# Hillary & Kamala vs. Biden & Trump **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** trump, kamala-harris\ **Created:** [August 27, 2024, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-kamala-vs-biden-trump/1006327 "2024-08-27T20:31:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2024, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-kamala-vs-biden-trump/1006327/21 "2024-08-28T11:10:02Z")
Using a first name is a mark of familiarity, of course. TRUMP is meant to convey authority, whereas Tim and Kamala are meant to be friendly. Calling a lady you don’t know by her first name may seem too friendly? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2024, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-kamala-vs-biden-trump/1006327/22 "2024-09-01T15:24:30Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > One reason is surely that, in Western society historically, women commonly change their last names, while men don’t. Historically it was also men who served in the military, where addressing people by their last name is the default. As a result, even in non-military situations, addressing a man by his last name seems “manlier”. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2024, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-kamala-vs-biden-trump/1006327/23 "2024-09-01T16:02:18Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > The one combo I don’t use is Mrs. Clinton. That’s because of you’re going that direction you should use Ms. Clinton. That’s the marriage-status-neutral term that is preferred usage. That’s supposed to be “mizz”, but sadly here it lapses to “miss”. Here’s an article on the whole first name thing. > **[Why referring to Kamala Harris by her first name could hurt her campaign](https://www.newsweek.com/kamala-harris-first-name-women-politics-campaign-impacts-1943804)** > > Experts explain how women in politics face a tension between being seen as authoritative and approachable. I had forgotten Hillary Clinton had also branded her campaign that way. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2024, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-kamala-vs-biden-trump/1006327/24 "2024-09-01T16:27:30Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > That’s supposed to be “mizz”, but sadly here it lapses to “miss”. Where / what / who do you mean by “here”? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2024, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-kamala-vs-biden-trump/1006327/25 "2024-09-01T16:47:55Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Historically it was also men who served in the military, where addressing people by their last name is the default. I was thinking of mentioning that, too, but then that just pushes the question back one step, to why militaries usually use last names. Another factor that occurs to me is that there are more female first names than male first names. Just about every male first name has a female variant, or sometimes even multiple, but there are also plenty of female first names that don’t have any male equivalent. This may be part of the reason for the military practice: There are sure to be many "Private John"s, but not so many "Private Smith"s, and even fewer of most last names. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2024, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-kamala-vs-biden-trump/1006327/26 "2024-09-01T18:06:33Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Where / what / who do you mean by “here”? Texas. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2024, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-kamala-vs-biden-trump/1006327/27 "2024-09-01T18:48:12Z")
Just as a data point, i have read literally thousands of essays where students are analyizing speeches and other works of rhetoric. Its the sort of writing where you should refer to the speaker by their last name. I’d say they have a tendency to call women by their first name a little more often, but its not overwhelming. There’s also a bias: when a kid writes "George wrote . . " instead of “Washington wrote” it feels like simple ignorance and quicky dismiss it. When they say “Sonia wrote” instead of “Sotomayor wrote”, it bugs me more, because it feels sexist. But maybe the kid who wrote “Sonia” would’ve written “George”. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2024, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-kamala-vs-biden-trump/1006327/28 "2024-09-01T19:00:33Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > > [@LSLGuy](#): > > > > Where / what / who do you mean by “here”? > > Texas. It’s really useful to put your general location in your profile so it’ll show up when people click on your avatar. Or at least when those of us who know to do that try it. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2024, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-kamala-vs-biden-trump/1006327/29 "2024-09-01T19:32:15Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > With Hillary, it was to differentiate her from Bill Clinton. Right. But on this board and elsewhere I say Harris, hardly ever Kamala, and I use _Joe_ for the prez more than Kamala. > [@BigT](#): > > Don’t forget one other candidate who went by his first name: Bernie Sanders. Good point. Also JFK and LBJ. > [@Chronos](#): > > With exceptions like Buttigieg, where the name is so distinctive that nobody knows how to say or spell it. I cheat and say “Mayor Pete”- which iirc is a nickname he likes. And here we call trump all sorts of names… 🤪 So, other than Hillary to distinguish her from Bill, which is kinda needed- I think the OP is incorrect. I have never called the Veep just Kamala when talking. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2024, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-kamala-vs-biden-trump/1006327/30 "2024-09-01T20:14:35Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > > [@LSLGuy](#): > > > > Where / what / who do you mean by “here”? > > Texas. Thank you. In addition to @thorny_locust’s good point I’ll ask for more clarification. Are you saying that in Texas, or at least your region and SES of Texas, people pronounce “Ms.” as close to or identical to “Miss” as a matter of accent, or are you suggesting they reject the notion of “Ms.” as a matter of culture and substitute the word “Miss” in protest? Your overly succinct sentence > [@Irishman](#): > > That’s supposed to be “mizz”, but sadly here it lapses to “miss”. could be read either way. Which is why I included the “what / who” to my own overly succinct sentence that didn’t convey my intended meaning to my intended audience. Oops on me. ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2024, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-kamala-vs-biden-trump/1006327/31 "2024-09-01T20:48:06Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > With exceptions like Buttigieg, where the name is so distinctive that nobody knows how to say or spell it. I nver knew until recently (we were watching the DNC and wondered about it while he was speaking) that it’s a Maltese name And it means “chicken owner!” > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > > [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > > > Gingrich was likely called Newt > > Then he got better. Sadly, he didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2024, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-kamala-vs-biden-trump/1006327/32 "2024-09-01T20:48:30Z")
I know that when I (in Ohio) try to say “Ms” (which I always do when referring to a woman in a situation where a title would be appropriate, unless she’s told me otherwise or she’s “Dr.” or some other prestigious title instead), it often ends up coming out closer to “Miss”, unless I’m making a conscious effort to enunciate. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2024, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-kamala-vs-biden-trump/1006327/33 "2024-09-01T20:59:52Z")
Personally I find myself using Harris most of the time. While writing it’s because it just feels right. When speaking it’s because my stupid brain always wants to pronounce it like the wrestler. Adolescent programming is hard to get past. As in many areas, Trump is a unique case. The name has been a brand for most of my life. I’ve been seeing buildings with “Trump” plastered over them for as long as I can remember. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2024, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-kamala-vs-biden-trump/1006327/34 "2024-09-01T22:13:23Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > > [@PhillyGuy](#): > > > > The one combo I don’t use is Mrs. Clinton. > > That’s because of you’re going that direction you should use Ms. Clinton. That’s the marriage-status-neutral term that is preferred usage. At risk of starting a new round of New York Times bashing, I will point out that they refer to Mrs. Clinton but Ms. Harris. It can be seen repeatedly in this August 19, 2024 article: [Hillary Clinton and Kamala Harris: Inside Their Quietly Close Bond](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/19/us/politics/hillary-clinton-kamala-harris.html?unlocked_article_code=1.HU4.j9HB.b947CnvJ6yvN&smid=url-share) > [@](#): > > The last time Mrs. Clinton stood on the convention stage, dressed in suffragist white, she thought she was on track to be the next president. Much has happened since then — from Mrs. Clinton’s grief over and eventual acceptance of her 2016 loss, to the rise of a new generation of Democratic leaders. > . . . > The two women didn’t have much of a relationship before 2020 and Ms. Harris’s ascension to the vice presidency. They were on opposite sides of the 2008 presidential primary between Barack Obama and Mrs. Clinton. Ms. Harris was among the first Democratic elected officials to endorse the Illinois senator and worked hard for his election. Their policy is to ask the most prominent women which title they prefer. Otherwise they go with Ms. (Sorry, I have no link for this factoid.) Except in a post like this, I would not use Mrs. or Miss, on this board, because readers would focus on that rather than the rest of the post. . . ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2024, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-kamala-vs-biden-trump/1006327/35 "2024-09-02T03:12:24Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Are you saying that in Texas, or at least your region and SES of Texas, people pronounce “Ms.” as close to or identical to “Miss” as a matter of accent, or are you suggesting they reject the notion of “Ms.” as a matter of culture and substitute the word “Miss” in protest? It’s a hard call. To be more specific, I will say that my encounter is most explicit through my karate group. We are taught to address instructors by sir or ma’am, and “Mr.” or “Miss”. Now technically this is all from the direction of one person, the founder of the organization, and he’s a little old school. We’ll, now he’s also a little senile, but I’ve been at this a while. So it may be much for me to be projecting on anything outside that group. The original group is Houston based, but has offshoots in Austin, New Braunfels, Longview, a couple other smaller towns, and the branch In currently with out of the Dallas northern suburbs. But even though this offshoot is a step removed from the base and has altered a number of policies and descriptions, it retains that element, and the local North Texas folk have never commented on it, even the ultra liberal woman who usually keeps the group in check. So I’m possibly projecting a little, but I’m apparently the only one to notice, or at least say anything. If I had to guess, I’d say it’s probably a cultural lapse to use the old style, but they aren’t forcing Mrs. vs Miss, so it’s hard to say. But I don’t recall hearing a lot of Mizz anywhere lately. ---
**Author:** ![aurora\_maire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aurora_maire/32/328_2.png) [@aurora\_maire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aurora_maire)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2024, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-kamala-vs-biden-trump/1006327/36 "2024-09-02T03:59:44Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > At risk of starting a new round of New York Times bashing, I will point out that they refer to Mrs. Clinton but Ms. Harris. > [@PhillyGuy](#): > > Their policy is to ask the most prominent women which title they prefer. Otherwise they go with Ms. (Sorry, I have no link for this factoid.) I guess they might ask that. But this one is pretty simple. Mrs. Clinton is using her husband’s last name and Ms. Harris kept her maiden name. You wouldn’t call her Mrs. Harris because there is no Mr. Harris. (I guess Doug could have taken her last name and they would be Mr. and Mrs. Harris but I don’t know if there is a rule for that.) ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2024, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-kamala-vs-biden-trump/1006327/37 "2024-09-02T06:40:42Z")
> [@aurora\_maire](#): > > (I guess Doug could have taken her last name and they would be Mr. and Mrs. Harris but I don’t know if there is a rule for that.) When my dad remarried he took his second wife’s last name, and were Mr. and Mrs. {her last name}. So I assume that’s how it would have gone for Kamala and Doug if they’d chosen to be the Harrises. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2024, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-kamala-vs-biden-trump/1006327/38 "2024-09-02T15:18:14Z")
As a practice we are looking to hire a new doc and I was writing a text to an applicant to set up a time to talk. Should I address the person as Dr. whatever or by first name? I asked our previous newest hire about what she felt was proper etiquette and her response informs to this thread I think. The applicant is female so _definitely_ address by Dr. whatever as female doctors are more commonly addressed by first name than the title and that can be perceived as showing less respect. The counter is that our group consists of five female physicians and two males: three of the five females always introduce themselves to patient families as Dr. first name. I’m not sure how to square that apparent contradiction but I suspect it informs? ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2024, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-kamala-vs-biden-trump/1006327/39 "2024-09-02T20:11:17Z")
When introducing oneself to a potential employer/co-worker, knowing you’ll be treated as a professional takes precedence over knowing you are approachable. Perhaps when forming a relationship with a family, establishing that you are approachable is the bigger priority. In my case, I’m a little dismayed by how many young unmarried teachers go by “Miss”. This is not a pronunciation thing: I mean in writing. (Teaching may be the only remaining profession where anyone writes out their title and name on the regular). I feel very strongly that you should address people as they want to be addressed, so I bite my tongue and copy their preference. But it strikes me as unprofessional, and I am sadly convinced that when they do get married, they will want to be “Mrs.” and as an old lady who can still (barely) remember women reduced to “Mrs. John Smith”, I am secretely really judgmental about it. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2024, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-kamala-vs-biden-trump/1006327/40 "2024-09-02T20:19:39Z")
This is an easy one: Nobody is ever offended by being referred to as “Dr. Lastname”. If she answers with “Please call me Jane”, then you switch. That was one of the nice things about academia, too: You could always start a conversation addressing someone as “Dr. Lastname”, and if it was inaccurate, or they preferred something else, they’d say so. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-kamala-vs-biden-trump/1006327.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-kamala-vs-biden-trump/1006327.md?page=3)