# Hines Ward voted "dirtiest player" in the NFL. **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [November 5, 2009, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hines-ward-voted-dirtiest-player-in-the-nfl/516416 "2009-11-05T14:05:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hines-ward-voted-dirtiest-player-in-the-nfl/516416/121 "2009-11-11T18:53:56Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > I just watched that Rivers hit. I’m completely floored by the controversy surrounding it. He didn’t sneak up on Rivers. He was openly running toward hit to throw a block. Rivers was not blindsided, or if he was, it was his own damn fault. I saw Ward lay the wood on an opposing team member, like he’s supposed to do. > > It was a brilliant block. Textbook. What’s the trouble? 😕 As a Bengals fan, I hated the Rivers hit because it ended his season, but even I had to admit that one wasn’t really all that bad. Rivers was active in pursuit of the ballcarrier, and Ward nailed him. There are far more egregious examples than that one. That Holly hit has to be one of the worst I’ve seen. There was absolutely no reason for it. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hines-ward-voted-dirtiest-player-in-the-nfl/516416/122 "2009-11-11T18:55:57Z")
From this week’s [Monday Morning Quarterback](http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/peter_king/11/08/mmqb/4.html): [QUOTE=SI’s Peter King] Hines Ward knows the drill by now. Some media outlet (in this case, your good friends at SI) does a story or polls players and comes to the conclusion that Ward’s the dirtiest player in football. SI did its annual player poll and that’s the way the players voted. It evoked a little more than a shrug from Ward when we spoke the other day. "Not much I can do about it, and I’m pretty used to it by now,‘’ said Ward. "But it does piss me off. If I was a dirty player, would my coach [Mike Tomlin] tell me, ‘Don’t change a thing you do?’ ‘’ Ward thinks it’s his reputation now, and not current information, that keeps him winning titles like this. Whatever, I find it interesting that Ward has been penalized once this year in seven games for unnecessary roughness and hasn’t been fined yet. Not that he hasn’t had his share of edgy hits, of course, including the clobbering of Bengals linebacker Keith Rivers that kayoed Rivers for the season last year and caused the NFL to implement a rules change outlawing high blindside hits. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hines-ward-voted-dirtiest-player-in-the-nfl/516416/123 "2009-11-11T19:16:07Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > I just watched that Rivers hit. I’m completely floored by the controversy surrounding it. He didn’t sneak up on Rivers. He was openly running toward hit to throw a block. Rivers was not blindsided, or if he was, it was his own damn fault. I saw Ward lay the wood on an opposing team member, like he’s supposed to do. > > It was a brilliant block. Textbook. What’s the trouble? 😕 It was a blindside block that took a year away from a player. There is a reason that the NFL changed their rules after the hit and made it a blindside block if it comes from the blocker’s helmet, forearm or shoulder and lands to the head or neck area of the defender illegal. And here was Hines’ response to the change: “I’ll still hit him,” Ward said Wednesday in Pittsburgh. “I’ll just get fined. There’s nothing I can do about it. It’s either that or try to hurt somebody. So are you going to fine me, or do you want me to end someone’s career? I’d rather take a fine than try to end somebody’s career, so I’m not going to change.” To Hines, he only has two choices, break the rule and blindside a player with a shot to the head or neck or to go for the knees. God knows he can’t possibly just block the guy without hitting him illegally. For the poll, Ward is a dirty player. A fan of the Steelers, a complete non fan of many Steeler fans. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hines-ward-voted-dirtiest-player-in-the-nfl/516416/124 "2009-11-11T19:38:33Z")
Sorry about the player’s jaw, but he pretty clearly took Rivers in the left arm/shoulder and chest, not the helmet. It looks to be “whiplash” that probably broke his jaw. That’s throwing a clean, hard block. His coaches love it. ---
**Author:** ![HongKongFooey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c4cdca/32.png) [@HongKongFooey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HongKongFooey)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hines-ward-voted-dirtiest-player-in-the-nfl/516416/125 "2009-11-11T19:42:41Z")
I’m surprised the hit resulted in a broken jaw really. I’ve seen that clip a lot lately and it seems to just have been some bad luck for Rivers whether he was expecting the hit or not. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hines-ward-voted-dirtiest-player-in-the-nfl/516416/126 "2009-11-11T22:02:58Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > Sorry about the player’s jaw, but he pretty clearly took Rivers in the left arm/shoulder and chest, not the helmet. It looks to be “whiplash” that probably broke his jaw. Wow, I had not heard that one before. A “whiplash” broken jaw. Not from Ward’s helmet going into the guys neck and head, but from whiplash. Interesting theory. Not one I ascribe to, of course, but interesting theory. He put his right shoulder on River’s left shoulder, and put his helmet right under his chin/facemask, breaking his jaw. It wasn’t illegal when he did it, but they changed the rule to make it illegal, and he says he’d still do it. I can’t find any way that doesn’t indicate that he’s not dirty. ---
**Author:** ![HongKongFooey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c4cdca/32.png) [@HongKongFooey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HongKongFooey)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hines-ward-voted-dirtiest-player-in-the-nfl/516416/127 "2009-11-11T22:58:34Z")
You don’t like to let reality intrude on your rants do you? The Holley hit was clearly late but Rivers was chasing down a ball carrier and Hines Ward blocked him, simple; a ~200 lb wide receiver decleated a linebacker. Similar blocks occur all the time on special teams. It’s Hines Ward’s fault that Rivers wasn’t prepared for it? Bullshit. Rivers made a rookie mistake and it cost him his season. Some people were calling Ray Lewis dirty last year too when they said they were going to knock Rashard Mendenhall out of the lineup and then broke his shoulder but it was a clean hit too. Mendenhall had to learn to protect himself against NFL linebackers and Rivers had to learn to keep his head on a swivel (I know that expression is overused but it’s accurate too). I’d like to find the replay from the next meeting when someone tried to throw a crackback block on James Harrison and got put down. Veteran LBs have that awareness, the ones who don’t learn find new jobs. To accuse him of a blind-side hit on a play like that is like accusing a DE of being dirty when sacking a QB from the blind side. On certain plays you have to be ready to be hit. Maybe they could put one of those deer whistles on Ward’s helmet so opposing players can hear him coming. Would that make you happy? ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hines-ward-voted-dirtiest-player-in-the-nfl/516416/128 "2009-11-11T23:13:19Z")
> [@HongKongFooey](#): > > You don’t like to let reality intrude on your rants do you? The Holley hit was clearly late but Rivers was chasing down a ball carrier and Hines Ward blocked him, simple; a ~200 lb wide receiver decleated a linebacker. Is it too much to ask for you to actually read what I type, or is that yet another Steeler fan attribute. I said nothing about the hit being late, or that Ward didn’t block him. He did. He blocked him with his shoulder and helmet that went into River’s shoulder and head, and Rivers ended up with a broken jaw (note: not “whiplash” jaw). > [@HongKongFooey](#): > > Similar blocks occur all the time on special teams. It’s Hines Ward’s fault that Rivers wasn’t prepared for it? Bullshit. Who the fuck are you arguing against anyway, the voices in your head? Once again, I never said that it was Ward’s fault that Rivers wasn’t prepared for it. Do try to pay attention. > [@HongKongFooey](#): > > Rivers made a rookie mistake and it cost him his season. And Ward stuck his shoulder and helmet into River’s shoulder/neck/ and head. As I’ve said, it wasn’t illegal at the time, but you ignore the fact that, because of the hit, the rule was changed. And Ward insists that, even with the change, he’d do it again. Because, apparently, it doesn’t occur to Ward that he can block without leading with this shoulder/helmet into the neck and head of an opposing player. ---
**Author:** ![HongKongFooey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c4cdca/32.png) [@HongKongFooey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HongKongFooey)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hines-ward-voted-dirtiest-player-in-the-nfl/516416/129 "2009-11-11T23:19:43Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Who the fuck are you arguing against anyway, the voices in your head? No, the voices in my head think you’re wrong too. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hines-ward-voted-dirtiest-player-in-the-nfl/516416/130 "2009-11-12T01:46:28Z")
It wasn’t even his helmet that made the primary hit! It wasn’t dirty. He wasn’t leading with the head. He laid a clean, massive block. Good for him. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hines-ward-voted-dirtiest-player-in-the-nfl/516416/131 "2009-11-12T02:40:09Z")
I don’t have a problem with the Keith Rivers hit. It was obviously necesary/useful, and it was just a fluke that the guy got injured from it. In general, there seems to be an assumption that injury-creating hits are dirty and ones where the guy gets right up after aren’t, but that’s just results-oriented thinking. Most of Ward’s “big hits” are either clean or… not outright dirty. He leads with his helmet too much and goes for the opponent helmet too much, but generally that isn’t the sort of thing I’m talking about. Problem is that I can’t find much video evidence of what I’m referring to because the NFL takes down most youtube videos, and they tend not to mention/show the actual dirty hits on their highlight videos. I did google “Hines Ward Dirty Player” and saw several blogs referring to youtube videos that claim to show his dirty hits… but they were taken down by the NFL. When I say Ward is dirty, I’m not referring to the Rivers hit and stuff like that. I’m referring to mostly when he’s on the other side of the field from where the play is, and both he and the defender are doing the half-ass jog thing that players who aren’t at all involved in the play do, when suddenly he sprints up and spears the defender who has no reason to protect himself, sometimes after the play is over. This happens a lot with him and it doesn’t generally result in injuries, which means it usually doesn’t warrant discussion or make replay/highlight material. But if you watch closely it happens all the time. He’ll wait till a defender isn’t guarding himself, because they’re both away from the play and/or because he goes for the hit after the play is over. The Holly hit is more in line with what I’m talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hines-ward-voted-dirtiest-player-in-the-nfl/516416/132 "2009-11-12T02:40:18Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > It wasn’t even his helmet that made the primary hit! It wasn’t dirty. He wasn’t leading with the head. He laid a clean, massive block. Good for him. He led with his right shoulder and helmet. The right shoulder hit Rivers’ left shoulder. Fine block. But at the same time, his helmet cracks River’s right in the chin, breaking his jaw. Not so fine. Hence, the rule change. ---
**Author:** ![Crawlspace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Crawlspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crawlspace)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hines-ward-voted-dirtiest-player-in-the-nfl/516416/133 "2009-11-12T04:02:13Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > In any event, I have yet to see any of these so-called “dirty” plays. The fines that he has drawn didn’t even get flagged during the games. So he’s a hell of a blocker and he doesn’t shy away from hits. I guess that makes him dirty. Of course, he’s got nothing on Rodney Harrison, not to mention former players like Bill Romanowski and Conrad Dobler. I’m no fan of football. In fact I think it is the most boring, unskilled major professional sport and has only survived as a means for aging meat heads to think that they too were once tough enough to lace’em up and speak of war as if they’ve been in one. That said, I’ve seen some clips of your boy. By any measure of competition and sportsmanship he’s dirty. Full speed hits on a guy jogging towards an out of bounds play are not hard nosed. Nor are hits on opponents nowhere near the ball. They’re pathetic attempts at intimidation and bodily injury that have no place in sports. You think your boy is a real man? Get him to roll up his skirt, shove in a tampon and head out to play something like rugby. Let’s see how hard he hits unsuspecting competitors then. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hines-ward-voted-dirtiest-player-in-the-nfl/516416/134 "2009-11-12T06:58:46Z")
> [@Crawlspace](#): > > I’m no fan of football. In fact I think it is the most boring, unskilled major professional sport and has only survived as a means for aging meat heads to think that they too were once tough enough to lace’em up and speak of war as if they’ve been in one. > > That said, I’ve seen some clips of your boy. By any measure of competition and sportsmanship he’s dirty. Full speed hits on a guy jogging towards an out of bounds play are not hard nosed. Nor are hits on opponents nowhere near the ball. They’re pathetic attempts at intimidation and bodily injury that have no place in sports. > > You think your boy is a real man? Get him to roll up his skirt, shove in a tampon and head out to play something like rugby. Let’s see how hard he hits unsuspecting competitors then. Rugby players would die en masse in football. ---
**Author:** ![Crawlspace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Crawlspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crawlspace)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hines-ward-voted-dirtiest-player-in-the-nfl/516416/135 "2009-11-12T08:15:19Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > Rugby players would die en masse in football. I doubt it. Though what’s quite obvious to even a casual observer of both sports is that the average NFL player would be down on the ground clutching his chest after 30 seconds of live, continuous action in a rugby game. But all of this is inconsequential to the point I made. If the wuss Hiney Ward had to make those hits on unsuspecting players while wearing nothing but a jersey, they wouldn’t have been made. In the plays I saw he hid behind his protective armor for the sole purpose of inflicting harm on his opponents. He is a dirty player. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hines-ward-voted-dirtiest-player-in-the-nfl/516416/136 "2009-11-12T13:58:49Z")
> [@Crawlspace](#): > > I doubt it. Though what’s quite obvious to even a casual observer of both sports is that the average NFL player would be down on the ground clutching his chest after 30 seconds of live, continuous action in a rugby game. > > . You don’t know what you’re talking about. NFL players are conditioned better, they’re bigger, and they’re faster than rugby players. Assuming you could neutralize any advantage that would be gained from experience, it would be an absolute and complete slaughter. ---
**Author:** ![HongKongFooey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c4cdca/32.png) [@HongKongFooey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HongKongFooey)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hines-ward-voted-dirtiest-player-in-the-nfl/516416/137 "2009-11-12T15:41:57Z")
As a former rugby player and avid football fan I think the typical NFL player would suffer from lack of conditioning in a rugby game mainly because they are conditioned for burst type activity rather than the more sustained activity on the rugby pitch. They would adapt though. There are quite a few NFL players who have played rugby though. What I disagree more with is the implication that dirty play wouldn’t be tolerated in rugby. I played forward; the stuff that goes on in the scrum is worse than anything I’ve seen in football. Comparing who’s tougher is comparing apples to apples. Both sports require a lot of toughness regardless of the difference in equipment. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hines-ward-voted-dirtiest-player-in-the-nfl/516416/138 "2009-11-12T16:04:06Z")
> [@Crawlspace](#): > > I doubt it. Though what’s quite obvious to even a casual observer of both sports is that the average NFL player would be down on the ground clutching his chest after 30 seconds of live, continuous action in a rugby game. > > But all of this is inconsequential to the point I made. If the wuss Hiney Ward had to make those hits on unsuspecting players while wearing nothing but a jersey, they wouldn’t have been made. In the plays I saw he hid behind his protective armor for the sole purpose of inflicting harm on his opponents. He is a dirty player. They’d be crushed like insects on a windshield. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hines-ward-voted-dirtiest-player-in-the-nfl/516416/139 "2009-11-12T16:18:30Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > You don’t know what you’re talking about. NFL players are conditioned better, they’re bigger, and they’re faster than rugby players. Assuming you could neutralize any advantage that would be gained from experience, it would be an absolute and complete slaughter. _Conditioned better_? They play a game in which there are stoppages every 10 seconds. You must be high. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hines-ward-voted-dirtiest-player-in-the-nfl/516416/140 "2009-11-12T16:24:23Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > _Conditioned better_? They play a game in which there are stoppages every 10 seconds. You must be high. No, you don’t now what you’re talking about either. Conditioning isn’t about what happens on the field, it’s about what one does on a regular basis. On top of that, stoppages have nothing to do with how difficult the exercise is. If you disagree, you’ve obviously never known the difference between running wind sprints and running continuously for distance. I played lacrosse, and we ran more than rugby players do. Even so, I wouldn’t want any part of someone who has a full-time strength and conditioning coach regulating their every workout and dietary need. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hines-ward-voted-dirtiest-player-in-the-nfl/516416.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hines-ward-voted-dirtiest-player-in-the-nfl/516416.md?page=8)