# Hillary in '08 **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 12, 2005, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-in-08/321351 "2005-09-12T22:59:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2005, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-in-08/321351/101 "2005-09-18T16:55:35Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > From your beloved Ms. Coulter, of course. > > And your attempt to dismiss my statement vs. **Walloon’s** as a semantic trifle is intellectually dishonest – as if being under enemy fire is a mere trifle, like the shape of a cumulus cloud on a bright autumn day… Holy hypocrisy, Batman!! Talk about a post that is intellectually dishonest… Can we have a cite that supports your characterization of Coulter as being “beloved” by **Bricker**? I’m sure he will be able to show you many in which he derrided her. You claimed \*\*Walloon \*\*was perpetuating the myth that the loss of limbs occured during a drinking accident when **he made no such claim**. His post contained an error, which \*\*Bricker \*\*acknowledge, but not the error you claimed it contained. Are you going to retract your claim, or let that factual error stand? ---
**Author:** ![middleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9a140/32.png) [@middleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/middleman)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-in-08/321351/102 "2005-09-19T01:29:18Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > The extreme speed and vigor with which conservative minds snap shut on the topic of Hillary is what makes her most attractive to me. It also may be what allows another very conservative President to be elected. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-in-08/321351/103 "2005-09-19T05:50:06Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > You claimed \*\*Walloon \*\*was perpetuating the myth that the loss of limbs occured during a drinking accident when **he made no such claim**. No, I claimed **Walloon** claimed that Max Cleland lost his limbs while horsing around with pals and a grenade got loose, when in reality they were under enemy fire in a dangerous situation. The “drinking accident” was merely a reference to Ann Coulter’s original smear that Mr. Cleland lost his limbs in a non-combat moment of frivolity. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-in-08/321351/104 "2005-09-19T06:03:54Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > No, I claimed **Walloon** claimed that Max Cleland lost his limbs while horsing around with pals and a grenade got loose Go to the previous page. I said nothing of the sort. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-in-08/321351/105 "2005-09-19T06:11:54Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > No, I claimed **Walloon** claimed that Max Cleland lost his limbs while horsing around with pals and a grenade got loose, when in reality they were under enemy fire in a dangerous situation. The “drinking accident” was merely a reference to Ann Coulter’s original smear that Mr. Cleland lost his limbs in a non-combat moment of frivolity. No, you claimed that he: > [@rjung](#): > > …demonstrated the pervasive effectiveness of the right-wing smear machine by **perpetuating Ann Coulter’s lie that Max Cleland lost his limbs in a drinking accident**! emphasis added. You have clearly claimed that Walloon perpetrated the lie that it was a drinking accident. If you didn’t mean that, you can retract it, but that IS what you wrote. You should also note that \*\*Walloon \*\*did not (per your quote above) claime that MC was “horsing around with his pals”. You need to retract that, too. Walloon said: > [@Walloon](#): > > It happened during a routine non-combat mission at a radio relay station. He picked up what turned out to be a live grenade dropped by a colleague. Since when does “non-combat mission” = “horsing around”? I’m sure you’ll want to set the record straight by retracting both of your statements, since you wouldn’t want anyone to think that you deliberately misrepresented another poster’s views. Here’s your chance to make sure no one thinks that. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-in-08/321351/106 "2005-09-19T12:15:46Z")
> [@middleman](#): > > It also may be what allows another very conservative President to be elected. Nah, the phenom is strictly conservative in nature, and they wouldn’t vote Dem anyway, even if Bush was found with the proverbial dead Jeff Gannon. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-in-08/321351/107 "2005-09-19T12:36:13Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Nah, the phenom is strictly conservative in nature… BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!! > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Got a cite for that? > > See above. You know better. You’re right, I should know better than to expect you to back up what you say. That would imply “I am willing to engage in honest debate” rather than “I pulled this out of my ass”. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Right? Right. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-in-08/321351/108 "2005-09-19T13:34:52Z")
**Shodan** , very seriously: Are you trying to actually \*convince \* anyone else of the correctness of your views? Or are you simply having fun bashing people on as elementary a basis as it takes for you to feel you have a solid footing? What do you think you’re actually accomplishing by your “participation” here? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-in-08/321351/109 "2005-09-19T14:06:40Z")
In other words, no cites. Right? Regards, Shodan PS - No, you haven’t produced any cites. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-in-08/321351/110 "2005-09-19T16:40:24Z")
Scroll up. :rolleyes: So you really aren’t trying to convince anyone of your correctness, right? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-in-08/321351/111 "2005-09-19T17:15:30Z")
Still nothing, eh? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-in-08/321351/112 "2005-09-19T18:18:17Z")
I have to go with the folks who know Hillary’s actual gifts or deficits are for all practical purposes inconsequential next to the smearmongering shitstorm an HC candidacy would precipitate. It’d be all the sordid filth of the BC years to the tenth power, and I just don’t see how anyone should have to stomach it, be they fans of Hillary or no. It’s not fair, right, or anything else from the ideal fantasy world of Planet Fair Play, but an HC candidacy in '08, or probably ever, is simply not something I’d like to see the Democratic party be subjected to. It’s not so much a desire to shirk from a fight as it is to avoid rolling in the propagandist fecal matter with the Republican PR swine for yet another round. Some scraps just aren’t worth winning. Surely there must be _somebody_ else. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-in-08/321351/113 "2005-09-19T19:06:36Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > I’m sure you’ll want to set the record straight by retracting both of your statements, since you wouldn’t want anyone to think that you deliberately misrepresented another poster’s views. Here’s your chance to make sure no one thinks that. I’ll state for the record that anyone who attempts to impunge Mr. Cleland’s record by making it sound like he lost his limbs in a non-combat moment of frivolity will feel the righteous smack of my red-white-and-blue Clue-By-Four™ sitting under my desk. If **Walloon** _wasn’t_ trying to impunge Mr. Cleland’s sacrifice (though I have to wonder why he brought up the issue if he didn’t), then I’ll give him a pass. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > **Shodan,** very seriously: Are you trying to actually _convince_ anyone else of the correctness of your views? You mean besides himself? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-in-08/321351/114 "2005-09-19T19:36:58Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > I’ll state for the record that anyone who attempts to impunge Mr. Cleland’s record by making it sound like he lost his limbs in a non-combat moment of frivolity will feel the righteous smack of my red-white-and-blue Clue-By-Four™ sitting under my desk. If **Walloon** _wasn’t_ trying to impunge Mr. Cleland’s sacrifice (though I have to wonder why he brought up the issue if he didn’t), then I’ll give him a pass. Nice attempt at dodging the question. Let’s assume that \*\*Walloon \*\*did intend to impunge on MC’s sacrifice. You still significantly distorted his post not once but twice. When both he and I pointed this out, you changed the subject. It’s possible to give someone a righeous smack without distorting what they say, btw. But that assumes, of course, that a righteous smack was deserved in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-in-08/321351/115 "2005-09-19T19:39:06Z")
Forgot to add… I’m done with this little digression, **rjung**. Don’t expect further responses from me. I rest my case, and suggest that we return to the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-in-08/321351/116 "2005-09-19T23:08:30Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > If **Walloon** _wasn’t_ trying to impunge Mr. Cleland’s sacrifice (though I have to wonder why he brought up the issue if he didn’t), then I’ll give him a pass. I didn’t bring it up. **middleman** did. ---
**Author:** ![middleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9a140/32.png) [@middleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/middleman)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-in-08/321351/117 "2005-09-19T23:25:09Z")
In all fairness, I did bring it up. I had no idea that the subject was as deep as it was. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Controvert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dec6dc/32.png) [@The\_Controvert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Controvert)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-in-08/321351/118 "2005-09-21T16:08:17Z")
Up to now, the main complaints against Hillary '08 are: 1. Strange, inexplicable negative “feeling” about her as a person. 2. Fear of potential slander and controversy. 3. Fear of lopsided defeat resulting in repercussions for future female candidates. 4. Fear of Republicans having control for another 4 years. 5. Fear of Hillary actually winning. Here’s my take on this. If you dislike Hillary for personal reasons, then why not wish many years of crushing pressure under a microscope on her? If you dislike slander, then rise above it. Do your research on the issues that matter and have faith that others will do the same. If you’re holding out for a “better” female candidate, then stop that. There isn’t one right now. Doesn’t matter if she wins or loses, just trying and running makes a difference. It did when Geraldine Ferraro was the first veep candidate. It even makes a difference when Annika Sorenstam plays with the male golfers. These actions open doors not shuts them. If you can’t stand the Republicans in power, then move to Canada. Otherwise, find solace in the fact that it probably can’t get any worse than it is already. If you can’t stand the idea of Hillary winning, then again, console yourself with the notion that she couldn’t possibly do a worse job than the current guy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-in-08/321351.md?page=5)