffice. If you can’t find any evidence of him taking that position, despite his many statements on immigration, then yeah, it IS an unreasonable extrapolation. ---
**Author:** ![Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/do_not_taunt/32/2968_2.png) [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Do_Not_Taunt)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2016, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/175 "2016-05-23T20:03:57Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Then find something–anything–showing that in, say, the past five years he’s unambiguously supported reducing the numbers of low-skill immigrants. An interview in which he refused to adopt the extreme position of absolutely open borders obviously doesn’t suffice. > > If you can’t find any evidence of him taking that position, despite his many statements on immigration, then yeah, it IS an unreasonable extrapolation. No. I fully admit that the evidence here is ambiguous. From that, you seem to be drawing a firm conclusion (of course he favors open immigration!), whereas I am simply observing that another possibility can be reasonably inferred from statements he’s made. If you want to persist in believing that unless he’s made solid statements opposing low-skill immigration, then he must clearly be in favor, you may do so, but don’t expect others to adopt your ‘logic.’ ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2016, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/176 "2016-05-23T22:45:33Z")
I’m not a big fan of Clinton (but I will be voting for her over Trump) and from the sidelines it seems that right now Sanders and his supporters are bitter and acting like sore losers: if their Sanders can’t win they’ll take their ball and go home. I’m hoping that after the DNC and some of the bitterness has subsided that they’ll come around to the idea that HRC is a much better president than Trump and vote for her. It will help if Sanders throws in his support. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2016, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/177 "2016-05-23T23:02:44Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Paul Krugman has stated it succintly: you can either have a liberal immigration policy or you can have a generous welfare state. You cannot have both. And that’s not even getting into the conflict between the needs of low skill American workers and what mass immigration does to their economic prospects. That’s a Milton Friedman quote, I believe. I don’t recall PRK saying that. ETA: And of course, lots of Western countries have had moderately liberal immigration rules and moderately generous welfare states. Friedman (or whoever) was glibly excluding vast tracts of middle ground. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2016, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/178 "2016-05-23T23:14:17Z")
That comment doesn’t exclude the middle ground. The opposite in fact - it says those two extremes can’t coexist. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2016, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/179 "2016-05-23T23:20:39Z")
[Interesting op-ed](http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/23/opinion/campaign-stops/do-sanders-supporters-favor-his-policies.html?ref=opinion&_r=1) in the Times about the possible lack of ideological divide between Sanders and Clinton voters: > [@](#): > > More detailed evidence casts further doubt on the notion that support for Mr. Sanders reflects a shift to the left in the policy preferences of Democrats. In a survey conducted for the American National Election Studies in late January, supporters of Mr. Sanders were more pessimistic than Mrs. Clinton’s supporters about “opportunity in America today for the average person to get ahead” and more likely to say that economic inequality had increased. > > However, they were less likely than Mrs. Clinton’s supporters to favor concrete policies that Mr. Sanders has offered as remedies for these ills, including a higher minimum wage, increasing government spending on health care and an expansion of government services financed by higher taxes. It is quite a stretch to view these people as the vanguard of a new, social-democratic-trending Democratic Party. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2016, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205/180 "2016-05-23T23:32:02Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > I’m not a big fan of Clinton (but I will be voting for her over Trump) and from the sidelines it seems that right now Sanders and his supporters are bitter and acting like sore losers: if their Sanders can’t win they’ll take their ball and go home. Refusing to vote for someone you don’t want to be President isn’t being a sore loser, _it’s why voting exists_. Supporting Sanders doesn’t make one obliged to support Clinton any more than supporting Bush makes one obliged to support Trump. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-fans-dont-get-it/755205.md?page=10)