# Hip, hip hooray! The pro-war triumphalist thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 9, 2003, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hip-hip-hooray-the-pro-war-triumphalist-thread/167562 "2003-04-09T15:30:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hip-hip-hooray-the-pro-war-triumphalist-thread/167562/81 "2003-04-10T23:44:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Ryan \* > You said that you believed it. I did? Sherman, set the wayback machine: > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by rjung_ > I’m just curious how many of the Iraqis who are condemning Saddam and thanking George W. Bush would do so if the American soldiers (and their guns and bombs) weren’t within earshot. I think it’s pretty obvious to every Iraqi in Baghdad today that anyone who acts anti-American near the U.S. forces, you risk getting arrested or worse. Nope, don’t see anything there that sounds like “I know the only reason the Iraqis are cheering is because the Americans are there.” I remain curious how much of the celebrations is driven by basic appease-the-new-boss syndrone, and the first sentence says as such. And the second sentence seems rather obvious to me – if you were in Baghdad now, and you said/did something anti-American in the presence of one of the soldiers there, you _risk_ getting a negative reaction – maybe a threatening request to leave, or arrested as a possible Fedayeen footsoldier, or Primus-knows-what. But who knows? Maybe you’re one of them psychic X-Men mutants, and you know my thoughts better than I do. Better not stand in line next to you at the movies, then. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hip-hip-hooray-the-pro-war-triumphalist-thread/167562/82 "2003-04-11T02:01:09Z")
rjung, do you speak the same language I do? You just quoted yourself saying, > [@](#): > > I think it’s pretty obvious to every Iraqi in Baghdad today that anyone who acts anti-American near the U.S. forces, you risk getting arrested or worse. And then immediately claimed that this is just a statement of your curiousity about what Iraqis might believe. I don’t think anyone with even a rudimentary understanding of the English language would see your statement as anything other than a declaration of what you believe. Maybe you should consider a job as an ‘information minister’ somewhere in the middle east. You’ve got a talent for blatantly claiming that X does not equal X. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hip-hip-hooray-the-pro-war-triumphalist-thread/167562/83 "2003-04-11T02:06:43Z")
Nah. He’s just pointing out the obvious fact that when your streets are full of heavily armed foreigners, your reactions are likely to be, shall we say, less than spontaneous. ---
**Author:** ![Rockford](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ac8455/32.png) [@Rockford](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rockford)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hip-hip-hooray-the-pro-war-triumphalist-thread/167562/84 "2003-04-11T05:53:04Z")
\*\* > [@](#): > > cite? This is such an obvious assertion, my request for a cite is not a general inuendo. What is the lie exactly? \*\* This whole war, which is justified by the supposed existence of weapons of mass destruction which have yet to be found… except for, IIRC, one missile and some chemical traces (i.e. common pesticides.) The Bush administration are all liars and so are a lot of war supporters. ---
**Author:** ![Rockford](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ac8455/32.png) [@Rockford](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rockford)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hip-hip-hooray-the-pro-war-triumphalist-thread/167562/85 "2003-04-11T05:55:58Z")
\*\* > [@](#): > > Sam Stone– > Maybe you should consider a job as an ‘information minister’ somewhere in the middle east. You’ve got a talent for blatantly claiming that X does not equal X. \*\* Just like all war opponents support Saddam Hussein, right? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Spite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/76d3ee/32.png) [@Spite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spite)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hip-hip-hooray-the-pro-war-triumphalist-thread/167562/86 "2003-04-11T06:03:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rockford \* > > * * * > > \*\* > > This whole war, which is justified by the supposed existence of weapons of mass destruction which have yet to be found… except for, IIRC, one missile and some chemical traces (i.e. common pesticides.) The Bush administration are all liars and so are a lot of war supporters. \*\* Ah, your cite for “the lie” is hyperbolic rhetoric? Over 100 missiles were found. The UN inspectors confirmed that Iraq had not done what the resolution required they do. The war is not a lie, it is really happening. So I cannot see how the war, itself, is a lie. And once they do come out with the hidden WMD, then the admin and some supporters would still be lying? I don’t get it. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hip-hip-hooray-the-pro-war-triumphalist-thread/167562/87 "2003-04-11T22:41:22Z")
McDuff: I think that referring to things with the same term means that they’re equal. rjung: okay, you said “I think”, not “I believe”. Potayto patahto. And yes, everyone who acts anti-American risks getting arested or worse in the sense that every man is a potential rapist. But most people aren’t going to think that’s what you mean. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hip-hip-hooray-the-pro-war-triumphalist-thread/167562/88 "2003-04-11T23:47:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Ryan \* > rjung: okay, you said “I think”, not “I believe”. Potayto patahto. And yes, everyone who acts anti-American risks getting arested or worse in the sense that every man is a potential rapist. But most people aren’t going to think that’s what you mean. Then they need remedial courses in reading comprehension. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![ElJeffe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/958977/32.png) [@ElJeffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElJeffe)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2003, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hip-hip-hooray-the-pro-war-triumphalist-thread/167562/89 "2003-04-12T00:10:15Z")
> [@](#): > > No, you’re not. As much as I might like this world to be the sort of place where you would be a sick bastard for playing the numbers, you’re not, and I apologise. I can’t play the numbers. To me, a life is a life, and I can’t really count any higher than one. It’s my fault, not yours. Yesterday was just a bad day for anyone to start a thread for the sole purpose of pointing out how much I didn’t care about the welfare of the people in Iraq, is all. Eh, nobody needs to apologize. The world can be a pretty screwed-up place. I find myself rooting for war, in spite of how awful war is, because I think that something evil and horrific is required to eradicate something even more evil and horrific. It’s like hoping for a barracuda to chew off your arm to save you from the fact that your hand is stuck in a rapidly sinking ship, only multiplied by a Fucked-Up Factor of roughly 10,000. Sometimes, it seems the only way to get your emotional side to shut up and let your practical side do what needs doing is to view the world as a giant game of Civ II. (“Citizens demand removal of the evil despot!”) That emotional detachment can come in handy, as long as you know when to shut it off. Right or wrong, the vast majority of the people here - or anywhere - just want the world to be a better place. We may disagree on the road, but I think we’re pretty much in agreement on the destination. Jeff ---
**Author:** ![McDuff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@McDuff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/McDuff)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2003, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hip-hip-hooray-the-pro-war-triumphalist-thread/167562/90 "2003-04-12T00:31:03Z")
**The Ryan** > [@](#): > > McDuff: I think that referring to things with the same term means that they’re equal. So when people refer to a destroyed historical artifact and a dead child with the term “collateral damage,” that makes them equal? Please tell me I’m misunderstanding you here. That’s the whole reason I dislike using the term to describe civillian casualties. They aren’t equal, no matter what terms you use. **ElJeffe** , cheers for understanding man. _offers hand_ ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hip-hip-hooray-the-pro-war-triumphalist-thread/167562/91 "2003-04-15T05:22:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElJeffe \* > Sometimes, it seems the only way to get your emotional side to shut up and let your practical side do what needs doing is to view the world as a giant game of Civ II. (“Citizens demand removal of the evil despot!”) Control of the UN allowed the Senate to declare a “peacekeeping” action, but control of the Eiffel Tower shifted world opinion towards the French. Some of the cities have been taken by military force, but Bush is trying to Incite Revolt in others. McDuff: > [@](#): > > So when people refer to a destroyed historical artifact and a dead child with the term “collateral damage,” that makes them equal? Oops! I forgot a “not”. Using the same term does not equate things. ---
**Author:** ![Abe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f1d935/32.png) [@Abe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abe)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hip-hip-hooray-the-pro-war-triumphalist-thread/167562/92 "2003-04-15T11:39:23Z")
Well, it’s nice to see a crop of anti-reason and anti-evidence propaganda babies come out to play, circle-jerking in such ignorance-cum-joy and misrepresenting arguments and positions. You guys need to catch up on the discussions of the last couple months. Once you’ve educated yourselves, come back and we’ll talk. Or feel free to continue any of the many threads that address the issues mentioned here. Most of the threads contain rather more intelligence and knowledge than you have exhibited so far, so I can only recommend them if you are serious about learning something. [A question for protestors and others against the war](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=174833) [War with Iraq - a “just” war?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=170646) [Speculation II: When Iraqi WMD are found, how will war opponents explain them away?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=174746) Similar questions in this thread [Will the war unleash more Terrorism, or will it decrease it?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=173848) [Tony Blair’s Speech to His Parliament](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=170882) – discussion bridging the start of the attack, covers a few important issues concerning this war ESPECIALLY IMPORTANT for people under the illusion that Hans Blix, Unmovic, etc., came to a “damning” conclusion over weapons inspections [Lounsbury on Iraq & MENA: War, Politics, Economy & Related Questions](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=172697) — several pages of informed answers by someone who actually knows about the region and has lived in it for years There are more threads, many more, but I am sick of doing the work the supposedly enlightened yet on occasion ridiculously infantile readers of these boards should be doing themselves. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2003, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hip-hip-hooray-the-pro-war-triumphalist-thread/167562/93 "2003-04-17T17:53:56Z")
Well, gee whiz. Nothing raises the tone of a debate like an insulting post about how one has provided oh-so-much-better commentary on an issue, and does not deign to converse with such lowly creatures as the inhabitants of the current thread but will instead provide links to examples for us to gaze upon in wonder. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Abe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f1d935/32.png) [@Abe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abe)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2003, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hip-hip-hooray-the-pro-war-triumphalist-thread/167562/94 "2003-04-20T05:01:46Z")
Nothing lowers a discussion more than misplaced triumphalism/jingoism/nationalism substituting for valid points, and leading to entirely unsupported conclusions. Base, equally unsupported whining when referred to a better level of information and debate is really not going to do much for the discussion either. Unless of course you enjoy circle-jerking, back-patting, self-congratulatory sessions that don’t have a basis in fact. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hip-hip-hooray-the-pro-war-triumphalist-thread/167562/95 "2003-04-24T21:20:04Z")
Surely you’re aware that one of the rules of this board is “don’t be a jerk”; “don’t be jingoistic” is not. While jingioism threatens a thread, it is failure to respond to it reasonably and politely that dooms it. Rudeness and condescension simply reinforce the perception that some people have that those who oppose American policy aren’t worth listening to. ---
**Author:** ![Abe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f1d935/32.png) [@Abe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abe)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2003, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hip-hip-hooray-the-pro-war-triumphalist-thread/167562/96 "2003-04-25T04:12:12Z")
Well in that case read the discussions linked and ignore my attitude if you don’t like it. I’m not spouting bullshit pronouncements such as others in this thread have been, I provided links to a significant volume of factual information and elaborate arguments that ought to correct some of the warped statements expressed here (and elsewhere). Being a jerk is obstinately presenting a falsehood as true and refusing reason or evidence to the contrary. If the people concerned can’t handle the fact that their jerkness is being met head on, they can take it to the bleeding Pit. However, you seem to be the only one coming back and posting objections in the last 10 days. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hip-hip-hooray-the-pro-war-triumphalist-thread/167562.md?page=4)