# Hip-hop SUCKS **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 21, 2006, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hip-hop-sucks/369594 "2006-08-21T14:52:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2006, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hip-hop-sucks/369594/101 "2006-08-22T02:08:24Z")
[QUOTE=MelCthefirst] Other than the production aspects of hip hop - ie using sound equipment and mixing music, would someone please tell me where the skill and talent is? [/QUOTE] The rhythmical phrasing of the spoken beats. The wordplay. If you ever want to convince yourself of the rhythmical complexity of hip-hop, sit down and transcribe some rhythms for yourself. I’m not talking about the back-beat, I’m talking about what goes on in front of it. It certainly takes skill and talent to convincingly rap. I sure as hell can’t do it. Can you? You may think so, but I’m sure a hip-hop listening audience will easily pick you out as the tyro. As for DJs and talents–there’s a lot of ham-fisted mediocre DJs out there, but go see a guy like, say, Kid Koala and then tell me there’s no talent involved in doing what he does. There’s plenty of stuff on YouTube if you want to check him out. ---
**Author:** ![MelCthefirst](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eada6e/32.png) [@MelCthefirst](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MelCthefirst)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2006, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hip-hop-sucks/369594/102 "2006-08-22T02:59:14Z")
[QUOTE=pulykamell] The rhythmical phrasing of the spoken beats. The wordplay. If you ever want to convince yourself of the rhythmical complexity of hip-hop, sit down and transcribe some rhythms for yourself. I’m not talking about the back-beat, I’m talking about what goes on in front of it. It certainly takes skill and talent to convincingly rap. I sure as hell can’t do it. Can you? You may think so, but I’m sure a hip-hop listening audience will easily pick you out as the tyro. As for DJs and talents–there’s a lot of ham-fisted mediocre DJs out there, but go see a guy like, say, Kid Koala and then tell me there’s no talent involved in doing what he does. There’s plenty of stuff on YouTube if you want to check him out. [/QUOTE] So a few are good at rhythmical phrasing - you telling me most are? Not the ones I’ve been listening to. ---
**Author:** ![MelCthefirst](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eada6e/32.png) [@MelCthefirst](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MelCthefirst)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2006, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hip-hop-sucks/369594/103 "2006-08-22T03:05:48Z")
Also, I think I might be able to pick up DJing skills (if I had the time and inclination) in a lot shorter time than learning to play a musical instrument or developing a singing voice to a high standard. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2006, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hip-hop-sucks/369594/104 "2006-08-22T03:10:44Z")
[QUOTE=pulykamell] As for DJs and talents–there’s a lot of ham-fisted mediocre DJs out there, but go see a guy like, say, Kid Koala and then tell me there’s no talent involved in doing what he does. There’s plenty of stuff on YouTube if you want to check him out. [/QUOTE] I didn’t say the DJs don’t have talent. They do, like carpenters and sound engineers do. [QUOTE=Lama Pacos] > [@](#): > > What is it about hip-hop that makes people incapable of simply saying “I don’t like it”? It starts with “r” and rhymes with “lace jism”. I don’t mean to take the thread in an entirely other pitpossible direction, but in my opinion that’s big fuckin’ elephant in this here room. [/QUOTE] That is the problem with these discussions. You can say rock, or jazz or classical music suck all you like, but say hiphop sucks and you’re a racist. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2006, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hip-hop-sucks/369594/105 "2006-08-22T03:17:04Z")
I don’t think he’s saying you’re a racist if you say you hate hip hop - I think he’s saying that people don’t want to say they simply don’t like hip hop because they’re afraid of the PC police. ---
**Author:** ![MelCthefirst](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eada6e/32.png) [@MelCthefirst](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MelCthefirst)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2006, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hip-hop-sucks/369594/106 "2006-08-22T03:22:08Z")
[QUOTE=DragonAsh] I don’t think he’s saying you’re a racist if you say you hate hip hop - I think he’s saying that people don’t want to say they simply don’t like hip hop because they’re afraid of the PC police. [/QUOTE] Stand up and be counted if you hate hip hop but are scared to say so because you fear being labled racist! I doubt there are many if any - noone appears to be afraid to say they hate jazz or blues or soul etc, aren’t these are rooted in black music? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2006, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hip-hop-sucks/369594/107 "2006-08-22T03:22:17Z")
[QUOTE=pulykamell] Pearl Jam is not named after spunk. [/QUOTE] Give me a plausible alternative story. No, they are not named after Eddie Vedder’s “Grandma Pearl’s” jam preserves. ---
**Author:** ![Wolfian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7ea924/32.png) [@Wolfian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolfian)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2006, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hip-hop-sucks/369594/108 "2006-08-22T03:47:39Z")
[QUOTE=Fred D] Seeing as how Coolio’s biggest radio hit was “Gangster’s Paradise,” I think it’s safe to say that gangster rap is a large portion of hip-hop. [/QUOTE] This was way back on page 1, but it needs to be commented on. 1. Coolio? Fucking Coolio? Who gave Ted Stevens the tube address for the SDMB? 2. No, really–Coolio? I don’t think I’d heard anyone mention Coolio since middle school. Did you just come from a roller rink or something? Are you going to hit us with some Soul 4 Real next? 3. Since its’ apparently throwback day: Hi Opal! 4. You think Gangster’s Paradise fits in the typical guns and 'hos pattern? Have you ever listened to the song? First lyrics: _As I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I take a look at my life and realize there’s nothing left, ‘cause I’ve been laughin’ and blastin’ so long even my momma thinks that my mind is gone._ Its’ not a happy song. The narrator is trying to turn people from the “gangsta” path. > [@MelCthefirst](#): > > So a few are good at rhythmical phrasing - you telling me most are? Not the ones I’ve been listening to. As was mentioned earlier 90% of everything is crap. People have thrown out artists that are good, but you choose to wallow in crap. Your loss. I admire anyone who can put together lyrics that scan well and rhyme, even if I don’t always enjoy the content. > [@](#): > > Also, I think I might be able to pick up DJing skills (if I had the time and inclination) in a lot shorter time than learning to play a musical instrument or developing a singing voice to a high standard. Yeah, good luck with that. And I’ll be replacing James Morris is the Wotan for the modern age. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2006, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hip-hop-sucks/369594/109 "2006-08-22T04:50:31Z")
[QUOTE=saoirse] I didn’t say the DJs don’t have talent. They do, like carpenters and sound engineers do. [/QUOTE] Is collage art? I say it is, if it’s done beautifully and well. A new piece of art is created. You don’t have to agree, but that doesn’t make me wrong. What about the rapper? Any regard for the lyrics and delivery? Frank Sinatra didn’t write his own lyrics or play any instruments, but no one is saying he’s not a musician, are they? Seriously, folks. Give it a rest. ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2006, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hip-hop-sucks/369594/110 "2006-08-22T04:57:20Z")
Many, if not all of you, will find this post to be elitist. And if you consider opposition to lowest common denominator culture – the “mass man” that Ortega y Gasset warned us about decades ago and Nietzsche warned us about even earlier – to be elitist, then this post most definitely _is_ elitist and I’m not in the least ashamed of this. You see, you have to judge rap/hip-hop not against the low standards of most post-millennial rock (as some have done here), but instead _all_ Western music has to be compared against the highest standard Western culture has ever produced: what we call Classical Music. The standard set by Bach, Beethoven, and Mozart centuries ago. And against that standard, rap/hip-hop does indeed suck, and suck hard (to employ the vernacular). By that I mean that, though it has _some_ musical value, it has an abysmally low level of it. Lower than anything else out there of which I’m aware. There is no real musical or compositional effort put into it; it has no grounding theory; no valuable set of aesthetics; it places almost no value in melody or harmony; it has almost zero respect for its audience, etc., etc. Note that this is most emphatically **NOT** a question of taste or of liking or not liking rap/hip-hop. For example, I don’t like traditional, free-form jazz, but there’s no denying that it has enormous musical value and represents a huge musical gift from our African-American heritage. I’m saying nothing new when I point out that African-Americans are far and away the greatest contributors to our musical heritage, from gospel to soul to blues to jazz to r&b to rock, no one has exceeded African-Americans in their enormous contributions to great, awe-inspiring American music. That is, until African-Americans started producing rap/hip-hop with Caucasians following. Then the hideously ugly mass-man reared its repugnant head and started spewing stagnant, hate-fueled vomit at us. (Well, maybe that’s a _little_ strong… 😉 ) Seriously, though, only the truly desperate and those unaware of musical history and musical aesthetics can force their mouths or typing fingers to claim that rap/hip-hop has more than extremely low musical value. It appeals to the mass-man, yes, but so do penis and fart jokes. In my experience, usually the more popular something is the less merit and value it has. The mass-man, as we were warned would happen, has trumped value and aesthetics and most things good and noble about humanity. What better proof than that rap/hip-hop is so popular, even far outside the African-American community? These listeners don’t _want_ music, they want mindless noise with a beat. Music is far too complex and sophisticated for them and they don’t want any part of it. Now this has nothing to do with “cultural relativism”. The racist claim that rap/hip-hop has high musical value to African-American culture can only mean that African-American culture is largely incapable of making aesthetic judgements, and I refuse to believe that. Musical value judgements are inter-subjective; they don’t change from culture to culture. For example, the native African music mentioned above is truly great music _regardless_ of one’s culture of origin. Like jazz and other African-American inspired music other than rap/hip-hop, it compares quite well with the Western gold standard of Western classical music and also with Eastern musical gold standards. While rap/hip-hop is essentially irredeemable shit on a plate when evaluated with musical theory and musical aesthetics in mind. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2006, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hip-hop-sucks/369594/111 "2006-08-22T05:13:11Z")
[QUOTE=ambushed] While rap/hip-hop is essentially irredeemable shit on a plate when evaluated with musical theory and musical aesthetics in mind. [/QUOTE] Let me summarize the preceding post: I don’t like hip-hop, and I’m going to use lots of big words and pseudointellectual bullshit to say so! If you disagree with me, you’re just part of the lowest common denominator. Hee hee, I’m an elitist. That’s my way of padding out my opinions by painting myself as an oppressed rebel! ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2006, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hip-hop-sucks/369594/112 "2006-08-22T05:13:52Z")
[QUOTE=Asimovian] The idea that the music can’t stand on its own is pretty silly to me. It’s the repeated playing of the rappers’ music over the radio and in CD players and iPods that drives people to their concerts to begin with. Some artists like fireworks and dry ice and crowd surfing during their shows; others like attractive, scantily dressed dancers. **In either case, if the music sucked, people wouldn’t come to the shows.** (emphasis mine) [/QUOTE] That has got to be one of the least credible and/or valuable assertions I’ve encountered in this thread. People go to see what is popular, by definition. But as I remarked above, what is popular is usually shit because the dull-witted, unenlightened majority has terrible taste and tends to not even _want_ music in the first place since it challenges them too much. ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2006, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hip-hop-sucks/369594/113 "2006-08-22T05:15:27Z")
[QUOTE=Excalibre] Let me summarize the preceding post: I don’t like hip-hop, and I’m going to use lots of big words and pseudointellectual bullshit to say so! If you disagree with me, you’re just part of the lowest common denominator. Hee hee, I’m an elitist. That’s my way of padding out my opinions by painting myself as an oppressed rebel! [/QUOTE] I see you have nothing of any worth or merit to say, and even then you said it poorly. But you said it! Aren’t you proud of yourself? ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2006, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hip-hop-sucks/369594/114 "2006-08-22T05:16:05Z")
Well, a lot of it sounds like a rather pissed-off drunk rolling down a rocky hill trapped in a steel garbage can and cussing every time it hits a bump. But I wouldn’t go so far as to say it’s worse than disco or even the rest ofr contemporary top 40 or anything. There is music such that the lack of musical pitch in rap constitutes a marked improvement… ---
**Author:** ![Wolfian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7ea924/32.png) [@Wolfian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolfian)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2006, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hip-hop-sucks/369594/115 "2006-08-22T05:22:24Z")
[QUOTE=ambushed] Many, if not all of you, will find this post to be elitist. And if you consider opposition to lowest common denominator culture – the “mass man” that Ortega y Gasset warned us about decades ago and Nietzsche warned us about even earlier – to be elitist, then this post most definitely _is_ elitist and I’m not in the least ashamed of this. \ [/QUOTE] You see folks, anyone with a tongue and a working Broca’s area can jumble words together as **ambushed** demonstrated, but it takes an artist to make them into poetry. > [@](#): > > There is no real musical or compositional effort put into it; it has no grounding theory; no valuable set of aesthetics; it places almost no value in melody or harmony; it has almost zero respect for its audience, etc., etc. Not a fan of drum solos I take it. Someone wiser and more versed in music theory than I will be along to straighten you out, unless they are weary of this argument or didn’t feel like trudging though your post (it was painful), but let me just say, yes, your post came across “elitist.” It also came across “long-winded” and “poorly-informed.” On preview, thanks **excalibre**. BTW, only Mozart was a “Classical” composer. Bach was Baroque and Beethoven was Romantic. Pet peev of mine. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2006, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hip-hop-sucks/369594/116 "2006-08-22T05:25:25Z")
[QUOTE=ambushed] I see you have nothing of any worth or merit to say, and even then you said it poorly. But you said it! Aren’t you proud of yourself? [/QUOTE] Aww, did I hurt your feelings? ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2006, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hip-hop-sucks/369594/117 "2006-08-22T05:34:40Z")
[QUOTE=MelCthefirst] So a few are good at rhythmical phrasing - you telling me most are? Not the ones I’ve been listening to. [/QUOTE] You need to check out the movie _8 Mile_. It probably took the dude from Bread like 4 months to come up with “baby I’m a want you/baby I’m a need you” while the most talented rappers can spit an incredible, rhyme out right on the spot, about anything. I used to be a “rock snob” and am a really huge Pearl Jam fan - was into the whole “alternative” thing. Then “alternative” turned into Creed and I gave up on rock and switched over to hear what was going on elsewhere in popular music. I still love and admire and swear by Pearl Jam, and The Beatles and all sorts of “important” rock but I am constantly amazed by what I hear in hip-hop, and I even listen to top-40 stuff. You can’t listen to something like _Hello Nasty_ and not say that the producers, scratchers and rappers aren’t amazingly talented. Or any of Missy Elliot’s stuff, or Q Tip, or Busta Rhymes, or Eminem…and most folks would call them pop hip hop. I haven’t even scratched the surface of what hardcore fans would call “good” hip hop. And by the way, **DragonAsh** …311? RATM? RHCP? All influenced by hip hop, dontchaknow. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2006, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hip-hop-sucks/369594/118 "2006-08-22T05:36:16Z")
[QUOTE=Wolfian] BTW, only Mozart was a “Classical” composer. Bach was Baroque and Beethoven was Romantic. Pet peev of mine. [/QUOTE] Beethoven was Classical. ---
**Author:** ![vinniepaz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b4bc9f/32.png) [@vinniepaz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vinniepaz)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2006, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hip-hop-sucks/369594/119 "2006-08-22T05:53:42Z")
[QUOTE=elmwood] Bullshit. Yes, poverty life in the ghetto has always been a theme in African-American music. However, only in hip-hop has it become the **dominant** theme, and only in hip-hop has it been glorified so much. If the “gangsta rap is just a reflection of the ghetto” meme was true, then the ghetto must be a recent incention, because the theme was selcom part of scat, early rock, R&B, Motown, disco, and early rap. Yeah, blues singlers cried about losing their woman, losing their jobs, and their broken mojos, but the theme was more like “this shit sucks” - it definitely did not glorify it, nor did masses of black kids in the 1920s and 1930s stream to Tunica or Clarksdale to live the good life as sharecroppers in shotgun shacks. I’m sure someone will come along and point out some Motown song that mentions bitches, hos, blunts, semi-automatic pistols, malt liquor, and the desire to kill law enforcement officers and white people in general. How much of that, though, made up the genre? Probably very, very, very little. [/QUOTE] Poverty and life in the ghetto is in no way the dominant theme of hip-hop music, and especially not the glorification thereof. Most of what is widely considered “gangster rap” is an exaggerated view of the lives of people who have risen out of the ghetto. You think there is blingin’ and hoes in the ghetto? Sure, there’s a good amount of hip-hop that glorifies ghetto life, but it’s far from the dominant theme, and that’s still not a reason to brand it unworthy. Sometimes music doesn’t have to be taken so seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2006, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hip-hop-sucks/369594/120 "2006-08-22T05:55:51Z")
[QUOTE=ambushed] Many, if not all of you, will find this post to be elitist. And if you consider opposition to lowest common denominator culture – the “mass man” that Ortega y Gasset warned us about decades ago and Nietzsche warned us about even earlier – to be elitist, then this post most definitely _is_ elitist and I’m not in the least ashamed of this. [/quote] Oh, great. Nietzche. Always a sure sign of a mature intellect. I’ll bet you’re an Ayn Rand fan, too, aren’t you? > [@](#): > > You see, you have to judge rap/hip-hop not against the low standards of most post-millennial rock (as some have done here), but instead _all_ Western music has to be compared against the highest standard Western culture has ever produced: what we call Classical Music. The standard set by Bach, Beethoven, and Mozart centuries ago. And against that standard, rap/hip-hop does indeed suck, and suck hard (to employ the vernacular). Sure, that’s a fair standard. Let’s take all of contemporary music, top to bottom, from a span of no more than twenty years, and compare then to a double handful of the very best and most talented over a course of _centuries_. You want to stack the deck any higher there, chief? > [@](#): > > By that I mean that, though it has _some_ musical value, it has an abysmally low level of it. Lower than anything else out there of which I’m aware. Which specific rap/hip hop groups have you listened to, in order to make this determination? > [@](#): > > There is no real musical or compositional effort put into it… Bullshit. > [@](#): > > …it has no grounding theory… Cite? > [@](#): > > …no valuable set of aesthetics… Utterly arbitrary. It has a definite set of aesthetics that is valued by those who are partial to the genre. > [@](#): > > …it places almost no value in melody or harmony… And? > [@](#): > > …it has almost zero respect for its audience, etc., etc. How do you mean, “respect?” > [@](#): > > Note that this is most emphatically **NOT** a question of taste or of liking or not liking rap/hip-hop. More bullshit. > [@](#): > > For example, I don’t like traditional, free-form jazz, but there’s no denying that it has enormous musical value and represents a huge musical gift from our African-American heritage. I’m saying nothing new when I point out that African-Americans are far and away the greatest contributors to our musical heritage, from gospel to soul to blues to jazz to r&b to rock, no one has exceeded African-Americans in their enormous contributions to great, awe-inspiring American music. Yeah, yeah, you love black people. Whatever. > [@](#): > > That is, until African-Americans started producing rap/hip-hop with Caucasians following. Then the hideously ugly mass-man reared its repugnant head and started spewing stagnant, hate-fueled vomit at us. (Well, maybe that’s a _little_ strong… 😉 ) Seriously, though, only the truly desperate and those unaware of musical history and musical aesthetics can force their mouths or typing fingers to claim that rap/hip-hop has more than extremely low musical value. “Everyone who disagrees with me is stoopid.” The Nietzche reference was a give-away. How old are you for real? Fifteen? > [@](#): > > It appeals to the mass-man, yes, but so do penis and fart jokes. Oh, come off it. Penis and fart jokes appeal to everyone. > [@](#): > > In my experience, usually the more popular something is the less merit and value it has. The mass-man, as we were warned would happen, has trumped value and aesthetics and most things good and noble about humanity. Maybe it’s just me, but when I read this post, I kept hearing Lenny Bruce say, “Thank you mass-man!” > [@](#): > > What better proof than that rap/hip-hop is so popular, even far outside the African-American community? These listeners don’t _want_ music, they want mindless noise with a beat. Music is far too complex and sophisticated for them and they don’t want any part of it. “The more people disagree with me, the more right I am!” Quick! Everyone agree with **ambushed**! His argument will fall to pieces! > [@](#): > > Now this has nothing to do with “cultural relativism”. The racist claim that rap/hip-hop has high musical value to African-American culture can only mean that African-American culture is largely incapable of making aesthetic judgements, and I refuse to believe that. Musical value judgements are inter-subjective; they don’t change from culture to culture. I’d like a cite for that, too. > [@](#): > > For example, the native African music mentioned above is truly great music _regardless_ of one’s culture of origin. Like jazz and other African-American inspired music other than rap/hip-hop, it compares quite well with the Western gold standard of Western classical music and also with Eastern musical gold standards. Very nice. That didn’t come across as the least bit patronizing. > [@](#): > > While rap/hip-hop is essentially irredeemable shit on a plate when evaluated with musical theory and musical aesthetics in mind. Yeah, well, that’s just, like, your _opinion_, man! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hip-hop-sucks/369594.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hip-hop-sucks/369594.md?page=7)