# Hil's too sexy for this pic, Sec of State's gonna leave me. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 9, 2011, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hils-too-sexy-for-this-pic-sec-of-states-gonna-leave-me/581255 "2011-05-09T11:03:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hils-too-sexy-for-this-pic-sec-of-states-gonna-leave-me/581255/101 "2011-05-10T12:54:18Z")
For what it’s worth, **CitizenPained** , I’m against ALL photo manipulation in news. I’m against “airbrushing” beautiful women’s thighs, I’m against inserting six packs on gorgeous men, I’m against “adjusting” colors to change skin tones. These things are all appropriate for _art_, I suppose, but the manipulation of reality in \*news \*should not be allowed - by journalistic ethics, if not by law. News isn’t there to present ideals, no matter whose ideals those are, it’s there to inform us of events as they happened, to the best of the news outlet’s professional ability to do so. And to remove people from an historic event is the grossest manipulation of reality there could be. Like I said, if they don’t like the picture, the responsible and ethical thing to do is to run the story without it. It should have no bearing on whether there was “fine print” on the photo - which is the only thing they’ve apologized for. They apologized for violating the instructions from the White House to not manipulate the photo. They never apologized for manipulating photos; they apologized for not reading the fine print. So yeah, I’m still pissed off. Really, what the hell are they teaching in journalism school these days? Do they have any sort of instruction on ethics and integrity any more? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hils-too-sexy-for-this-pic-sec-of-states-gonna-leave-me/581255/102 "2011-05-10T13:03:32Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Really, what the hell are they teaching in journalism school these days? Do they have any sort of instruction on ethics and integrity any more? Yes, that’s a vital part of journalism education. But I wouldn’t assume these people have any kind of instruction in journalism. That’s not necessarily the group of people you’ll find at a small community paper (and I’ve been down that road). The ethical issues around things like PhotoShopping pictures are complicated. It seems like everybody can agree on what’s over the line, but nobody agrees on what’s acceptable. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hils-too-sexy-for-this-pic-sec-of-states-gonna-leave-me/581255/103 "2011-05-10T13:04:40Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Really, what the hell are they teaching in journalism school these days? Do they have any sort of instruction on ethics and integrity any more? I seriously doubt if any of the religious kooks putting out that rag ever attended journalism school. I like the way they invented a left arm for the guy who was behind Hillary. What was that made out of? It looks like they drew it in with pencil. ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hils-too-sexy-for-this-pic-sec-of-states-gonna-leave-me/581255/104 "2011-05-10T13:38:27Z")
For those debating the importance of Jewish religious law in the decision to modify the picture, it’s worth mentioning that falsifying images unquestionably crosses the prohibition against _geneivat da’at_, deception/theft of knowledge. > [@CitizenPained](#): > > Also, I don’t read Yiddish, but can anyone tell me if she’s mentioned in the caption? I would also be very curious to know this. ---
**Author:** ![Shmendrik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shmendrik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shmendrik)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hils-too-sexy-for-this-pic-sec-of-states-gonna-leave-me/581255/105 "2011-05-10T13:50:27Z")
> [@SecondJudith](#): > > I would also be very curious to know this. The only people mentioned by name in the caption are President Obama and Admiral Mullen. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hils-too-sexy-for-this-pic-sec-of-states-gonna-leave-me/581255/106 "2011-05-10T13:54:42Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Sexual perversion is…the people are totally backwards and living in a fantasy world. Actually, they are literally trying to live in the past; they have organized their religious structure around the remnants of a bunch of villages and ghettos in Eastern Europe. I’ll never understand them. If you’re going to be that much into the Jewish faith, why not just move to Israel and live in the desert? Why do they deliberately ghetto-ize themselves into little enclaves in the city? > > To their credit, they’re one backwards religious group that is able to master things like technology and computers. That’s more than can be said for the majority of people with that kind of insular community. They at least arguably create something of value to society because most of them, I think, work “normal” jobs in the business sector when they’re not studying Torah. > > The Amish have better food, though, and are more stylish. These types, the kind extreme enought to photoshop out a pic of a woman, tend to hate the state of Israel with an abiding passion, so moving there would not be an improvement for them. They dislike about 90% or more of the Jews who actually exist (and the feeling is somewhat mutual). ---
**Author:** ![Shmendrik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shmendrik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shmendrik)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hils-too-sexy-for-this-pic-sec-of-states-gonna-leave-me/581255/107 "2011-05-10T14:01:14Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Sexual perversion is…the people are totally backwards and living in a fantasy world. Actually, they are literally trying to live in the past; they have organized their religious structure around the remnants of a bunch of villages and ghettos in Eastern Europe. I’ll never understand them. If you’re going to be that much into the Jewish faith, why not just move to Israel and live in the desert? Why do they deliberately ghetto-ize themselves into little enclaves in the city? Why would they be any more at home in the Israeli desert than in Williamsburg or Kiryat Joel? It’s not like most Israelis are anything like them. ---
**Author:** ![Shmendrik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shmendrik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shmendrik)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hils-too-sexy-for-this-pic-sec-of-states-gonna-leave-me/581255/108 "2011-05-10T14:04:10Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > They dislike about 90% or more of the Jews who actually exist (and the feeling is somewhat mutual). They dislike the beliefs and actions of about 90% or more of Jews, but in my experience they tend to have more of a condescending pity rather than a dislike for the Jews themselves. ---
**Author:** ![PlainJain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5daacb/32.png) [@PlainJain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlainJain)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hils-too-sexy-for-this-pic-sec-of-states-gonna-leave-me/581255/109 "2011-05-10T14:19:09Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Whatever. Go and Orthodox Jew bash, Clinton bash, or whatever it takes to inflate your dicks. :rolleyes: With this, I’ll wade in as I have no dick to inflate. Yes, honey, you do get our panties in a wad. This thread is (indirectly) about respecting Cinton, not bashing her. How you can so grossly mischaracterize the thrust of this thread is beyond me… unless everyone is right and you are an idiot. Oh, wait… ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hils-too-sexy-for-this-pic-sec-of-states-gonna-leave-me/581255/110 "2011-05-10T14:39:36Z")
> [@Shmendrik](#): > > They dislike the beliefs and actions of about 90% or more of Jews, but in my experience they tend to have more of a condescending pity rather than a dislike for the Jews themselves. Heh, my experience of the truly crazy ultra-orthodox is limited to the ones in Mea Shearim - those guys were most definitely not friendly. 😉 There is a big difference between these types and your ordinary average ultra-orthodox, who have more of a ‘too bad you don’t have the stuff to be as observant as us’ vibe. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hils-too-sexy-for-this-pic-sec-of-states-gonna-leave-me/581255/111 "2011-05-10T14:41:42Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > For what it’s worth, **CitizenPained** , I’m against ALL photo manipulation in news. I’m against “airbrushing” beautiful women’s thighs, I’m against inserting six packs on gorgeous men, I’m against “adjusting” colors to change skin tones. These things are all appropriate for _art_, I suppose, but the manipulation of reality in \*news \*should not be allowed - by journalistic ethics, if not by law. News isn’t there to present ideals, no matter whose ideals those are, it’s there to inform us of events as they happened, to the best of the news outlet’s professional ability to do so. And to remove people from an historic event is the grossest manipulation of reality there could be. > > Like I said, if they don’t like the picture, the responsible and ethical thing to do is to run the story without it. It should have no bearing on whether there was “fine print” on the photo - which is the only thing they’ve apologized for. They apologized for violating the instructions from the White House to not manipulate the photo. They never apologized for manipulating photos; they apologized for not reading the fine print. So yeah, I’m still pissed off. > > Really, what the hell are they teaching in journalism school these days? Do they have any sort of instruction on ethics and integrity any more? I’ve never heard of this publication before, but my guess is that the guys making it don’t know from journalism school. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hils-too-sexy-for-this-pic-sec-of-states-gonna-leave-me/581255/112 "2011-05-10T14:49:54Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Where are the threads on the 10,000 other publications that aren’t PC? Waiting for you to start them, probably. > [@CitizenPained](#): > > Who reasonably expects the paper to apologize for their religious beliefs? Their religious beliefs are fucking stupid. We rail against stupid religious beliefs all the time here. Have you not noticed? ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hils-too-sexy-for-this-pic-sec-of-states-gonna-leave-me/581255/113 "2011-05-10T14:51:20Z")
Fair enough, they may not have gone to journalism school. But these are not sixth graders like **jinx** ’s niece who didn’t know plagiarism was wrong. These are, presumably, grown men who have studied Torah and know that lying through pictures is, what was that phrase…_geneivat da’at_. Wrong. And if they don’t know that, then the rabbi in their community has some 'splainin to do. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hils-too-sexy-for-this-pic-sec-of-states-gonna-leave-me/581255/114 "2011-05-10T15:14:53Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I seriously doubt if any of the religious kooks putting out that rag ever attended journalism school. I doubt that as well. Hence my disinterest in a population that has .000000000001 per cent influence on the rest of America. And Kook = Look in Yididsh. 😛 Anyway, it seems as though _Miller_ would like to imply that I can’t read, or I’m an idiot, or that everytime I write something it is as if I wrote nothing, but all I pointed out was a) if you’re going to complain about what you view as sexist, at least get a grip on their intentions first and b) if you’re going to complain about someone’s stance on objectifying women, don’t uh, objectify women in response. I think there’s sexism abound in various Orthodox communities…but I also don’t participate. The women in Hasidic communities who don’t like it either leave Judaism entirely or they join another stream…something a little less cut off from the majority. It’s kind of like my position on the burqa. You want to wear it, go ahead. But don’t force it on me. That Herald ‘article’ was horrible. And they quoted a relatively unknown rabbi who criticizes orthodoxy all the time (and I only know this because I was wondering who this guy was so I went to his website to find out that he calls himself Conservative with a capital C but he’s part of the Recon movement) instead of getting a quote from, oh, I donno, the source? It was sensationalist. imho, it’s no better than Di Tzitung. What the Haredi do (or more specifically, the Hasidim in Brooklyn, since the Haredi in Denver are a quite different group) is their business. If this were Israel and they were controlling the Cabinet (or Denver City Council or Senate or anything that I’m a constituent of) that would be different. They have a their own interpretation of Jewish law…but to suggest (as the Herald oh so eloquently quoted a speculation) that they don’t print images of women in power because it makes them uncomfortable is just, well, bad reporting. I personally\*\* like\*\* having differences of opinion. As annoying as frum Jews can be (or Muslims or Evangelical Christians or atheists or Republicans or whatever) I do appreciate the discourse. My favorite rabbi is Yiddishe and I keep forgetting he was born here because of his accent. He’s Orthodox and teaches at my son’s school and the kids adore him. Everyone does. He’s great. Am I going to call him a misogynist because he’s a shade more frum than I? Uh, no. I’d prefer to hear something from his mouth first. Some groups try so hard to not objectify women that it’s ridiculous. Now it’s just counter-productive. No doubt plenty of men in the Brooklyn communities take advantage of it. The Haredi of 2011 is not the Haredi of post-WWII. But…in a world where women _are_ constantly objectified (remember the nutcracker jokes?) it makes them seem very grossly misguided, but not exactly _backwards_. In order for an idea to be backwards, the rest of the world would have to be…forward. Clearly, we’re not that much ahead. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hils-too-sexy-for-this-pic-sec-of-states-gonna-leave-me/581255/115 "2011-05-10T15:21:49Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Anyway, it seems as though _Miller_ would like to imply that I can’t read, or I’m an idiot Uh, **Miller** can speak for himself, but I don’t think he _implied_ you’re an idiot. > [@](#): > > a) if you’re going to complain about what you view as sexist, at least get a grip on their intentions first Their intentions are not any kind of mystery. They’re easy to understand. > [@](#): > > and b) if you’re going to complain about someone’s stance on objectifying women, don’t uh, objectify women in response. Which is a fair critique. > [@](#): > > I personally\*\* like\*\* having differences of opinion. You’re on a message board. That’s kind of a given for most of the people here. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hils-too-sexy-for-this-pic-sec-of-states-gonna-leave-me/581255/116 "2011-05-10T15:26:15Z")
Just a curious question - just how major a publication is this? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hils-too-sexy-for-this-pic-sec-of-states-gonna-leave-me/581255/117 "2011-05-10T15:34:12Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’m not familiar with Rabbi Jason Miller. Apparently, you’re carting around a hefty grudge against him. Perhaps you can substantiate your own claims against the man? In what way is he “outside of majority Judaism?” What evidence can you give that he has a grudge against the Orthodox community? How has he “passed himself off” as a Conservative Rabbi, and in what ways does he fail to meet the standards for that position? Well, his name’s Jason. Seriously, though, he is a Conservative Rabbi. He got his smicha from Jewish Theological Seminary (which is THE big Conservative seminary), and pretty much everything he’s done has been with Conservative congregations and organizations. He’s also founder of Kosher Michigan, which is a kosher certification agency. I don’t see anything to suggest he’s Reconstructionist at all. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hils-too-sexy-for-this-pic-sec-of-states-gonna-leave-me/581255/118 "2011-05-10T15:35:39Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Fair enough, they may not have gone to journalism school. But these are not sixth graders like **jinx** ’s niece who didn’t know plagiarism was wrong. These are, presumably, grown men who have studied Torah and know that lying through pictures is, what was that phrase…_geneivat da’at_. Wrong. And if they don’t know that, then the rabbi in their community has some 'splainin to do. Wild hunch that their male readers are well aware of their policy. 😛 In that community, _geneivat da’at_ does not apply since they are aiming to honor a woman (regardless of how backwards that appears). The paper has a longstanding policy to not print images of women (and yes, many many of these Haredi papers will blot out women in current events photos) and they don’t apologize for it. A lot of the Yiddishe that I know are traditionally Republican, although the Clintons and Biden are practically honorary jews. I didn’t hear a lot of concern about Palin or Clinton from Orthodox Jews - except when they learned Palin was happy to convert them. _shrug_ When I think of Brooklyn Hasidim, I think “sheitl+a horse of a different color”. It’s not so much that they don’t think _any_ woman should be in power. It’s when their _own_ women try to teach them Torah that they freak out. So yeah, it appears to be pretty stupid, but that’s their shindig. Haredi women are part of that shindig. If you wanna live in a bubble, be my guest. anyway, haven’t we already established that that sit room photo is _not_ of them watching OBL being captured? ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hils-too-sexy-for-this-pic-sec-of-states-gonna-leave-me/581255/119 "2011-05-10T15:48:36Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Their intentions are not any kind of mystery. They’re easy to understand. To be fair, I do think there has been a fair bit of misrepresentation/misunderstanding about tzunit: it isn’t just the Haredi version of a burqa (and burqa can be feminist too, or course). I can’t find the newspaper’s circulation on the US ABC site, but I have to confess I don’t know how those figures are collected. It might be too small to be listed. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hils-too-sexy-for-this-pic-sec-of-states-gonna-leave-me/581255/120 "2011-05-10T15:51:40Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > The paper has a longstanding policy to not print images of women (and yes, many many of these Haredi papers will blot out women in current events photos) and they don’t apologize for it. Which is, if you haven’t been following, why they’re assholes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hils-too-sexy-for-this-pic-sec-of-states-gonna-leave-me/581255.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hils-too-sexy-for-this-pic-sec-of-states-gonna-leave-me/581255.md?page=7)