# Hillary: Screw the voters, crown me! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 11, 2008, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-screw-the-voters-crown-me/437140 "2008-02-11T10:09:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-screw-the-voters-crown-me/437140/21 "2008-02-11T14:38:41Z")
[QUOTE=CalMeacham] And how does this differ from the way Bush famously did business? [/QUOTE] I’m not sure the old “Well Bush did it first” nugget is going to work that well when it’s Clinton vs. Obama. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-screw-the-voters-crown-me/437140/22 "2008-02-11T14:45:01Z")
[QUOTE=CalMeacham] And how does this differ from the way Bush famously did business? [/QUOTE] Talk about a line that feeds the argument. 😃 Clinton has the bigger machine and yet Obama seems to be overcoming it. He did well on Super-Tuesday and that was the event that was suppose to make HRC the candidate. A large number of people seem to be genuinely engaged and enthusiastic about Obama. This is not a common occurrence in my lifetime. Jim ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-screw-the-voters-crown-me/437140/23 "2008-02-11T14:55:17Z")
[QUOTE=Jackmannii] There’s been plenty of sleaze coming from the Clinton camp (including not-so-subtle appeals to Hispanic voters to reject Obama based on alleged “traditional” voting patterns) [/QUOTE] Just thought I’d jump in here with a cite for that statement: > [@](#): > > [http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/10/opinion/10rich.html?\_r=1&oref=slogin](http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/10/opinion/10rich.html?_r=1&oref=slogin) > > But the wholesale substitution of Hispanics for blacks on the Hallmark show is tainted by a creepy racial back story. Last month a Hispanic pollster employed by the Clinton campaign pitted the two groups against each other by telling The New Yorker that Hispanic voters have “not shown a lot of willingness or affinity to support black candidates.” Mrs. Clinton then seconded the motion by telling Tim Russert in a debate that her pollster was “making a historical statement.” > > It wasn’t an accurate statement, historical or otherwise. It was a lie, and a bigoted lie at that, given that it branded Hispanics, a group as heterogeneous as any other, as monolithic racists. As the columnist Gregory Rodriguez pointed out in The Los Angeles Times, all three black members of Congress in that city won in heavily Latino districts; black mayors as various as David Dinkins in New York in the 1980s and Ron Kirk in Dallas in the 1990s received more than 70 percent of the Hispanic vote. The real point of the Clinton campaign’s decision to sow misinformation and racial division, Mr. Rodriguez concluded, was to “undermine one of Obama’s central selling points, that he can build bridges and unite Americans of all types.” ---
**Author:** ![Jurph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/50afbb/32.png) [@Jurph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jurph)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-screw-the-voters-crown-me/437140/24 "2008-02-11T15:55:20Z")
[QUOTE=What Exit?] Clinton has the bigger machine and yet Obama seems to be overcoming it. […] A large number of people seem to be genuinely engaged and enthusiastic about Obama. This is not a common occurrence in my lifetime. [/QUOTE] Obama’s call “centers” (if you can call them that) feature wall outlets without phone lines. Volunteers are urged to bring their cell phones and chargers, or simply place calls from home using a web application that delivers voter info directly to their browsers. Obama is building a machine out of spare parts, and it’s kind of stunning to behold. **RickJay** , I agree with your dissection of the article – but letting their post-Ohio-and-Texas strategy “leak” still takes balls of brass. I have a more charitable reading now that I’ve considered it: it’s possible that the intent was to make a subtle but overt proposal for a timetable. It’s possible that HRC’s campaign is willing to end the race (regardless of who is ahead) after Texas/Ohio. That doesn’t jive very well with her insistence that every state’s primary be counted – surely Pennsylvania, North Carolina, and eight other states each deserve the same consideration she wants to extend to Michigan and Florida? – but it seems like a reasonable time for whomever is behind in the count to consider bowing out. If this was her intent, then I applaud her sense of fair play and her commitment to the bigger picture. And if Hillary withdraws within a week of Ohio/Texas, I’ll eat a bug. ---
**Author:** ![jaydotbeedot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/54ee81/32.png) [@jaydotbeedot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jaydotbeedot)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-screw-the-voters-crown-me/437140/25 "2008-02-11T16:22:27Z")
Since delegates are awarded proportionately, it’s not necessarily true that winning TX and OH will give Hillary the lead again, let alone a “substantial” one; it would depend on her margins of victory. It will also depend on whether you include superdelegates – who can change alliances if they choose – and how many more of them have indicated their support to either candidate by then. Depending on what happens tomorrow (and in Wisconsin later this month), it’s certainly possible that Hillary wins TX and OH narrowly and remains behind overall. ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-screw-the-voters-crown-me/437140/26 "2008-02-11T16:26:03Z")
Where can I find a list of what superdelegates have pledged already and for whom? If I find that my elected official is supporting a candidate that lost 2.4:1 in the caucus, I will let them know of my displeasure. ---
**Author:** ![jaydotbeedot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/54ee81/32.png) [@jaydotbeedot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jaydotbeedot)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-screw-the-voters-crown-me/437140/27 "2008-02-11T16:37:31Z")
[QUOTE=NurseCarmen] Where can I find a list of what superdelegates have pledged already and for whom? [/QUOTE] You can’t. That’s why the totals cited by various news organizations differ. Some have publicly endorsed a candidate (Ted Kennedy, etc.) so you can assume those are on the list. The rest of them are on lists maintained by each campaign, which are given to news organizations to support the claim of how many have committed. The media then try to confirm the names directly to arrive at a total. You could start with your representative’s website, to see if he/she has endorsed – if so, there should be a press release. If not, you could write or call to ask if his/her support has been pledged, and convey your opinion that support should go to the candidate who won the constituency’s vote. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-screw-the-voters-crown-me/437140/28 "2008-02-11T17:02:04Z")
List of pledged superdelegates: > **[Superdelegate Endorsement List](http://demconwatch.blogspot.com/2008/01/superdelegate-list.html)** > > Click Here To See The Rest of the Blog This page has been frozen as of June 6, 2008. To add a comment click here. Endorsements Dates Here's... ---
**Author:** ![Jurph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/50afbb/32.png) [@Jurph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jurph)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-screw-the-voters-crown-me/437140/29 "2008-02-11T17:11:37Z")
[QUOTE=NurseCarmen] Where can I find a list of what superdelegates have pledged already and for whom? [/QUOTE] [Superdelegates.org](http://superdelegates.org) has a list based solely on public endorsements, which is about as good a listing as you’re going to get. Comparing it to the delegate scores from CNN gives you an interesting look at the mismatches between the will of the people and the will of the party. For example, I discovered that the governor of my former home state, Delaware, continues to support Hillary despite her loss in the state (53% to 43%). Is that wrong? Not really – Obama took 9 pledged delegates to Clinton’s 6, so if the governor wants to more accurately portray the mix of views within the state, that’s fine. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-screw-the-voters-crown-me/437140/30 "2008-02-11T19:47:08Z")
[QUOTE=Jurph] As for the difference between Obama calling the superdelegates and Hillary calling the party leaders, it’s simple: both Obama and Clinton are lobbying the superdelegates, because it’s part of the game. Obama’s line of argument is “I won the primary in your state and I won the district you represent; the people who elected you have chosen me; therefore I deserve your vote.” Clinton’s line of argument is “One hand washes the other” (I can’t find the damned article, but there was a great piece talking about her approach to wooing supers – learn which issues are important to them and then promise them a piece of legislation. Classic Clinton!). Each is enlisting [high profile allies](http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/02/obama_and_hillary_using_high_p.php) in the effort. Each is aware that the supers will decide this contest. But only Senator Clinton is calling for party officials to persuade her opponent to _give up_ at the very moment he takes the lead! The brass balls it must take! I wonder how she walks in a straight line. [/QUOTE] Assuming the story linked to in the OP is true, then you’re exactly right. Both are lobbying superdelegates to support them-- that’s what politicking is all about. But it’s another matter entirely to try and get some party bigwigs to force the other person out. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-screw-the-voters-crown-me/437140/31 "2008-02-11T19:53:50Z")
**Hillary: Screw the voters, crown me!** In other news, Hillary has replaced her campaign manager with former Arizona Cardinals head coach Dennis Green. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-screw-the-voters-crown-me/437140/32 "2008-02-11T20:00:09Z")
[QUOTE=garygnu] **Hillary: Screw the voters, crown me!** In other news, Hillary has replaced her campaign manager with former Arizona Cardinals head coach Dennis Green. [/QUOTE] So does this mean that Obama is who she thought he is? And every time someone on the Obama website posts “fired up” I hear it in my mind as Jim Mora, Jr. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-screw-the-voters-crown-me/437140/33 "2008-02-11T20:44:36Z")
[QUOTE=asterion] So does this mean that Obama is who she thought he is? And every time someone on the Obama website posts “fired up” I hear it in my mind as Jim Mora, Jr. [/QUOTE] Superdelegates? Don’t talk about - SUPERdelegates?!? You kidding me?!?! SUPERDELEGATES!!?!!?? I just hope we can win a primary! ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-screw-the-voters-crown-me/437140/34 "2008-02-11T20:46:13Z")
[QUOTE=Happy Wanderer] Is there no limit to the lengths this bitch will go to? Is there no limit to her sense of entitlement to the office? [/QUOTE] I’m not a great fan of Hillary Clinton. Indeed, my intent is to vote for Obama in tomorrow’s primary. However, this is an unfair characterization of what Clinton’s doing. This is a political campaign – it’s perfectly legitimate to use spin to influence people to come to your side. There are no _extreme lengths_ being taken here – no one is actually subject to real threats of any kind. No one’s livelihoods or families are at stake if they choose Obama over Clinton. There are no indications in public pronouncements that Clinton feels _entitled_ to be president. > [@](#): > > Um, because she thinks that she should be President, no matter what the voters think? McCain and Obama realize they must have the approval of the voters to win office. Clinton wants a coronation. And what exactly is your evidence of this? Surely, Clinton has not stated that she intends to be the Democratic nominee even if Obama is actually nominated? [QUOTE=Jurph] However, Bill Clinton has always practiced a particularly ferocious flavor of loyalty politics – he richly rewards folks who stick with him, but if you can’t be 100% on his side, he will burn that bridge and mark down your name for a reckoning. [/QUOTE] I’m going to have to ask for some support for this, because my impression has been that one of Bill Clinton’s characteristics (sometimes a strength and sometimes a weakness) is that he is very willing to work with anyone regardless of past conflict. > [@](#): > > What Senator Clinton is asking is > (1) for Senator Obama to quit the race, although he is ahead > (2) for the superdelegates to cast their votes to effectively counter Senator Obama’s lead in the primaries, even though that lead is an expression of the will of the people. The party gives the super delegates the right to vote for whom they please. Clinton is perfectly justified in trying to persuade them to vote for her. > [@](#): > > It’s a bit like a schoolkid getting his father (who happens to be the headmaster) to overturn the results of a student council election. It’s dirty pool. It’s not that at all. It’s simply employing available resources. Do you think Obama would capitulate if he thought he could actually win? Do you think Clinton believes she can force Obama to capitulate regardless of whether he thinks he has a chance to win? Nonsense. > [@](#): > > But only Senator Clinton is calling for party officials to persuade her opponent to give up at the very moment he takes the lead! The brass balls it must take! I wonder how she walks in a straight line. Nonsense. Clinton doesn’t believe that Obama could be persuaded to quit unless he sees it as being in his interest. This is all just perception gaming and there’s nothing subversive about it at all. Both Clinton and Obama will use their connections to try to get people to support them, regardless of who is ahead or behind. What do you expect Clinton to do? “Well, Obama’s ahead now, so I think everybody should just support him.” So long as she is behind, any argument she makes amounts to “I might be behind now, but you should still support me.” Every non-leader is in that position. [QUOTE=Jurph] Quick hijack, then. As an American, I have a passing familiarity with the Guardian (aka the Grauniad) being a bit of a laughingstock for occasional typographical and factual errors. [/quote] The Guardian is known for typographical errors. As a source for news, it is well respected. > [@](#): > > Is the Telegraph regarded similarly? My information as a non-British-person is that the Telegraph is a paranoid, right-wing mouthpiece. Differing only from the Washington Times in its relative candor regarding its leanings. The Washington Times will never admit to being a Republican Party organ. > [@](#): > > And if Hillary withdraws within a week of Ohio/Texas, I’ll eat a bug. And there’s nothing wrong with that either. Contests should be contested, I say. [QUOTE=John Mace] But it’s another matter entirely to try and get some party bigwigs to force the other person out. [/QUOTE] So far as I know, neither Clinton nor any party bigwigs have the power to force Obama out. What exactly is the kind of power she wields to actually do such a thing by force? She has only what any politician has. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-screw-the-voters-crown-me/437140/35 "2008-02-11T20:50:31Z")
[QUOTE=calm kiwi] I am clearly very uneducated about this whole Primary buisness (its alien territory in New Zealand politics) but talk of superdelegates and school kids getting dads vote…isn’t that how Mr President got in? Is it worse to have a husbands influence then a fathers influence? [/QUOTE] Of course it’s no worse. The point is it’s no **better.** ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-screw-the-voters-crown-me/437140/36 "2008-02-11T20:51:43Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23] Superdelegates? Don’t talk about - SUPERdelegates?!? You kidding me?!?! SUPERDELEGATES!!?!!?? I just hope we can win a primary! [/QUOTE] Hello?! You play to win the campaign. I’m a woman! I’m 60! Wow, who knew that head coach press conferences could be used in so many ways? ---
**Author:** ![Jurph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/50afbb/32.png) [@Jurph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jurph)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-screw-the-voters-crown-me/437140/37 "2008-02-11T21:14:50Z")
[QUOTE=acsenray] I’m going to have to ask for some support for this, because my impression has been that one of Bill Clinton’s characteristics (sometimes a strength and sometimes a weakness) is that he is very willing to work with anyone regardless of past conflict. [/QUOTE] I don’t know how to go about citing this as fact – and perhaps it isn’t – but check out Marc Ambinder’s column in April 2006: > [@](#): > > As part of the Clinton team works on expanding its midlevel donor base, another focuses on preserving the allegiance of mega-fundraisers. With several of Clinton’s 2008 rivals aggressively courting these key donors, the team’s message boils down to “She’s gonna win – don’t cross her.” The assumption that New York’s junior senator will be their party’s nominee – and that **she will reward loyalty and punish betrayal** – is pervasive among the party’s major donors. “Everybody is scared to death of her, and they don’t want to alienate her,” says a Democrat close to Clinton’s finance team. “They’ll hedge their bets.” Andrew Sullivan (a known Clinton-hater, which weakens my argument here) says this of Hillary’s campaign hiring Sandy Berger: > [@](#): > > But (Berger’s) thievery is less important to Clinton than his loyalty. After all, his theft was an attempt to keep president Clinton’s failures with respect to al Qaeda under wraps. And so he gets a pardon. Remember: the Clintons are on their best behavior right now. And they still rehire their corrupted loyalists. Like the other royal family, the Clinton court exists to **reward loyalty, protect the brand, circle the wagons and to punish dissenters**. With post-Cheney executive powers, the potential for the Clinton machine to abuse their power more profoundly than in the 1990s is high. Both of those cites address Hillary’s long memory, not Bill’s. You may be right about the former President. I’m fairly sure I’m right about the Senator from New York. I’ll look for more cites if you’re not convinced, but mostly it’s a pervasive feeling, nothing that would even make it into print. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-screw-the-voters-crown-me/437140/38 "2008-02-11T23:48:27Z")
Are the Texas and Ohio primaries winner take all? If not, then even if she won them she might not have a big lead. And Pennsylvania is April 22, so the fat lady isn’t anywhere close to singing yet. All’s fair etc, but I wonder if she allowed this to leak to try to misdirect the media on the chaos in her campaign. You don’t get rid of people when things are working. After last weekend Obama seems to have momentum, and this leak is trying to get people to think that the whole nomination rests on the next two primaries. It seems a desperation move to me. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2008, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-screw-the-voters-crown-me/437140/39 "2008-02-12T00:00:25Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] Are the Texas and Ohio primaries winner take all? If not, then even if she won them she might not have a big lead. And Pennsylvania is April 22, so the fat lady isn’t anywhere close to singing yet. [/quote] I’m pretty sure none of the Democratic primaries are winner-take all. By the time March 4 rolls around, given the proportional representation part of it and the races Obama is likely to win before then, it may be hard to make up that much ground. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2008, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-screw-the-voters-crown-me/437140/40 "2008-02-12T00:33:28Z")
She is not running for cub scout leader. She is after the most powerful job in the world. Dirty tricks have defined campaigns for years. If she does it she is a bitch. Got a label for what Bush and Rove did. Swiftboating and dirty politics defined these assholes. But, she is a bitch. This is not fair. Labelling her and name calling allow you to dismiss her politics. Basically it is unfair and dishonest. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-screw-the-voters-crown-me/437140.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-screw-the-voters-crown-me/437140.md?page=3)