# Hillary's supporters need to calm down and stop depressing primary turnout. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [February 8, 2016, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillarys-supporters-need-to-calm-down-and-stop-depressing-primary-turnout/745507 "2016-02-08T01:59:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillarys-supporters-need-to-calm-down-and-stop-depressing-primary-turnout/745507/81 "2016-02-09T18:16:11Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I wonder if you’d mind rereading this paragraph and seeing if you notice any irony in it :). > [@Lightnin](#): > > Nope, not seeing it. Mind pointing it out for me? > [@Lightnin](#): > > Tell us to vote for Bernie. Don’t tell us to vote \*against \*Hillary. > …I honestly think that half of the vocal Sanders supporters are actually Republicans who think that Hillary’s going to be too hard to beat, so they’re doing everything to make sure that Sanders is going to get the nomination. You want Sanders supporters to support their candidate instead of attacking Clinton–and then you spend the rest of your post attacking Sanders via his supporters. You want us to vote for Clinton? Find–tell us to vote for her. Don’t tell us how terrible Sanders supporters are. I think there’s a very strong case to be made for Clinton, along the lines of, she’s extremely competent, she’s god a track record of finding consensus, she’s very organized, she’s got foreign policy experience. These are all great reasons to vote for her, and they’re why she’ll get my vote in the general if things go the way I expect they will. The case for Clinton does not consist in attacking Sanders supporters as Crypto-Republicans. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillarys-supporters-need-to-calm-down-and-stop-depressing-primary-turnout/745507/82 "2016-02-09T18:41:02Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Here’s a question in return: What brutal treatment? > > Most of the news reports I’ve read have emphasized how civil the campaign has been, not just in comparison to the Republicans but in historic terms. Good. It appears you read something into my post that wasn’t there. (Past performance is not a guarantee of future results.) ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillarys-supporters-need-to-calm-down-and-stop-depressing-primary-turnout/745507/83 "2016-02-09T19:14:20Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > You want Sanders supporters to support their candidate instead of attacking Clinton–and then you spend the rest of your post attacking Sanders via his supporters. > > You want us to vote for Clinton? Find–tell us to vote for her. Don’t tell us how terrible Sanders supporters are. Actually, if you paid attention to what I’ve written, I’m not attacking his supporters. I’m attacking his supporters who are acting like jerks. As I said, I fully intend to vote for Bernie- heck, I’d prefer for him to win. But if he doesn’t get the nomination, I’ll vote for Hillary. So, basically, I’m a Bernie supporter. I guess that means I’m attacking _myself_? ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillarys-supporters-need-to-calm-down-and-stop-depressing-primary-turnout/745507/84 "2016-02-09T21:27:08Z")
Here’s an idea. Why don’t we all take a deep breath and resolve that we aren’t going to make voting decisions, or arguments in support thereof, based on the assumption that random people on the Internet who support a particular candidate are typical of that candidate’s supporters? Particularly given that, as someone mentioned above, confirmation bias will always lead us to think that the other candidate’s supporters are stupider and ruder than our own team? Also: criticizing the other candidate, assuming such criticisms are true and relevant, is a perfectly legitimate method of supporting your own candidate. Note, as above, that “X’s supporters are so mean to Y’s supporters on Facebook!” is probably not true and certainly not relevant. And also: Sanders’ lack of appeal to minority voters is probably an insurmountable obstacle to him winning the nomination. It’s irrelevant in the context of discussing his hypothetical chances in the general election, unless someone has polling data showing that minority voters would jump to the GOP if Sanders were nominated. ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillarys-supporters-need-to-calm-down-and-stop-depressing-primary-turnout/745507/85 "2016-02-09T21:44:12Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > And it would be a coronation of an old moderate Democrat: a woman who would have been a Republican if she hadn’t married a southern Democratic politician, a women whose fandom act as if the Democratic Party exists to be her and her husband’s cult of personality. Hillary apparently represents privileged white women born before 1970 with post-graduate degrees, and a penumbra out from there of people who tick _some_ of those boxes. I’m totally feeling the Bern, and I thought your OP was spot on, but that’s not fair. Hillary, in her 20s, while working for a civil rights organization, went undercover in the South posing as a parent looking for an illegally segregated school for her daughter. It’s not hyperbolic to say she would have been at risk of being murdered had she been found out by the wrong people. This doesn’t sound to me like a woman who was ever in any danger of becoming a Republican. > [@foolsguinea](#): > > My beef is with anyone who’s trying to torpedo early the only remaining challenger to her in this primary season. I don’t think Bernie is a perfect candidate; who would be? I do believe an easy walk to the nomination for Hillary would be a disaster for the party, as it would fail to raise interest in the party. If you want Hillary to win, of course you want her to win as soon as possible, which by definition involves “torpedoing the only remaining challenger”. A long primary campaign, though it might be better for the party as a whole, increases her chances of not winning the nomination. It seems a bit much to argue that people in early primary states who actually support Clinton should instead vote for Sanders in order to make the race more interesting! ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillarys-supporters-need-to-calm-down-and-stop-depressing-primary-turnout/745507/86 "2016-02-09T21:49:27Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > This post is hard to argue with. Not because I agree with what you said but because there is so much wrong that it requires a book to correct. > > When people talk about demographics favoring the Democrats, they mean specifically that minorities will become the majority. Blacks (including African immigrants), Hispanics, and Asians (and maybe Muslims if their numbers increase to voting significance) are becoming local majorities in many states, some of which are now Red. Republicans would have to turn themselves inside out to get majorities. They are the future of the Democratic Party. I am aware of the idea. It is based on sloppy and fallacious reasoning, and does not fit my experience of my state’s Democratic Party. The majority of citizens \*do not vote. \*The majority of white citizens do not vote. The majority of black citizens do not vote. The majority of latino citizens do not vote. Just because a demographic is not voting for the GOP does not mean they are voting for you. And a Democratic Party of old privileged white insiders that offers nothing to young populist movements, that just sits back and waits to be voted in by a groundswell of young brown voters, will fail ever to see that materialize. And some state Democratic Parties are still full of white people who, low-key, are small-c conservative and uninterested in reaching out to black voters. Obama appealed to young people, and not only to young people; he had appeal across the whole range of voter ages. And he had appeal across races and social classes. He represented in his person integration and social progress. But the party hasn’t found a way to take that kind of ‘celebrity executive’ appeal and translate it to winning legislative seats. Democratic engagement is not something that automatically happens. Most people are capable of living as apolitical–even in oppressive societies, even in oppressive societies that nominally have the franchise. Ferguson, MO had bizarrely low turnout among people who lived there and owned land there, until the Mike Brown shooting and the political organization following that. And a majority certainly doesn’t automatically coalesce around you because you’re not quite as vile as your opponents. You don’t actually have laws forcing citizens to vote for one of two parties, nor even to vote at all. Democrats are not entitled to anyone’s vote just because Republicans have lost it. > [@](#): > > Your young socialist millennials are a mirage just as Ron Paul’s young libertarians were. They are loud but not numerous. And if you want to point a finger at groups who don’t vote in non-presidential elections, just glance in their direction. OK, I see you remain to be convinced on this. For future consideration: How many primaries has Ron Paul won? How did he do in his best showing at the Iowa caucuses? > [@](#): > > Younger voters are important, and would be critical if they voted. They don’t. They tend to run 30 percentage points lower than seniors even in presidential years. They vote in proportions about equal to the poor, the people who you say don’t vote at all. We agree about the facts but not the causes. Do you really think young people wouldn’t vote if a party catered to them? > [@](#): > > Historically, their voting percentages increase as they get more skin in the game: houses, kids, health care. Yelling at Wall Street, no matter how justified, is not a long-term strategy for committed voters. To the contrary, getting people involved through an issue that will never happen is a recipe for disaster, as the Democrats saw with Vietnam. I wasn’t aware that we never got out of Vietnam. Or do you mean something else I’m not understanding? > [@](#): > > This election is about getting a Democrat elected. No. This election \*year \*is about getting several hundred Democrats elected in multiple chambers across this country, and enough that there will still be Democrats after an off-year election loses seats for the President’s party. For a party with “Democrat” right in the name, y’all sure act like you think this is an elected monarchy. > [@](#): > > The party needs eight years to develop a core of young candidates that will be realistic nominees in the future. The party has had twenty-two years since the 1994 wave to work on that, and so far their brightest new stars have been two guys from Chicago–one is Prez, the other an asshole mayor–one guy from NYC who got canned for stupid use of the internet–and Elizabeth Warren, who’s not that young. I still say the party is hollow. But a party with more candidates Weiner’s age that talk more like Warren has a chance to contend. > [@](#): > > We’ve all seen how the Republican “deep bench” worked out for them. They’ll wind up with the weakest candidate in a generation. This proves nothing about politics beyond the particulars of the post-Gingrich GOP. > [@](#): > > Clinton can and will win. Can, yes. Will, probably not. And totally beside my point. > [@](#): > > Socialism as a caused labeled 'socialism" is a Trump-sized Loser. We’ll see. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillarys-supporters-need-to-calm-down-and-stop-depressing-primary-turnout/745507/87 "2016-02-09T22:01:48Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > So Bernie’s supporters hate Hillary because Bernie’s a better candidate? Fine. Tell us to vote for Bernie. Don’t tell us to vote \*against \*Hillary. Because when you do that, I honestly can’t tell if you’re a Bernie supporter or a Republican. I honestly think that half of the vocal Sanders supporters are actually Republicans who think that Hillary’s going to be too hard to beat, so they’re doing everything to make sure that Sanders is going to get the nomination. > > You may have mentioned this elsewhere in the thread, but assuming Hillary gets the nomination, would you vote for her? I was really hoping it wouldn’t come to that. I would vote for her to beat Ted Cruz, of course; or a fanatical hard-right Roman Catholic, like Rubio and probably Kasich. I may vote for her against Trump given his support of active ethnic violence so far. Against Christie, I really don’t know yet. Maybe. But no, I really am a socialist, I really do think that Hillary’s version of the Democratic Party is bad for poor people, and I really may vote Green in protest, although the set of circumstances in which I expect to do so is narrowing. If it’s her versus another Bush, I probably won’t actually decide to douse myself in gasoline and set myself on fire, but I will laugh with the mad laugh of despair. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillarys-supporters-need-to-calm-down-and-stop-depressing-primary-turnout/745507/88 "2016-02-09T22:07:03Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Yes, winning in November is the priority. The question is how best to achieve that. > > So far, the sparring between Hillary and Bernie seems amicable. Assuming that continues, which is better for Hillary: To emerge as the winner after a strong and fairly-fought challenge? Or to become the nominee early by brutal treatment of Sanders? > > I’m not sure of the answer to that, but I’ll guess a long fair fight will assuage Sanders’ supporters and make them more likely to vote in November. And if, somehow, it is Bernie that ends up with more delegates … well, that might well mean he’d be the stronger candidate after all. I should just let you make my cases for me, you do it better. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillarys-supporters-need-to-calm-down-and-stop-depressing-primary-turnout/745507/89 "2016-02-09T22:09:52Z")
They need to go at each other hammer and tongs. Clinton and Sanders are in danger of encountering lines of attack in the general election that they aren’t seeing now because Clinton won’t attack socialism from the right and Sanders ain’t interested in her damn emails, or any other ethical problems for that matter other than her Wall Street connections. The Republican nominee is going to have been hit with everything they can be hit with. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillarys-supporters-need-to-calm-down-and-stop-depressing-primary-turnout/745507/90 "2016-02-09T22:12:56Z")
Well I do think there is this idea that Bernie supporters are committed to socialism and so, wouldn’t vote Hillary in the general. Whereas Hillary supporters would hold their nose and vote Bernie over the right. I don’t think this is actually true… at the very least if the GOP gets smart and nominates Rubio, who, yes, does some some ridiculous positions, but can sometimes position himself sounding far more reasonable than he actually is. Centrist Democrats voting for the right wing candidate that sounds positive isn’t something in a fantasy FWIW - ‘Reagan Democrats’ (and a lot of them union members) come to mind. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillarys-supporters-need-to-calm-down-and-stop-depressing-primary-turnout/745507/91 "2016-02-09T22:15:36Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > I’m totally feeling the Bern, and I thought your OP was spot on, but that’s not fair. Hillary, in her 20s, while working for a civil rights organization, went undercover in the South posing as a parent looking for an illegally segregated school for her daughter. It’s not hyperbolic to say she would have been at risk of being murdered had she been found out by the wrong people. This doesn’t sound to me like a woman who was ever in any danger of becoming a Republican. Well, OK, fair enough; she’s not a racist “social conservative,” and the way I used “Republican” in that sentence was both unfair and pointless. The parties today are different than in her parents’ day. But I wonder about an alternate timeline where she married a northern Republican (like her father) and became a moderate voice in that party. How would she react to Gingrich in the 1990’s? > [@](#): > > If you want Hillary to win, of course you want her to win as soon as possible, which by definition involves “torpedoing the only remaining challenger”. A long primary campaign, though it might be better for the party as a whole, increases her chances of not winning the nomination. It seems a bit much to argue that people in early primary states who actually support Clinton should instead vote for Sanders in order to make the race more interesting! I’m not saying not to vote for her. I’m saying it’s worse for the party if it’s all a walk after South Carolina, like the Clintonites expect. I don’t think that helps progressives, really. I hope Bernie’s campaign does have legs, and I think it probably does. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillarys-supporters-need-to-calm-down-and-stop-depressing-primary-turnout/745507/92 "2016-02-09T22:17:15Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > If it’s her versus another Bush, I probably won’t actually decide to douse myself in gasoline and set myself on fire, but I will laugh with the mad laugh of despair. Laugh and the world laughs with you! 🙂 In mad despair. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2016, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillarys-supporters-need-to-calm-down-and-stop-depressing-primary-turnout/745507/93 "2016-02-10T02:46:04Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > Actually, if you paid attention to what I’ve written, I’m not attacking his supporters. I’m attacking his supporters who are acting like jerks. As I said, I fully intend to vote for Bernie- heck, I’d prefer for him to win. But if he doesn’t get the nomination, I’ll vote for Hillary. > > So, basically, I’m a Bernie supporter. I guess that means I’m attacking _myself_? Sorry, I haven’t been paying attention to which candidate you support based on other posts. When you said something about thinking half of vocal Sanders supporters were secretly Republicans, that sounded a bit like an attack on Sanders supporters. If that’s not what you meant, I misunderstood :). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillarys-supporters-need-to-calm-down-and-stop-depressing-primary-turnout/745507.md?page=4)