# Hillary's coattails suck. Only Trump's are worse. Who would have been better? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 26, 2016, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillarys-coattails-suck-only-trumps-are-worse-who-would-have-been-better/769774 "2016-10-26T14:54:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2016, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillarys-coattails-suck-only-trumps-are-worse-who-would-have-been-better/769774/61 "2016-10-28T01:45:49Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > See, as i said, you continue to attack Hillary. With bogus attacks, mind you. So cut with this “we” shit. > > Nothing at all wrong with the speeches. Do you know what’s in the speeches? No? Then how do you know its bogus? The stuff we’ve seen leaked so far hasn’t been doing her campaign any good. What she did with her emails at the State department would have gotten anyone else fired, some of those things were beyond foot faults or minor ethical breaches (particularly deleting emails (or wiping them with a cloth) after the subpoena). Nothing bogus about that. And since when does criticizing Hillary mean I’m not a Democrat? A significant minority of Democrats have an unfavorable view of her. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2016, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillarys-coattails-suck-only-trumps-are-worse-who-would-have-been-better/769774/62 "2016-10-28T01:47:12Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > And I heard she ate several meals during this period and by doing so she contributed to hunger in the third world. > > Emails and speeches are a joke. The only people who pretend these are issues are people who already had made up their minds about Clinton long ago. I doubt there are ten people in this country who changed their opinion about Hillary Clinton over the these issues. > > Like I’ve said, you guys used up all your A material long ago. And you B and C and D material. So now nobody cares about the stuff you’re scraping out of the bottom of the barrel. The emails and the speeches aren’t going to change my vote but they changed my mind about her. If she was running against Romney this year, I vote for Romney. The email stuff hurt Hillary. And rightly so. The speeches hurt Hillary, and rightly so. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2016, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillarys-coattails-suck-only-trumps-are-worse-who-would-have-been-better/769774/63 "2016-10-28T01:48:45Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Just for the record, if the Dems won every House district with a Cook PVI of R+2, R+1, even, or D+something, the Dems would have a 220-215 House majority. > > So yeah, the combination of concentrated Dem support in urban areas, and GOP gerrymandering, has made winning the House a somewhat uphill battle for the Dems. But not monumentally uphill. And you don’t think that having Hillary at the top of the ticket has something to do with these districts being in R+1/R+2 rather than D+1/D+2? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2016, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillarys-coattails-suck-only-trumps-are-worse-who-would-have-been-better/769774/64 "2016-10-28T03:13:26Z")
> [@Folacin](#): > > Four at the first debate: Clinton, Sanders, O’Malley and Webb (pretty sure Webb got to do one debate). Five at the first debate. Lincoln Chafee was in it too. But he and Webb left before the first caucus. I give O’Malley credit for trying, but I don’t expect he could get past his history of illegal mass arrests in Maryland. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2016, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillarys-coattails-suck-only-trumps-are-worse-who-would-have-been-better/769774/65 "2016-10-28T03:39:17Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > If anybody other than Clinton had been nominated, we might be looking at a Trump presidency. > > Clinton’s a survivor. She was able to get through this wave of shit and succeed. Pretty much anyone else would have collapsed by this point. > > And anybody who thinks a different nominee like Sanders or Biden or O’Malley wouldn’t have faced the same wave of shit is being naive. Any of them would have been buried under a bigger mountain of shit than Clinton was. So, after Clinton the deluge? Of shit? > [@DrDeth](#): > > It’s a miracle that Clinton came out as clean as she did. > > And this will be the pattern folks. The GOP will hold hearings, hack into emails, and use Roves tactics to smear and lie about\* any\* Dem candidate. Yeah, no Democrat not named Clinton has a chance in Presidential races. Remember that guy back in 2008, Brock Omaha or something? By the time they were done with him he’d resigned from the Senate in disgrace. Last I heard of him he was hawking used cars somewhere in Chicagoland. You know, if these last eight years of President McCain have taught me anything, it’s that the Clintons are the last gasp of the Democratic Party. Enjoy it while you can. [This\* is\* an alternate history thread, right? Because you know, in this reality, Obama \*did \*stand up to Rovian attacks.] ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2016, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillarys-coattails-suck-only-trumps-are-worse-who-would-have-been-better/769774/66 "2016-10-28T08:19:10Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > IMO, she was/is a popular (with Democrats) and very widely known Democrat with lots of connections and fundraising abilities, and such a candidate will usually win a party primary, barring a massively talented dark horse like Obama. That’s why she won the nomination, and why she won it by a pretty comfortable margin. This paragraph says very little. Obama was able to catch her once black Democrats saw him as a real contender and practically all defected to him. And he was able to get that far by being not a Bush nor a Clinton nor a Baby Boomer, in an era when many in the press were sick of the whole generation of draft-dodging screwballs and angry veterans. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2016, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillarys-coattails-suck-only-trumps-are-worse-who-would-have-been-better/769774/67 "2016-10-28T10:31:32Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > This paragraph says very little. Obama was able to catch her once black Democrats saw him as a real contender and practically all defected to him. And he was able to get that far by being not a Bush nor a Clinton nor a Baby Boomer, in an era when many in the press were sick of the whole generation of draft-dodging screwballs and angry veterans. Yes, I saw that article in the _Washington Post_ about How Boomers Suck. Such a “pampered” generation–but the last one that had to face the draft. During an unpopular war. So, those who allowed themselves to be drafted–or even joined up–are “angry.” (Well, the ones who aren’t dead.) All the other guys are “draft-dodging screwballs.” Weren’t you a Bernie fan before returning to your Republican roots? He’s an old guy. Who was in college during those years, tried to be a CO (but failed) & finally aged out of the draft. Hillary will do fine. Much of her current campaigning is aimed down the ballot–she knows she needs Democratic Senators & Reps. Alas, some of my generation is showing signs of Trump Dementia–but we tend to vote. We really need some of the “young” voters to wake up & vote in the non-glamorous elections. _Do_ support some young talented politicians for the future. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2016, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillarys-coattails-suck-only-trumps-are-worse-who-would-have-been-better/769774/68 "2016-10-28T11:59:53Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > There are 49 polling questions and the one you linked isn’t for Democrats only. I would be surprised if 87% of Democrats had a favorable view of Hillary. I would be surprised if only 13% of Democrats had a negative view of Hillary. Check the link again, and click next to “Show results by”, and then choose “Party ID”. And you’ll see that 87% of Democrats see her favorably (or did at the time of that poll), and 11% see her unfavorably, and 2% have no opinion. > [@](#): > > [Pollingreport.com](http://Pollingreport.com) is a poll aggregator. I have not noticed them leaving out polls to skew things one way or the other. and they have her favorability in the negative zone. They have her leading trump but only because Trump is deeper in the negative zone. imagine if we had a candidate that most people actually liked :eek::eek::eek: Other than rare mega-talents like Obama and Bill Clinton, there are no candidates that most people would “actually like”. This is the new normal – half the country will automatically hate each candidate, and another handful will dislike them, most of the time. I don’t think you’re seeing Hillary in an objective way, which is pretty common these days. I don’t particularly like her, but she’s pretty damn close to a standard Democratic pol. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2016, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillarys-coattails-suck-only-trumps-are-worse-who-would-have-been-better/769774/69 "2016-10-28T12:06:14Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > This paragraph says very little. Obama was able to catch her once black Democrats saw him as a real contender and practically all defected to him. And he was able to get that far by being not a Bush nor a Clinton nor a Baby Boomer, in an era when many in the press were sick of the whole generation of draft-dodging screwballs and angry veterans. Obama was a “real contender” because he’s Obama – a once-in-a-generation political talent. No one else could have caught her, and it was by the skin of his nose. And had she run a smarter campaign, and not ignored the caucus states, she would have won and Vice President Obama would now be running for his first term. An average Democrat (like Hillary) would have won in 2008, but not in a near-landslide, taking VA and NC and IN. We Democrats are a little spoiled because the last two Presidents we’ve had were incredible political talents, but Bill Clinton and Obama are unique, and we’d be incredibly lucky to see another one that talented in the next decade or two. Kaine isn’t that good, and neither are the other Democrats I like and hope will run in the next decade or two (Booker, Gillibrand, maybe the Castros, and several more), at least as far as one can tell this early. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2016, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillarys-coattails-suck-only-trumps-are-worse-who-would-have-been-better/769774/70 "2016-10-28T16:10:21Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > People care what she said during those speeches. And it is now becoming clear that she thought that the answer to fixing wall street should come from wall street. Or at least that is what she told wall street. It is becoming clear that she wanted open borders and free trade, at least that is what she told banks in Brazil. > > So what bothers you? yeah, not so much. > [@](#): > > Politifact: “This is a huge distortion of Clinton’s proposals. Clinton has praised work already done to secure the border, and she said she supported a 2013 bill that would have invested billions more in border security while creating a path to citizenship for some undocumented immigrants. Her plan calls for protecting the border and targeting deportation to criminals and security threats. Her plan would make it easier for many undocumented immigrants to avoid deportation, but that’s not the same as ending all enforcement. We rate this claim False.” ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2016, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillarys-coattails-suck-only-trumps-are-worse-who-would-have-been-better/769774/71 "2016-10-28T16:35:04Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > So, after Clinton the deluge? > Of shit?Yeah, no Democrat not named Clinton has a chance in Presidential races. Remember that guy back in 2008, Brock Omaha or something? By the time they were done with him he’d resigned from the Senate in disgrace. Last I heard of him he was hawking used cars somewhere in Chicagoland. > > You know, if these last eight years of President McCain have taught me anything, it’s that the Clintons are the last gasp of the Democratic Party. Enjoy it while you can. > > [This\* is\* an alternate history thread, right? Because you know, in this reality, Obama \*did \*stand up to Rovian attacks.] Yes? You’re telling me they didn’t use Rovian attacks vs President Obama? I didnt say that “no Democrat not named Clinton has a chance in Presidential races” but I DO say that any candidate will be subject to Rovian attacks. Maybe, just _maybe_ O’Malley or Sanders would have come out OK. But dont think their approval ratings would have been all that much better than Hillarys. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2016, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillarys-coattails-suck-only-trumps-are-worse-who-would-have-been-better/769774/72 "2016-10-28T16:40:01Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Do you know what’s in the speeches? No? Then how do you know its bogus? The stuff we’ve seen leaked so far hasn’t been doing her campaign any good. > > What she did with her emails at the State department would have gotten anyone else fired, some of those things were beyond foot faults or minor ethical breaches (particularly deleting emails (or wiping them with a cloth) after the subpoena). Nothing bogus about that. > > And since when does criticizing Hillary mean I’m not a Democrat? A significant minority of Democrats have an unfavorable view of her. Actually quite a bit of them have been leaked. Wikileaks has carefully combed them for the worst bits and released them. Two words.\* Ho\* and\* Hum.\* Actually the wikileaks doesnt seem to have hurt. Nope. I had to handle classified info myself. What she did would get here reprimanded and she would have had to retake training. Not nothing but not that big a deal. _Sure, during the Primary you support your favorite. But afterwards, you put your big boy pants on and support the Parties and People’s favorite- like Sanders did._ \*\*Right now, you are campaigning for Trump. \*\* Dont give me this “we” stuff. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2016, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillarys-coattails-suck-only-trumps-are-worse-who-would-have-been-better/769774/73 "2016-10-28T16:40:55Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > And you don’t think that having Hillary at the top of the ticket has something to do with these districts being in R+1/R+2 rather than D+1/D+2? Yeah, that’s _exactly_ what I don’t think. The Cook PVI of a state, Congressional district, or other area is a measure of how much an area has voted GOP or Dem in recent elections, relative to the nation as a whole. Saying a CD is R+2 is saying that in recent elections, it’s voted 2 percentage points more Republican than the nation as a whole has. The PVI has nothing to do with who is running in _this_ election. The results of this year’s election will be input into future PVI scores of states and CDs. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2016, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillarys-coattails-suck-only-trumps-are-worse-who-would-have-been-better/769774/74 "2016-10-29T15:57:11Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > yeah, not so much. Aaaand, thats not what she said to the Brazilian bank during her paid speech. She told them she wanted free trade and open borders in the Americas. Was she lying then or is she lying now? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2016, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillarys-coattails-suck-only-trumps-are-worse-who-would-have-been-better/769774/75 "2016-10-29T16:47:12Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Aaaand, thats not what she said to the Brazilian bank during her paid speech. > > She told them she wanted free trade and open borders in the Americas. Was she lying then or is she lying now? Continuing your trumping for Trump, I see? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2016, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillarys-coattails-suck-only-trumps-are-worse-who-would-have-been-better/769774/76 "2016-10-30T17:26:47Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Actually quite a bit of them have been leaked. Wikileaks has carefully combed them for the worst bits and released them. Two words.\* Ho\* and\* Hum.\* > > Actually the wikileaks doesnt seem to have hurt. You’re kidding right? Its not going to cost her the election but its embarrassing how close this is. > [@](#): > > Nope. I had to handle classified info myself. What she did would get here reprimanded and she would have had to retake training. Not nothing but not that big a deal. Wait, so if you deleted emails that may be subject to a subpoena, you would have gotten you reprimanded? That’s it? If you had classified email conversations over a non-classified system, that would have warranted additional training? > [@](#): > > _Sure, during the Primary you support your favorite. But afterwards, you put your big boy pants on and support the Parties and People’s favorite- like Sanders did._ So should Republicans who supported people other tahn Trump put on their big boy pants and support the party’s favorite? What if they don’t feel like putting party before country? \*\*Right now, you are campaigning for Trump. \*\* Dont give me this “we” stuff. [/QUOTE] Are you accusing me of lying? Because these conversations get really tedious when we start doing that. But I may not be part of your “we” , i don’t put party before country. I’ve seen where that took the Republican party and I’m in no hurry to duplicate the effects on the Democratic side. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2016, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillarys-coattails-suck-only-trumps-are-worse-who-would-have-been-better/769774/77 "2016-10-30T17:28:38Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Continuing your trumping for Trump, I see? You realize this isn’t the pit, right? When I say I am not a Trump supporter, you are supposed to take me at my word especially when it is entirely consistent to be critical of someone so criticism worthy as Hillary while also not supporting someone like Trump. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2016, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillarys-coattails-suck-only-trumps-are-worse-who-would-have-been-better/769774/78 "2016-10-30T17:31:04Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Yeah, that’s _exactly_ what I don’t think. > > The Cook PVI of a state, Congressional district, or other area is a measure of how much an area has voted GOP or Dem in recent elections, relative to the nation as a whole. > > Saying a CD is R+2 is saying that in recent elections, it’s voted 2 percentage points more Republican than the nation as a whole has. > > The PVI has nothing to do with who is running in _this_ election. The results of this year’s election will be input into future PVI scores of states and CDs. Can you provide a link because I thought you were talking about current election polls. There are 26 districts that are currently held by Republicans that Obama won in 2012. These are flippable districts. How many of them do you think Hillary has helped flip? ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2016, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillarys-coattails-suck-only-trumps-are-worse-who-would-have-been-better/769774/79 "2016-10-31T01:33:23Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Continuing your trumping for Trump, I see? DrDeth, I am giving you a warning for this and previous posts in which you accuse Damuri Ajashi of being untruthful about supporting Trump. I’m giving it for being a jerk - and you’ll see that on the warning - but I could easily give it for a sideways accusation of lying. When Damuri Ajashi says he’s not for Trump you should take him at his word and not continue to accuse him of doing so. Especially not in the post I’ve quoted above. That one has no content other than to make the accusation. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2016, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillarys-coattails-suck-only-trumps-are-worse-who-would-have-been-better/769774/80 "2016-10-31T15:22:11Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Obama was a “real contender” because he’s Obama – a once-in-a-generation political talent. No one else could have caught her, and it was by the skin of his nose. And had she run a smarter campaign, and not ignored the caucus states, she would have won and Vice President Obama would now be running for his first term. > > An average Democrat (like Hillary) would have won in 2008, but not in a near-landslide, taking VA and NC and IN. We Democrats are a little spoiled because the last two Presidents we’ve had were incredible political talents, but Bill Clinton and Obama are unique, and we’d be incredibly lucky to see another one that talented in the next decade or two. Kaine isn’t that good, and neither are the other Democrats I like and hope will run in the next decade or two (Booker, Gillibrand, maybe the Castros, and several more), at least as far as one can tell this early. Clinton was an incredible political talent? You know how he won the 1992 election, right? Bush had 90+% approval ratings. A lot of guys didn’t run (Cuomo probably regretted not running in '92) and Clinton outran Jerry Brown. Clinton was running against a recession (“It’s the economy, stupid”) and a party that probably suffered because Perot ran. Since WWII the Democrats elected FDR, Truman, JFK, LBJ, Carter, Clinton and Obama. In that lineup, where do you put Clinton and Obama? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillarys-coattails-suck-only-trumps-are-worse-who-would-have-been-better/769774.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillarys-coattails-suck-only-trumps-are-worse-who-would-have-been-better/769774.md?page=5)