# Hillary makes bogus claim of racism in Alabama. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 18, 2015, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-makes-bogus-claim-of-racism-in-alabama/734983 "2015-10-18T05:35:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-makes-bogus-claim-of-racism-in-alabama/734983/201 "2015-10-19T12:19:10Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > [QUOTE=Claverhouse] > Back in 1965 Mrs. Clinton supported Goldwater if you want to bring up the politics of three generations ago. > Anyway, she’s always been just like Madonna, continually reinventing herself in order to remain relevant: and this — not uncynical — stunt is merely another example. Fortunately voters are too thick to connect permanent self-revolution to inauthenticity. Good Gawd, do you mean she’s actually changed in the last 50 years? Earth shattering finding **Claverhouse** , good work! [/QUOTE] I wasn’t the one who brought up what Alabaman policies were in **1965**. Maybe they’ve changed in the last 50 years. And Mrs. Clinton has changed her views many times in the last 50 years — mostly in response to whatever will get her votes. I may not admire Ron Paul or the Reverend Sharpton or Noah Chomsky, but they do manage to sustain a certain consistency. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-makes-bogus-claim-of-racism-in-alabama/734983/202 "2015-10-19T12:44:28Z")
A [**British Birth Certificate**](https://www.gov.uk/order-copy-birth-death-marriage-certificate#other-ways-to-apply) costs £9.25 ( and all other certificates such as marriage etc. ) and can be ordered online = \*Takes around 10 minutes Debit or credit card required \* or by post, or by going to the register office where the birth was originally registered. _A priority service is available for £23.40_. Voters are registered by a postcard sent to the house and filled in then returned — usually by just ticking off those living there, and returned. Outside Northern Ireland “_You do not need to show ID to vote in England, Scotland and Wales. You will need to tell polling staff your name and address. They will then cross your name off the list and give you a ballot paper_.” Or you can vote by proxy, or vote by post. However the [**same article**](http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/may/06/how-do-i-vote-general-election-polling-what-need-to-know) points out: “_The elections watchdog plans to introduce the need for photographic ID in time for the 2019 local government and European parliament elections_.” The other things remain the same. However bearing in mind British people’s historic objection to ID Cards, which they try to bring in time after time, I’m doubtful they will reach that date for photo ID. And I couldn’t afford £23… ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-makes-bogus-claim-of-racism-in-alabama/734983/203 "2015-10-19T13:51:03Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I had to show a state-issued birth certificate to get a _library card_. When I strolled up in there with my baby footprints, the librarian laughed at me. Quietly, one hopes. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-makes-bogus-claim-of-racism-in-alabama/734983/204 "2015-10-19T14:01:17Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > That’s first time drivers. > > What about those that just need to renew an existing licence, replace a lost one, or convert an out of state licence? I don’t know-- the web sit didn’t explicitly say. One would assume that if the existing license has not expired, it suffices as ID. If it is expired, you go back to step one. > [@septimus](#): > > As my earlier cite should have clarified, obtaining the DL is a far more significant problem than getting voter ID. Driving without a license can lead to arrest, while voting is an unimportant frill for most people. Certainly someone who wants _both_ the DL and the right to vote, will focus on the former since it yields the latter as well. But this thread is almost entirely about Voter ID, and so it’s unclear that getting a voter ID is made more difficult by this change. Maybe we need a different thread to focus attention on the plight of the poor trying to DLs in AL? And I’d encourage folks to look at the population density map I linked to, above. The “black belt” area of AL is pretty much the same as the “low population density belt” of the state. Now, maybe the lawmakers found that they could exercise their racist motives by hitting the sparsely populated ares, but it does offer an alternate view of the situation. If there is a federal investigation, we’ll see if this matters at all. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-makes-bogus-claim-of-racism-in-alabama/734983/205 "2015-10-19T14:02:00Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > So yeah, all these new hoops may be a minor annoyance to people with plenty of money and internet access, but they can be the difference between yes and no for someone with little or no money, education, or internet access. This argument about lack of internet access is a red herring, IMO. No one had internet access prior to the 1990s, yet the majority of us have birth certificates. Heck, I have relatives that were born in the 1930s, and they have them. The hospital I was born at is in such a sketchy neighborhood that it’s been deemed a Level One Trauma Center specifically to treat gunshot victims. I still have mine. Hanging on to your birth certificate does not require a Herculean effort. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-makes-bogus-claim-of-racism-in-alabama/734983/206 "2015-10-19T14:07:54Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > And I’d encourage folks to look at the population density map I linked to, above. The “black belt” area of AL is pretty much the same as the “low population density belt” of the state. Now, maybe the lawmakers found that they could exercise their racist motives by hitting the sparsely populated ares, but it does offer an alternate view of the situation. If there is a federal investigation, we’ll see if this matters at all. And yet, that low density area already only had one office that’s now closed. What was might have been a long trip is now even longer. Living in a low density area doesn’t mean you have no right to government services. Maybe they should close one of the three in the high density areas that are close together. Look at your pop. map. Lower part of the state, slightly to the right of the center, there’s a small red zone. It has three open offices in a tight cluster. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-makes-bogus-claim-of-racism-in-alabama/734983/207 "2015-10-19T14:12:45Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > The Brennan Center is not exactly a neutral source, by the way. Do you dispute their research methods or their findings? Their abstract suggests that their methodology might underestimate the number of low-income families without documentation. What percentage of Americans do you believe lack necessary documentation, and what evidence do you have to support your claims? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-makes-bogus-claim-of-racism-in-alabama/734983/208 "2015-10-19T14:18:37Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Do you dispute their research methods or their findings? Their abstract suggests that their methodology might underestimate the number of low-income families without documentation. Did you dispute the “research methods or findings” of Rachel Maddow, cited in post #76? Why not? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-makes-bogus-claim-of-racism-in-alabama/734983/209 "2015-10-19T14:19:54Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > No, it’s not _impossible_. It’s called a birth certificate. Again, something like 97% of Americans were born in a hospital, where the issuance of a birth certificate is a matter of course. Can you cite this number, and can you explain its applicability, since we’re really only interested in Americans at least 18 years old? I’m finding that very few people are born outside of hospitals now (and the majority are white kids, presumably part of the home-birth movement), but that [almost half of the people born before 1940 were born outside of a hospital](http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db144.htm#x2013;2012%3C/a%3E). I’m having trouble tracking down a racial breakdown of that number, but it’s highly probable that black people, with less access to health care, were disproportionately born outside of a hospital setting. If someone else can find these numbers, it’d be interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-makes-bogus-claim-of-racism-in-alabama/734983/210 "2015-10-19T14:21:22Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Did you dispute the “research methods or findings” of Rachel Maddow, cited in post #76? Why not? I don’t dispute them, because I haven’t investigated them. I’ll therefore make no claim about them at all, nor will I rely on them for any purpose, nor will I dispute claims based on them. Now you. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-makes-bogus-claim-of-racism-in-alabama/734983/211 "2015-10-19T14:39:41Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > And I’d encourage folks to look at the population density map I linked to, above. The “black belt” area of AL is pretty much the same as the “low population density belt” of the state. Now, maybe the lawmakers found that they could exercise their racist motives by hitting the sparsely populated ares, but it does offer an alternate view of the situation. If there is a federal investigation, we’ll see if this matters at all. Shouldn’t the low-density zone have MORE offices strewn around, to avoid their having to trek a million miles just to get the most basic paperwork ? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-makes-bogus-claim-of-racism-in-alabama/734983/212 "2015-10-19T14:41:34Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Did you dispute the “research methods or findings” of Rachel Maddow, cited in post #76? Why not? I watched the video. She was simply reporting on the closings and the backlash. I heard nothing that sounded like her opinion alone. Cite where she came to a conclusion based on her “research methods or findings”. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-makes-bogus-claim-of-racism-in-alabama/734983/213 "2015-10-19T14:41:40Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’m finding that very few people are born outside of hospitals now (and the majority are white kids, presumably part of the home-birth movement), but that [almost half of the people born before 1940 were born outside of a hospital](http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db144.htm#x2013;2012%3C/a%3E). I agree, very few people are born outside of hospitals these days. As for people that were born before 1940, they are all aged 75+. The “problem”, if there is one, will self-correct in 10-15 years. It doesn’t justify the level of hand-wringing displayed in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-makes-bogus-claim-of-racism-in-alabama/734983/214 "2015-10-19T14:41:45Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Oh, no. $25.00. I note that for people on minimum wage this is close to half a days salary. Half a day’s salary is a lot to me, ymmv. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-makes-bogus-claim-of-racism-in-alabama/734983/215 "2015-10-19T14:46:02Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > And yet, that low density area already only had one office that’s now closed. > > What was might have been a long trip is now even longer. Living in a low density area doesn’t mean you have no right to government services. > > Maybe they should close one of the three in the high density areas that are close together. > > Look at your pop. map. Lower part of the state, slightly to the right of the center, there’s a small red zone. It has three open offices in a tight cluster. Look at the North West corner of the both maps, and the mostly white, but low population density area gets hit hard. I’ll wait for an independent analysis that looks at this with some mathematic rigor. Right now, we’re all just eye-balling. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-makes-bogus-claim-of-racism-in-alabama/734983/216 "2015-10-19T14:48:32Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > I watched the video. She was simply reporting on the closings and the backlash. Do you consider Ms. Maddow to be a neutral reporter of facts? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-makes-bogus-claim-of-racism-in-alabama/734983/217 "2015-10-19T14:50:59Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > I agree, very few people are born outside of hospitals these days. As for people that were born before 1940, they are all aged 75+. The “problem”, if there is one, will self-correct in 10-15 years. It doesn’t justify the level of hand-wringing displayed in this thread. Of course, the percentages didn’t change abruptly from 1940 to 1941; until the Civil Rights Act of 1965, there were segregated hospitals. What percentage of out-of-hospitals births do you consider significant? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-makes-bogus-claim-of-racism-in-alabama/734983/218 "2015-10-19T14:55:06Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Do you consider Ms. Maddow to be a neutral reporter of facts? Can you give us good reason not to trust her reportage of said facts? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-makes-bogus-claim-of-racism-in-alabama/734983/219 "2015-10-19T14:56:32Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > I agree, very few people are born outside of hospitals these days. As for people that were born before 1940, they are all aged 75+. The “problem”, if there is one, will self-correct in 10-15 years. It doesn’t justify the level of hand-wringing displayed in this thread. Are you edging towards offering us a modest proposal? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-makes-bogus-claim-of-racism-in-alabama/734983/220 "2015-10-19T14:57:12Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Of course, the percentages didn’t change abruptly from 1940 to 1941; until the Civil Rights Act of 1965, there were segregated hospitals. What percentage of out-of-hospitals births do you consider significant? Do you have evidence that segregated hospitals didn’t provide for birth certificates in the same manner as “white” hospitals? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-makes-bogus-claim-of-racism-in-alabama/734983.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-makes-bogus-claim-of-racism-in-alabama/734983.md?page=12)