# Himmler's Posen speech - what was his thinking? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 10, 2015, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/himmlers-posen-speech-what-was-his-thinking/734208 "2015-10-10T22:23:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/himmlers-posen-speech-what-was-his-thinking/734208/1 "2015-10-10T22:23:30Z")
In the first week of October 1943, Heinrich Himmler gave [two speeches in the Polish city of Posen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posen_speeches) in which he acknowledged explicitly “the extermination of the Jewish people”. What I find most remarkable about them is not so much that he discussed such a sensitive subject ‘publicly’, but that he permitted the speeches to be transcribed and an audio recording made. The Nazis went to great pains to keep their implementation of the Final Solution secret; from using euphemisms (“resettlement”) to exhuming and then burning Jews exterminated in the first half of the war under the so-called [_Aktion_ 1005](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonderaktion_1005) (there is even [a claim](http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/holoprelude/bormann.html), supposedly made by [Seyss-Inquart](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Seyss-Inquart) that Himmler was strongly admonished after he was overheard by telephone operators telling [Bormann](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Bormann) about the “extermination” of the Jews and had not used the term “resettlement”). My question, then, is why - why did he violate Nazi and state protocol in openly discussing the killing of the Jews? Does anyone have ideas as to what led Himmler to allow his speech to be recorded by phonograph (part of which can be _heard_ [here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Himmler_Posen_Speech_-_Extermination_of_the_Jews_excerpt,_Oct_4,_1943.ogg))? (Apologies if this is felt to be better suited for a forum other than GQ. I wasn’t sure where it belonged.) ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/himmlers-posen-speech-what-was-his-thinking/734208/2 "2015-10-10T22:29:02Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > (Apologies if this is felt to be better suited for a forum other than GQ. I wasn’t sure where it belonged.) Since there may be different opinions on the subject, let’s move this to Great Debates. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/himmlers-posen-speech-what-was-his-thinking/734208/3 "2015-10-10T22:46:14Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > What I find most remarkable about them is not so much that he discussed such a sensitive subject ‘publicly’, but that he permitted the speeches to be transcribed and an audio recording made. I’m guessing he never expected the speeches to be made public, even if transcribed and recorded. After all they were secret speeches delivered at closed events for SS insiders. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/himmlers-posen-speech-what-was-his-thinking/734208/4 "2015-10-10T22:49:52Z")
Maybe he was thinking about history? You know, that it was something that couldn’t be talked about now, but sometime in the future, in his kids’ time, or his grandkids’ time, there’d at least be a record of it. ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/himmlers-posen-speech-what-was-his-thinking/734208/5 "2015-10-10T22:54:45Z")
There is possibly the aspect that at that stage of the war he was aware that they were going to lose and that the actions of the Nazi’s were going to become public knowledge anyway so he wanted to spread the blame. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/himmlers-posen-speech-what-was-his-thinking/734208/6 "2015-10-10T22:54:50Z")
Maybe Himmler was struggling with the brutal reality of the Holocaust. He goes into some detail on the horrors involved in mass extermination, and one gets the impression this is him convincing himself that the endeavor is still worthy. Why the Nazis allowed him to give the speech…it’s odd and (obviously) quite out of character. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/himmlers-posen-speech-what-was-his-thinking/734208/7 "2015-10-10T22:59:54Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Why the Nazis allowed him to give the speech…it’s odd and (obviously) quite out of character. He was the Nazi; save Hitler. He controlled the security apparatus. No one would have been able to stop him. ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/himmlers-posen-speech-what-was-his-thinking/734208/8 "2015-10-10T23:24:37Z")
Further to my post above, I believe the Posen speech is referenced in the book, “The Villa, the Lake, the Meeting: Wannsee and the Final Solution” by Mark Roseman where the author states that the reason for the speech was so that when all was done and dusted and accounts were being settled other senior Nazi’s couldn’t say they didn’t know what was really going on. I don’t have the book at hand to confirm that though. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/himmlers-posen-speech-what-was-his-thinking/734208/9 "2015-10-10T23:42:55Z")
> [@Disposable Hero](#): > > Further to my post above, I believe the Posen speech is referenced in the book, “The Villa, the Lake, the Meeting: Wannsee and the Final Solution” by Mark Roseman where the author states that the reason for the speech was so that when all was done and dusted and accounts were being settled other senior Nazi’s couldn’t say they didn’t know what was really going on. **Disposable Hero** and everyone else: Thanks, I appreciate your input. It seems reasonable to presume that the reason he said what he said was to have a record for (a Nazi) posterity and also, as you say, to spread the blame around. That all makes sense. I still don’t understand why he allowed it to be recorded. In the absence of a voice recording, if he (or anyone/everyone else) was confronted by the transcript at some point in the future, it could always be insisted that the transcript was a forgery. OTOH, there could be no denying that was _his_ voice on the record. Maybe he simply forgot that the red light was on (so to speak). But, even if he did, you’d think that the moment he realized it, he’d have made sure the master recording and any copies were destroyed. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/himmlers-posen-speech-what-was-his-thinking/734208/10 "2015-10-10T23:54:53Z")
You know, this sort of revisionist history bewilders me beyond all bewildering. The Nazis thought that they were doing right. They thought that history would applaud them for their actions. Himmler wasn’t worried that a record of his speech would prove his guilt; he was worried that a lack of a record of his speech would prevent him receiving the plaudits that he would so richly deserve. Good heavens. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/himmlers-posen-speech-what-was-his-thinking/734208/11 "2015-10-11T00:02:55Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > You know, this sort of revisionist history bewilders me beyond all bewildering. The Nazis thought that they were doing right. They thought that history would applaud them for their actions. Himmler wasn’t worried that a record of his speech would prove his guilt; he was worried that a lack of a record of his speech would prevent him receiving the plaudits that he would so richly deserve. Except that it is counter to everything they were doing to suppress ALL real time discussion of their extermination efforts. If you believe his intent was to leave a legacy, then why the dressing down by Bormann? Why go through the huge hassle of exhuming a million or so rotting corpses in order to burn them? And, if it’s a legacy he was after, why just the one speech? To _ensure_ a legacy, he would have given it over and over again at different sites, to different (SS) groups, and at different times. No, the Posen speech is totally anomalous. It is at odds with everything else the Nazis were doing (or not). ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/himmlers-posen-speech-what-was-his-thinking/734208/12 "2015-10-11T00:35:32Z")
I think some of the nuance of the German culture at that time has been lost. Himmler wasnt actively trying to exterminate the Jews. He was ordered to by Hitler. I read somewhere last week researching another thread that Himmler was seen diur and depressed and complaining that he had been ordered to carry out the Final Solution. The culture at that time required good Germans to carry out their orders whatever the personal cost for the good of the country and the Fuhrer. Remember Brownings book on Police Battalian 101. They were from Hamburg and tended to be left leaning. They were not Nazis. But they were compelled by their orders and peer pressure to kill. IMO and only MO that even in 1943 as the Soviets were closing in on the killing fields that the SS men were trying to come to terms with their consciences. Very few were flat out psychopathic murderers. Its almost impossible for people of our age and modern generations to understand the mindset of both Nazi and Soviet murderers. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/himmlers-posen-speech-what-was-his-thinking/734208/13 "2015-10-11T08:20:31Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Himmler wasnt actively trying to exterminate the Jews. He was ordered to by Hitler. Was he? ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/himmlers-posen-speech-what-was-his-thinking/734208/14 "2015-10-11T08:43:22Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > Was he? Yes he was…butressed by statements from secretaries who saw Himmler directly after the meeting where Hitler ordered the Holocaust. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/himmlers-posen-speech-what-was-his-thinking/734208/15 "2015-10-11T10:48:58Z")
\*\*Himmler’s Posen speech - what was his thinking? \*\*I believe his thinking was “God_damn_, but I really hate them Jews !” ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/himmlers-posen-speech-what-was-his-thinking/734208/16 "2015-10-11T14:09:26Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Yes he was…butressed by statements from secretaries who saw Himmler directly after the meeting where Hitler ordered the Holocaust. Which meeting would that be? A cite would be great. Thanks in advance. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/himmlers-posen-speech-what-was-his-thinking/734208/17 "2015-10-11T15:11:55Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > Which meeting would that be? A cite would be great. Thanks in advance. As to whether Hitler ordered the Holocaust check this out: [http://ww2history.com/experts/Sir\_Ian\_Kershaw/Hitler\_and\_the\_Holocaust](http://ww2history.com/experts/Sir_Ian_Kershaw/Hitler_and_the_Holocaust) > [@](#): > > LAURENCE REES: But since there is no written order linking Hitler with the Holocaust, is it possible to argue that all of this might possibly have been originated at the Himmler, Heydrich level? Originated by them in the hope of pleasing Hitler? How certain can we be that Hitler is ultimately responsible for the Holocaust? > > SIR IAN KERSHAW: Well, he’s the head of that state so could be regarded as having overall responsibility for what happens in that state. In particular in that type of leadership state where the leader’s word is actually taken more or less as law. But actually it goes beyond that, because it’s not just a matter of Hitler’s rhetoric and the fact that, as the death camps are involved in their grisly business in slaughtering millions of Jews in 1942 and ’43, Hitler actually repeats his so-called prophecy, publicly, on several occasions. But even that then is a rhetorical statement you could say. But beneath that then there are things which everybody from Himmler downwards says – he speaks about a commission, he’s following up a commission, he speaks about – as always people do – about following the wishes of the Fuehrer and so on. > > This is a regime that doesn’t write down things – Hitler is a very un-bureaucratic type of leader so what you will not expect from this is a set of cabinet minutes where Hitler has said ‘right, now I’m taking the decision here and now to exterminate the Jews.’ It just simply didn’t work like that, but Hitler’s fingerprints are all over all the main steps in that. And also when it comes to all the crucial steps, such as deporting the Jews from Germany to the East into the Lodz Ghetto for example, the deportation of the Reich Jews could not be taken without Hitler’s authorisation. The imposition of the yellow star on the sleeve of German Jews in September 1940 couldn’t happen unless Hitler approved of it. > > So all these steps also needed Hitler’s authorisation and approval, so it is actually just stretching credulity too far to believe that in this absolutely critical development of moving to all out genocide, where Hitler’s been speaking throughout his entire career about the need to destroy the Jews, that this somehow happens without him approving of it, authorising it and just not even knowing about it, just is not believable. > > LAURENCE REES: Could we put it the other way round then, and say that this simply couldn’t have happened, if it hadn’t been for Hitler? > > SIR IAN KERSHAW: Again I think you say that if you put the proposition that way: ‘no Hitler no Holocaust’, I would agree with that. By the time we’re speaking about, now in 1941 and ’42, of course you’ve got a momentum we’ve been talking about that’s built up of, in particular, the police apparatus which has its own momentum, but that momentum itself has come from a whole number of steps prior to that which Hitler has backed and approved of and ok’d at every stage and given his imprimatur to, given his authorisation to, has legitimised. > > So, as the head of the state he’s actually represented these policies which have been carried in that way, so in this sense you can, I think, truly say that Hitler was absolutely essential to the carrying out of the Holocaust. So Hitler is a necessary but not sufficient cause of the overall explanation but still you’d say or I would say ‘no Hitler no Holocaust.’ ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/himmlers-posen-speech-what-was-his-thinking/734208/18 "2015-10-11T15:20:21Z")
> [@](#): > > This page of glory in our history has never been written and will never be written This quote from the Posnan speech indicates that no one save the listeners was to ever hear of it. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/himmlers-posen-speech-what-was-his-thinking/734208/19 "2015-10-11T15:23:14Z")
Here we go… [http://www.holocaust-history.org/hitler-final-solution/](http://www.holocaust-history.org/hitler-final-solution/) > [@](#): > > itler’s secretary remembers a private meeting between Himmler and Hitler in the early spring of 1941, after which Himmler sat at her desk with a very troubled look on his face, put his head in his hands and said: “My God, my God, what I am expected to do”. [3] She is convinced that that was the day Hitler ordered him to murder the Jews. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/himmlers-posen-speech-what-was-his-thinking/734208/20 "2015-10-11T15:55:39Z")
That doesn’t mean he wasn’t in favor of it. Most people who get a big project dumped on their desk have as their first reaction, “Holy crap, how the hell am I going to get this done?”, and being told you’re in charge of killing nine and a half million people is a pretty big project. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/himmlers-posen-speech-what-was-his-thinking/734208.md?page=2)