# Hillary makes bogus claim of racism in Alabama. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 18, 2015, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-makes-bogus-claim-of-racism-in-alabama/734983 "2015-10-18T05:35:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-makes-bogus-claim-of-racism-in-alabama/734983/81 "2015-10-18T20:24:33Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Unless your position is that all counties have closed these offices everywhere, then the proportion of 30+ % white majority counties with closed offices cannot but be lower than that of 75+% black counties. Which is 100%. > > ETA : that was addressed at\*\* John Mace \*\*obviously. I read what you wrote 3 times, and don’t understand it. If you can tease out the full statistics from that opinion piece, more power to you, but I couldn’t. We know that 31 counties were affected, and 8 of those had 75% + black residence. The author of that piece then goes on to characterize counties by how they voted in the 2014 presidential election. If he or she wanted to present an objective analysis, he could have simply listed the percent of whites and blacks in each county affected. And then you have the complication of Hispanics, and where they fall on the color spectrum. I’m assuming Asians make up only a small percent of voters in Alabama. Having said that, I do think it is incumbent on the Governor’s office to put out some information as to how the decision was made, and how the counties affected does no disproportionately affect minority voters. So far, I have not seen anything along those lines. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-makes-bogus-claim-of-racism-in-alabama/734983/82 "2015-10-18T21:07:56Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > The facts here may be incomplete, but facts are not lacking. > > Fact: Alabama and many of its neighboring states have a long history of black voter suppression, from “literacy tests” to bogus “voter ID laws” that provide a “solution” to a non-existent problem with the happy side effect of suppressing unwanted black votes. This doesn’t tell us anything about the closed satellite offices. > [@](#): > > Fact: Alabama passed a strict voter ID law in 2011 that took effect for the first time last year. And in last year’s general election, [voter turnout was the lowest in 28 years.](http://www.al.com/news/index.ssf/2014/11/alabama_voter_turnout_only_41.html) Gee, I wonder what demographic predominantly failed to turn out? I don’t doubt that making voting require more bureaucratic steps will reduce turn out. However, your article (and none that I could find in a quick google search) does not actually show that blacks had a lower turnout than whites in Alabama in 2014. FWIW blacks as a group have higher voter turnout than whites in some Southern states so I wouldn’t assume this isn’t the case in Alabama. And on a long-run trend blacks actually have steadily been increasing voter turnout, the picture for whites is different. [This](https://www.census.gov/prod/2013pubs/p20-568.pdf) census report actually shows that nationally black turnout passed declining white turnout through 2012. > [@](#): > > Fact: In that same election, unless I missed one, [every single elected official was a Republican](http://www.al.com/news/index.ssf/2014/11/alabama_2014_election_results.html). Statewide sure, but Alabama is a deep red state. That’s to be expected. But lots of Democrats hold office in Alabama, most state offices aren’t state-wide (i.e., the entire legislature and a host of other offices.) [quote] Fact: And now, in a perfect followon to requiring photo ID to vote, they have closed license offices in 31 counties that issue just such IDs, and the counties in which these offices are being closed are not “mostly” dominated by black populations, they _ **all** _ are: [Every single county in which blacks make up more than 75 percent of registered voters will see their driver license office closed. Every one.](http://www.al.com/opinion/index.ssf/2015/09/alabama_sends_message_we_are_t.html) Let’s make it clear–a claim is being made that the government of Alabama is selectively closing offices to prevent blacks from getting voter ID. The Governor of Alabama has refuted that: 1. 31 DMV offices are being closed, in all but 4 of the largest counties. This represents largely a defunding of DMV and will make it very annoying to get **driver’s licenses** in those counties. 2. Voter identification is available in every county _from offices other than the DMV_, meaning no one in those counties losing access to voter ID–they’re losing easy access to driver’s licenses. Further claims made by others who aren’t the governor are that: 1. These have always been small satellite offices only open a small number of days per week (maybe one), and the four large offices have always been the source of most DMV services in Alabama, so these closures don’t represent a major change to the status quot. 2. These offices were often located in the same building as other government offices that can issue voter ID. Nothing you’ve posted has established anything contrary to what the Governor has said, you’ve just repeated that Alabama is racist, voter ID sucks and etc–but there’s no actual evidence that counties with these closures will lose access to voter ID in that county. Maybe that’s the case, but no one has demonstrated it is. To be frank, unless the Governor is lying about something that a journalist can fact check in a single afternoon, I’m inclined to suspect he’s not lying. Politicians may lie a lot, but I think it takes a pretty stupid one to make a bold, unambiguous proclamation on which they know they are false and in which they can be easily fact-checked. If things are as the Governor says they are, I don’t see that you can make a race argument. Closing 31 out of 35 DMV offices affects everyone that doesn’t live in those 4 counties, so it’s very difficult to me to make the argument of racial targeting. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-makes-bogus-claim-of-racism-in-alabama/734983/83 "2015-10-18T21:13:00Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Having said that, I do think it is incumbent on the Governor’s office to put out some information as to how the decision was made, and how the counties affected does no disproportionately affect minority voters. So far, I have not seen anything along those lines. Reading articles from before this made national news, back when it was just an Alabama budgetary issues, this appears to have happened: 1. Alabama budget is passed which provides extremely low funds for DMV offices, such that it is a factual impossibility for all of them to remain open. 2. The chief law enforcement officer of Alabama apparently is also responsible for the DMV, he says that they will have to close all but the 4 largest DMV offices if the budget stands as is. 3. Later, the Governor says he is going to see if they can find a way to keep the 31 that have to be closed open one day per month to offer driver’s license tests and etc. What’s still vague to me is does this mean all but 4 “full” DMV offices are closing? Or does it mean “satellite offices?” Or am I just underestimating how “small town” Alabama is and Alabama only had four “full” offices in the whole state, and the rest of the State had **always** been serviced by low-service satellite offices, which are now going away completely? FWIW the Alabama law enforcement chief guy seemed pretty exasperated at the evisceration of the DMV budget, so I’d guess he wasn’t on board with it. It’s unclear if the Governor was or wasn’t, and I have found no reports from the legislature explaining why they cut the budget. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-makes-bogus-claim-of-racism-in-alabama/734983/84 "2015-10-18T21:22:27Z")
[Quote=ITR champion] And assuming that the page you linked to is accurate, doesn’t that prove you wrong? You said all the offices being closed are in counties dominated by black populations. You put the word “all” in bold and italics. Then you linked to a page which shows that most of the offices being closed aren’t majority black. [/quote] > [@wolfpup](#): > > Wrong. According to the article, every single county affected is majority black by more than 75%. Do you know how many counties there are in Alabama where over 75% of the population is black? According to census data, there are two: > **[Alabama Black Population Percentage by County](https://www.indexmundi.com/facts/united-states/quick-facts/alabama/black-population-percentage#chart)** > > Map, bar chart, and table showing Black or African American alone, percent by county. The source of the data is the US Census Bureau. I’m really in awe of the Machiavellian cleverness of the Republicans. They shut down offices in 31 counties that are 75% black, when only 2 such counties exist. Either that, or what you’re saying is total bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-makes-bogus-claim-of-racism-in-alabama/734983/85 "2015-10-18T21:29:20Z")
According to the map on your citation, eight counties have between 62-82 per cent black citizens. Only two have populations than exceed 75%, true, but several have numbers in the 70’s. Your use of this citation is more evasive than informative. It is a correction masquerading as a refutation. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-makes-bogus-claim-of-racism-in-alabama/734983/86 "2015-10-18T21:56:29Z")
[This news article](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/10/us/alabama-budget-cuts-raise-concern-over-voting-rights.html) points out that driver’s licenses are the big worry, not voter ID. Alabama officials admit that it’s gotten much harder for poor Alabamans to get their first driver’s license. > [@](#): > > As of last week, Tuscaloosa is the nearest location where a person here can get a driver’s license, after the state decided to stop providing services at 31 satellite locations around the state… > > “You want to get to T-town, it’s at least $50,” said William Bankhead, 56, sitting in front of a boarded-up building that was once Panola’s general store. “We’re a long ways from a place.”… > > The concerns most often heard here, one of the poorest areas in the country, are not about voting. They are about the more routine consequences: the day-to-day transactions, the morass of court fines, the jail time that awaits if one is caught driving without a license and the necessity of transportation in a place where Alabama’s modest state services seem to be receding year by year. > > And more generally, the concerns are about the way cutbacks seem invariably to fall hardest on those at the bottom… > > [But] The national uproar over the access to licenses has centered almost exclusively on its effect on voting. With no early voting and no online registration, Alabama already was one of the least convenient states in which to vote even before it began requiring photo ID. > > … “It’s a lot more than voting. IDs impact lives. You need ID in an encounter with law enforcement even if you’re not driving.” > > … With people from several counties now having to go to Tuscaloosa, the lines will likely be longer, they said, meaning a whole day off work — maybe two, if the wait is especially long. More young people will probably just drive without licenses, as plenty around here already do, they said. As for the free voter ID, one complaint is that the registration process is made intimidating. Petitioner must swear, risking Class C Felony Perjury, that he/she has no other ID, according to the NAACP. ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Nitpick: With “generation” typically considered 25 years or more, why did the racism deniers in the thread decide that “50 years ago” is “three generations ago.” Do I now I have a _great_-grandchild who’s a teenager? No; we’d have to be breeding in early puberty to achieve that. In fact, I was still a virgin in 1965. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-makes-bogus-claim-of-racism-in-alabama/734983/87 "2015-10-18T22:03:11Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Do you know how many counties there are in Alabama where over 75% of the population is black? According to census data, there are two: > > [Alabama Black Population Percentage by County](http://www.indexmundi.com/facts/united-states/quick-facts/alabama/black-population-percentage#chart) > > I’m really in awe of the Machiavellian cleverness of the Republicans. They shut down offices in 31 counties that are 75% black, when only 2 such counties exist. > > Either that, or what you’re saying is total bullshit. Actually, I was just about to post a correction and an update. I was incorrectly assuming that a large number of counties had such majorities and that the second statement about “every one with \> 75% registered black voters had their DMV closed” was a much larger number than the “8 out of 10 of the counties with the largest number of registered black voters had their DMV closed”. In fact the latter is the larger number. I was wrong and apologize for the mistake, and I also think the article’s statement was misleading unless “\> 75% of registered voters being black” means something drastically different from “\> 75% of the population is black”. And 75% of county registered voters being black is a bad threshold to use if you want to make a point about the number of blacks potentially being disenfranchised. That said, let’s see why the point still stands. First of all [according to this US Census page](http://www.al.com/census/), there were, as of the latest census, three such counties, not two, but more to the point, the census bureau shades in black those which have significant black majorities of more than about 68%: Sumter Greene Perry Dallas Wilcox Lowndes Macon Bullock. At least a further three have lesser black majorities: Marengo Hale Montgomery. That’s 11 in total that have actual black majorities All in Alabama’s black belt. According to the article below, between 12 and 15 of the counties in the black belt are getting their DMVs shut down, depending on how you define that geography. And according to Rachel Maddow’s map from the previous link, there are only about 17 counties in the typical definition of that region. Those are the sorts of proportions we’re talking about. Compare that [with this list](http://www.al.com/opinion/index.ssf/2015/09/voter_id_and_drivers_license_o.html): Look at the list of counties now where you can’t get a driver’s license. There’s Choctaw, Sumter, Hale, Greene, Perry, Wilcox, Lowndes, Butler, Crenshaw, Macon, Bullock … If you had to memorize all the Alabama Counties in 9th grade, like I did – and even if you forgot most of them, like I have – you can probably guess where we’re going with this. Depending on which counties you count as being in Alabama’s Black Belt, either twelve or fifteen Black Belt counties soon won’t have a place to get a driver’s license. There a reason that both the state Representative and the NAACP [are calling for a Justice Department investigation](http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2015/10/06/3709020/alabama-dmv-voters/). ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-makes-bogus-claim-of-racism-in-alabama/734983/88 "2015-10-18T22:12:36Z")
> [@sleestak](#): > > And liberals always assume racism. I myself make no such assumption. If some of these folks engaged in vote suppression are racist, that’s immaterial. I’m sure they would have their minions personally chauffeur the black people to the polls in their limos if they knew they were going to vote for them. But since they know most of them are not, they’ve been engaged for the better part of a century in making sure that they don’t vote at all. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-makes-bogus-claim-of-racism-in-alabama/734983/89 "2015-10-18T22:24:32Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Nitpick: With “generation” typically considered 25 years or more, why did the racism deniers in the thread decide that “50 years ago” is “three generations ago.” Do I now I have a _great_-grandchild who’s a teenager? No; we’d have to be breeding in early puberty to achieve that. In fact, I was still a virgin in 1965. 😛 It’s funny how 50 years ago is ancient history when we’re talking about the civil rights movement. But my oldest sibling–a quintessential Gen Xer–is coming up on 50. Plenty of people who were voting back in those “bad ole days” are still voting today. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-makes-bogus-claim-of-racism-in-alabama/734983/90 "2015-10-18T22:26:13Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Depending on which counties you count as being in Alabama’s Black Belt, either twelve or fifteen Black Belt counties soon won’t have a place to get a driver’s license. > [/INDENT] > There a reason that both the state Representative and the NAACP [are calling for a Justice Department investigation](http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2015/10/06/3709020/alabama-dmv-voters/). Sounds like a reasonable idea to me, and it would hopefully clear this whole matter up. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-makes-bogus-claim-of-racism-in-alabama/734983/91 "2015-10-18T22:28:32Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I read what you wrote 3 times, and don’t understand it. If you can tease out the full statistics from that opinion piece, more power to you, but I couldn’t. I’ll try and rephrase it then : we know that all 75%+ black counties got hit - 100%. You were saying we don’t know how many of the remainder was majorly white. My point is that it hardly matters : we know that not all counties were hit, and we know ALL the majority black districts were. Since it’s not possible for all majority white districts to have closed, then perforce the percentage of majority white counties hit mathematically cannot be higher than that of blacks. It’s possible that it’s a mere coincidence, but it warrants looking into. (the Latino angle is, I think, a red herring - Alabama ranks 40 among US States there, with only ~4% of the population being Latinos) > [@](#): > > Having said that, I do think it is incumbent on the Governor’s office to put out some information as to how the decision was made, and how the counties affected does no disproportionately affect minority voters. So far, I have not seen anything along those lines. Pretty much, yeah. [QUOTE=elucidator] Your use of this citation is more evasive than informative. It is a correction masquerading as a refutation. [/QUOTE] Oh hi, you must be new here :). I take it you’ve met **ITR Champion**. He does that. Got more spin in him than a Jesuit working for Fox News and more misdirection than a prestidigitators’ convention, he does. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-makes-bogus-claim-of-racism-in-alabama/734983/92 "2015-10-18T22:36:01Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I’ll try and rephrase it then : we know that all 75%+ black counties got hit - 100%. You were saying we don’t know how many of the remainder was majorly white. > > My point is that it hardly matters : we know that not all counties were hit, and we know ALL the majority black districts were. Since it’s not possible for all majority white districts to have closed, then perforce the percentage of majority white counties hit mathematically cannot be higher than that of blacks. As you can see, that statistic about 75% + black counties is suspect as there are not 8, but 2 or 3. And you are confusing all counties containing 75% + blacks with all counties containing majority black residence. So, no, we don’t know that “all majority black districts were” hit. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-makes-bogus-claim-of-racism-in-alabama/734983/93 "2015-10-18T22:52:38Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > The thing is, if you have voter ID laws, you need to be making IDs more easily available. They’re making them less easily available. No, probably not by all that much. But they are doing it. > > This wouldn’t matter one bit if they hadn’t chosen to connect IDs with voting rights. But, now that they have, anything that has the potential to reduce the number of IDs will become an issue like this. > > The only “more information” that would help would be that there’s some massive campaign to get more IDs out there, or that they would reduce requirements in light of this change. > > That doesn’t mean I know they are being racist. I have no idea, and race really didn’t even enter into it. The voter ID thing is about poor people, and about disenfranchising liberals. > > (And, to be honest, in a state that reliably goes red, it’s hard for me to care too much about voter ID. It’s only the fact that it makes it more normal that bugs me.) Also let’s remember the article in the National Review, which is clearly written by an activist with his own agenda(I’d have the same reaction to something similar in say Think Progress) says “typically” they were in the very same building, but doesn’t give any hard answers as to what he meant by typically. Was that 10 of the 31 offices, 17, 25, 8? We don’t know and I’m a bit reminded of how when I worked in sales whenever asked what our prices were compared to our competitors the answer we always gave was “competitive”. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-makes-bogus-claim-of-racism-in-alabama/734983/94 "2015-10-18T22:55:16Z")
Typical HC-say anything to make a story. Remember, she was for the Pacific Trade Agreement before she was against it. The thing to remember about the Clintons; nothing they said 30 seconds ago means anything-what is relevant is what they are saying now. it’s like “depends upon what the definition of “is” is”. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-makes-bogus-claim-of-racism-in-alabama/734983/95 "2015-10-18T23:03:50Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Typical HC-say anything to make a story. > Remember, she was for the Pacific Trade Agreement before she was against it. The thing to remember about the Clintons; nothing they said 30 seconds ago means anything-what is relevant is what they are saying now. > it’s like “depends upon what the definition of “is” is”. Thank-you for that insightful commentary. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-makes-bogus-claim-of-racism-in-alabama/734983/96 "2015-10-18T23:03:54Z")
Here’s a map of the [open and closed ID offices](https://www.brennancenter.org/blog/closing-drivers-license-offices-alabama). ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-makes-bogus-claim-of-racism-in-alabama/734983/97 "2015-10-18T23:05:23Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It would be nice if we had a more objective source than _The National Review_ for what these satellite offices are. It’s curious, to me at least, why you’re questioning the objectivity of sources at this late date. Posters on this message board routinely quote think progress in Great Debates, and no one so much as bats an eyelash. What’s the problem with National Review, then? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-makes-bogus-claim-of-racism-in-alabama/734983/98 "2015-10-18T23:09:32Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > It’s curious, to me at least, why you’re questioning the objectivity of sources at this late date. > > Posters on this message board routinely quote think progress in Great Debates, and no one so much as bats an eyelash. > > What’s the problem with National Review, then? Do you think there is a problem with citing ThinkProgress? Do you think there should not be a problem with citing National Review? Why? Make your case. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-makes-bogus-claim-of-racism-in-alabama/734983/99 "2015-10-18T23:12:35Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Here’s a map of the [open and closed ID offices](https://www.brennancenter.org/blog/closing-drivers-license-offices-alabama). Very informative! Best data yet. So, let’s also look at the same map buy [population density](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alabama#/media/File:Alabama_population_map.png) (irrespective of race). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-makes-bogus-claim-of-racism-in-alabama/734983/100 "2015-10-18T23:15:25Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > It’s curious, to me at least, why you’re questioning the objectivity of sources at this late date. > > Posters on this message board routinely quote think progress in Great Debates, and no one so much as bats an eyelash. > > What’s the problem with National Review, then? If you think I’ve never admonished folks from citing Think Progress, you haven’t been here very long. The problem is not so much with either NR or TP as long as they, themselves, link to the original source material. My experience is that they often don’t, and when they do, they often “spin” the information from the original source to more closely align with the point of view they are advocating. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-makes-bogus-claim-of-racism-in-alabama/734983.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-makes-bogus-claim-of-racism-in-alabama/734983.md?page=6)