# Him and I, he and me, she and me, and I and he were discussing grammar and... **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 12, 2010, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/him-and-i-he-and-me-she-and-me-and-i-and-he-were-discussing-grammar-and/546364 "2010-07-12T05:49:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/him-and-i-he-and-me-she-and-me-and-i-and-he-were-discussing-grammar-and/546364/1 "2010-07-12T05:49:40Z")
I swear that I was taught in school that when you’re referring to yourself and another person that you should refer to yourself as if the other person were not a factor. Thus, for example, if my friends Abe and Ben went to the store, I would say “Abe and Ben and I went to the store” or “They and I went to the store” or, referring to Abe or Ben singularly, I would say “He and I went to the store” because, if I were to omit Abe and Ben, I would say “I went to the store”. Increasingly, however, I am hearing the word “and me” or “me and” used instead in conversation and in movies/television, by real people or by fictional characters who are fairly well educated: “Me and him went to the store” “He and me went to the store” even though one would never say “Me went to the store” unless you were on an errand to return a Precious or buy Queen Amidala a Slurpee. Has this rule of grammar changed, or was it never a rule to begin with, or is it one of those “some say one/some say the other” things? ---
**Author:** ![Restaurateur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b38774/32.png) [@Restaurateur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Restaurateur)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/him-and-i-he-and-me-she-and-me-and-i-and-he-were-discussing-grammar-and/546364/2 "2010-07-12T05:54:05Z")
I think [this page](http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/page/145) explains all, namely this segment: > [@](#): > > Use the pronoun me, along with other objective pronouns such as us, him, her, you, and them, when the pronoun is the object of a preposition: > Rose spent the day with Jake and me. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/him-and-i-he-and-me-she-and-me-and-i-and-he-were-discussing-grammar-and/546364/3 "2010-07-12T06:01:27Z")
It is a common grammatical error, but I have noticed no sign of it becoming more common lately: if anything, the reverse. Indeed, according to many authorities, “Me went to the store” was almost universally used, and considered correct, in the paleolithic era. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/him-and-i-he-and-me-she-and-me-and-i-and-he-were-discussing-grammar-and/546364/4 "2010-07-12T06:03:00Z")
Me is okay in casual conversation. When the people are the object, never use I. It’s a hypercorrection and makes you look stupid: “Rose spent the day with Jake and I.” I am hearing this more and more lately. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/him-and-i-he-and-me-she-and-me-and-i-and-he-were-discussing-grammar-and/546364/5 "2010-07-12T06:12:07Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Me is okay in casual conversation. When the people are the object, never use I. It’s a hypercorrection and makes you look stupid: “Rose spent the day with Jake and I.” I am hearing this more and more lately. Thereagain, the correct way is as if Jake’s not part of the equation: you wouldn’t say “Rose spent the day with I”. I’m hearing this one a lot too, especially in TV/movies. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/him-and-i-he-and-me-she-and-me-and-i-and-he-were-discussing-grammar-and/546364/6 "2010-07-12T06:29:24Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Me is okay in casual conversation. When the people are the object, never use I. It’s a hypercorrection and makes you look stupid: “Rose spent the day with Jake and I.” I am hearing this more and more lately. It makes me look stupid? :eek: That’s exactly how I would phrase that. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/him-and-i-he-and-me-she-and-me-and-i-and-he-were-discussing-grammar-and/546364/7 "2010-07-12T06:41:50Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Has this rule of grammar changed, or was it never a rule to begin with, or is it one of those “some say one/some say the other” things? No, the rule hasn’t changed. Your way is correct. Obviously, we often allow more leeway for things like this in spoken or informal written usage than we do in more formal settings. If one of my students said “Him and me went to see the movie” or “She came to the movie with Joe and I,” in casual conversation with me, i probably wouldn’t correct the error, but if they made the same error in an essay, i would correct it. The funny thing is that people often use “I” instead of “me” as an object pronoun because they think it sounds more educated, or more formal. They think that saying “He came in the car with Rose and I” sounds more educated than “He came in the car with Rose and me.” It’s the latter, however, that is better grammar. The one that really gets me these days is the incredible overuse of the reflexive pronoun “myself.” People will say things like, “Can you give it to myself?” or “He’s going to stay with John and myself.” I think that this usage is also often a result of trying to sound more educated or more formal, but it just makes me cringe. ---
**Author:** ![Crawlspace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Crawlspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crawlspace)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/him-and-i-he-and-me-she-and-me-and-i-and-he-were-discussing-grammar-and/546364/8 "2010-07-12T06:47:30Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > It makes me look stupid? :eek: That’s exactly how I would phrase that. Rose is on trial for murder. The judge asks you where she was that day. Jake wasn’t there. Is it: “Rose spent the day with me,” or “Rose spent the day with I,”?\* WTF is the ruling on that quote question mark cluster fuck? ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/him-and-i-he-and-me-she-and-me-and-i-and-he-were-discussing-grammar-and/546364/9 "2010-07-12T06:52:27Z")
> [@Crawlspace](#): > > Rose is on trial for murder. The judge asks you where she was that day. Jake wasn’t there. Is it: “Rose spent the day with me,” or “Rose spent the day with I,”?\* “Rose spent the day with me.” But in what scenario would you use “I” and why? Which of these is correct: “You and I are going to be good friends.” “You and me are going to be good friends.” Because I’d use the first one. > [@Crawl](#): > > WTF is the ruling on that quote question mark cluster fuck? I think you’d put it “Rose spent the day with me” or “Rose spent the day with I”? Too many commas. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/him-and-i-he-and-me-she-and-me-and-i-and-he-were-discussing-grammar-and/546364/10 "2010-07-12T06:56:26Z")
The ones that make me crazy are “between you and I” and “between he and I”. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/him-and-i-he-and-me-she-and-me-and-i-and-he-were-discussing-grammar-and/546364/11 "2010-07-12T06:59:53Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > “You and I are going to be good friends.” > “You and me are going to be good friends.” > > Because I’d use the first one. Right, but in this case, “I” is a subject pronoun, not an object pronoun. Have a look at the differences here. The correct sentences are marked with an asterisk: You and I are going to be good friends.\* You and me are going to be good friends. John is going to be good friends with you and I. John is going to be good friends with you and me.\* In the first case, “You and I” constitute the subject of the sentence. In the second case, “You and me” constitute the object. A pretty good rule of thumb is that objects come after a preposition. If you see a word like: **to, with, from, of, without, under, above,** etc., followed by pronouns, then they are most likely object pronouns. There are plenty more prepositions, but you get the idea. ---
**Author:** ![asian\_riff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecccb3/32.png) [@asian\_riff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asian_riff)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/him-and-i-he-and-me-she-and-me-and-i-and-he-were-discussing-grammar-and/546364/12 "2010-07-12T07:04:41Z")
Sampiro, you are correct, and no, the rule hasn’t changed. Others are making it more complicated than it needs to be. “I” if you are the subject; “me” if you are the object, as already stated. If the sentence refers to more than one person, separate them out and it becomes obvious. > [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > Which of these is correct: > > “You and I are going to be good friends.” > “You and me are going to be good friends.” The first one. If you remove one of the two subjects, you get: “I am going to be a good friend.” or “Me am going to be a good friend.” It becomes extremely obvious which one is correct. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/him-and-i-he-and-me-she-and-me-and-i-and-he-were-discussing-grammar-and/546364/13 "2010-07-12T07:08:56Z")
OK. Me thinks me’ve got it now. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/him-and-i-he-and-me-she-and-me-and-i-and-he-were-discussing-grammar-and/546364/14 "2010-07-12T07:13:20Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > A pretty good rule of thumb is that objects come after a preposition. No, they don’t. Objects usually come after the main verb. Object clauses _may_ contain a preposition before the relevant noun or pronoun, but they equally well may not: e.g., “She kissed me passionately,” or “He told me all about it.” ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/him-and-i-he-and-me-she-and-me-and-i-and-he-were-discussing-grammar-and/546364/15 "2010-07-12T07:22:50Z")
> [@asian\_riff](#): > > If you remove one of the two subjects, you get: > > “I am going to be a good friend.” > > or > > “Me am going to be a good friend.” > > It becomes extremely obvious which one is correct. Well, yes, but, for we\* linguistic paleo-conservatives, “Me _um_ going to be a good friend,” is correct, whereas “I _um_ going to be a good friend,” is wrong. 😉 \*Or should that be “us”? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/him-and-i-he-and-me-she-and-me-and-i-and-he-were-discussing-grammar-and/546364/16 "2010-07-12T07:48:33Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > It makes me look stupid? :eek: That’s exactly how I would phrase that. And your point is . . . ? ---
**Author:** ![Manwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e480ec/32.png) [@Manwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Manwich)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/him-and-i-he-and-me-she-and-me-and-i-and-he-were-discussing-grammar-and/546364/17 "2010-07-12T08:43:23Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Has this rule of grammar changed, or was it never a rule to begin with, or is it one of those “some say one/some say the other” things? From what I understand, most teachers had it wrong. They didn’t properly understand English grammar. When you said: > [@](#): > > … referring to Abe or Ben singularly, I would say > > “He and I went to the store” > > because, if I were to omit Abe and Ben, I would say > > “I went to the store”. There is no reason why you need to break it down like that. “You and me are going to be good friends.” is a grammatical sentence. I will quote Stephen Pinker because he can explain it better than I can. [From here](http://pinker.wjh.harvard.edu/articles/media/1994_01_24_thenewrepublic.html). Bolding is mine. > [@](#): > > Probably no “grammatical error” has received as much scorn as “misuse” of pronoun case inside conjunctions (phrases with two parts joined by [and] or [or]). What teenager has not been corrected for saying [Me and Jennifer are going to the mall]? The standard story is that the object pronoun [me] does not belong in subject position – no one would say [Me is going to the mall] – so it should be [Jennifer and I]. People tend to misremember the advice as “When in doubt, say ‘so-and-so and I’, not ‘so-and-so and me’,” so they unthinkingly overapply it, resulting in hyper-corrected solecisms like [give Al Gore and I a chance] and the even more despised [between you and I]. > > But if the person on the street is so good at avoiding [Me is going] and [Give I a break], and even former Rhodes Scholars and Ivy League professors can’t seem to avoid [Me and Jennifer are going] and [Give Al and I a chance], might it not be the mavens that misunderstand English grammar, not the speakers? The mavens’ case about case rests on one assumption: \*\* if an entire conjunction phrase has a grammatical feature like subject case, every word inside that phrase has to have that grammatical feature, too. But that is just false. \*\* > > [Jennifer] is singular; you say [Jennifer is], not [Jennifer are]. The pronoun [She] is singular; you say [She is], not [She are]. But the conjunction [She and Jennifer] is not singular, it’s plural; you say [She and Jennifer are], not [She and Jennifer is.] **So a conjunction can have a different grammatical number from the pronouns inside it. Why, then, must it have the same grammatical [case] as the pronouns inside it? The answer is that it need not.** A conjunction is just not grammatically equivalent to any of its parts. If John and Marsha met, it does not mean that John met and that Marsha met. If voters give Clinton and Gore a chance, they are not giving Gore his own chance, added on to the chance they are giving Clinton; they are giving the entire ticket a chance. So just because [Al Gore and I] is an object that requires object case, it does not mean that \* is an object that requires object case. By the logic of grammar, the pronoun is free to have any case it wants. Please tell me if I have misunderstood something, I have been trying to get my head around this lately, too. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/him-and-i-he-and-me-she-and-me-and-i-and-he-were-discussing-grammar-and/546364/18 "2010-07-12T12:56:45Z")
> [@Manwich](#): > > “You and me are going to be good friends.” is a grammatical sentence. > Please tell me if I have misunderstood something, I have been trying to get my head around this lately, too. It is a grammatically incorrect sentence (from a prescriptivist view). Pinker argues against prescriptivism as a mechanism for “correcting” bad grammar. Put Pinker and a grammar question together, and you have the beginnings of the same argument we have every time a reader here wants to know what is “correct.” Make it easy: just check with me when you are not sure if a prescriptive rule is worthwhile or simply fodder for lesser pedants. Grammar rules should focus on clarity of communication. Following them has a secondary benefit of demonstrating an ability to learn. Deciding which rules are worth following is my job. If I am unavailable, try a common-sense approach [here](http://andromeda.rutgers.edu/~jlynch/Writing/) that still more or less pleads a prescriptivist approach to prevent language from sinking to the level of the least-capable. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/him-and-i-he-and-me-she-and-me-and-i-and-he-were-discussing-grammar-and/546364/19 "2010-07-12T13:04:27Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > The one that really gets me these days is the incredible overuse of the reflexive pronoun “myself.” People will say things like, “Can you give it to myself?” or “He’s going to stay with John and myself.” I think that this usage is also often a result of trying to sound more educated or more formal, but it just makes me cringe. Amen. However I think the origin of the usage is incompetence. The speaker is unsure whether or not to use “me.” And if Susie went to the store with him and me, the speaker is really anxious over what to use… ---
**Author:** ![Billdo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/billdo/32/315_2.png) [@Billdo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Billdo)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/him-and-i-he-and-me-she-and-me-and-i-and-he-were-discussing-grammar-and/546364/20 "2010-07-12T13:27:05Z")
[She and him](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/She_%26_Him) is the indie folk duo of Zooey Deschanel and M. Ward. and shouldn’t this be in Cafe Society? Or did I read the OP wrong? 😉 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/him-and-i-he-and-me-she-and-me-and-i-and-he-were-discussing-grammar-and/546364.md?page=2)