# His4Ever and Les Miz (Theology through musical theatre) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 24, 2002, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-and-les-miz-theology-through-musical-theatre/138427 "2002-11-24T01:31:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2002, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-and-les-miz-theology-through-musical-theatre/138427/1 "2002-11-24T01:31:07Z")
**His4Ever** has weighed in, yet again, on the gay question in this [thread:](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=145776&pagenumber=2) > [@](#): > > And as many have asked me, I’ll ask you: what makes you think your interpetation of the Bible is any more valid than mine? I’m praying for you and don’t have the animosity toward you that you appear to have for me. Her Scriptural exegesis reminded me of Inspector Javert’s rigidity in the Boublil-Schoenberg musical version of Victor Hugo’s _Les Miserables_. Javert is a police inspector who spends years of his life chasing the fugitive Jean Valjean. Javert is a legalist, a man who measures the worth of other’s by their adherence to the law; mercy, redemption, and forgiveness are alien to his nature: > [@](#): > > There, out in the darkness > A fugitive running > Fallen from grace > Fallen from grace > God be my witness > I never shall yield > Till we come face to face > Till we come face to face > > He knows his way in the dark > Mine is the way of the Lord > And those who follow the path of the righteous > Shall have their reward > And if they fall > As Lucifer fell > The flame > The sword! At the climax of Les Miz, Valjean saves Javert form death at the hands of revolutionaries. Javeert cannot accept that a man he despises could save him–it’s an ooutrageous contradiction of his entire moral code, and so, rather than accept grace, he commits suicide > [@](#): > > Damned if I’ll live in the debt of a thief! > Damned if I’ll yield at the end of the chase. > I am the Law and the Law is not mocked > I’ll spit his pity right back in his face > There is nothing on earth that we share > It is either Valjean or Javert! In her eagerness to preach the Word, **H4e** emphasizes the Law, yet she scants the redemptive love of God as evidenced through His sacrifice of His son upon Calvary. Now I know I am an evil, Hell-bound sinner because H4E tells me so (being in a monogamous homosexual realtionship makes me a wicked creature indeed), yet, even to my flawed brain it seems that the message og the New Testament is that all can reach the love of God and the duty ofd the Christian is not to tear down or to judge, but to love. Sure, **h4E** beleives that being gay is wrong, but shouldn’t her duty be to boldface the bits about God’s caring for all His creation, rather than her hammering home condemnation? Jesus didn’t condemn sinners, but Pharisees. Granted, in her view, I and my fellow gay Dopers are unrepentant sinners, but should not her response be to show the all-encompassing love of the Almightty, instead of hate? Would **h4e** have lunch with a sinner, or would she sneer and say, “Thank you, Oh Lord God, King of the Universe, that you made me as I am , and not a lowly creature such as Gobear”? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2002, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-and-les-miz-theology-through-musical-theatre/138427/2 "2002-11-24T01:40:47Z")
gobear: > [@](#): > > At the climax of Les Miz, Valjean saves Javert form death at the hands of revolutionaries. Javeert cannot accept that a man he despises could save him–it’s an ooutrageous contradiction of his entire moral code, and so, rather than accept grace, he commits suicide\*\* That’s just like the end of **The Animal** starring Rob Schneider. This guy despises Rob Schneider because he has transplanted animal parts in him that make him part animal, so he hunts him just like Javert hants Valjean. He Falls off a cliff though and is dangling by a branch. Rob Schneider uses his transplanted monkey skills to save his nemesis. Just like javert, the hunter is at a loss. It’s amazing how great art has so much in common. [sub]just in case your example was too cerebral[/sub] 😉 ---
**Author:** ![TV\_time](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f17d59/32.png) [@TV\_time](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TV_time)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2002, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-and-les-miz-theology-through-musical-theatre/138427/3 "2002-11-24T01:55:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla, \* > **That’s just like the end of The Animal starring Rob Schneider.** **Scylla** you may well have set back cinematic allusions five or six decades.😃 ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2002, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-and-les-miz-theology-through-musical-theatre/138427/4 "2002-11-24T02:16:31Z")
In the beginning of Les Mix, Valjean, after bewing given his ticket of leave, is refused work by the righteous citizens of the parish. The bishop of Digne takes Valjean in. Valjean rewards his genrosity by stealing two sivler candelabra. Whem soldiers bring Valjean back and urge the bishop to denounce Valjean, instrad the bishop says that Valjean took the cnale sticks with his blessing. Then, when the soldiers have gone, the bishop says that he has bought Valjean’s life, and tha tit is up to Valjean to redeem himself. In a soliloquy, Valjean sings: > [@](#): > > Yet why did I allow that man > To touch my soul and teach me love? > He treated me like any other > He gave me his trust > He called me brother > My life he claims for God above > Can such things be? > For I had come to hate the world > This world that always hated me > > Take an eye for an eye! > Turn your heart into stone! > This is all I have lived for! > This is all I have known! > > One word from him and I’d be back > Beneath the lash, upon the rack > Instead he offers me my freedom > I feel my shame inside me like a knife > He told me that I have a soul, > How does he know? > What spirit comes to move my life? > Is there another way to go? Would **H4E** do that? Does she believe Jesus did that for me, or only for her and the “good” people? Caveat: Please forgive the typos. You’d be amazed how much a couple of glasses of Cheval Blanc champagne can impair one’s editorial abilities. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2002, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-and-les-miz-theology-through-musical-theatre/138427/5 "2002-11-24T02:19:44Z")
Or as The Fool says in _King Lear_, “Use every man after his desert, and who shall scape whipping?” Does H4E believe her sins to be venial and mine mortal? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2002, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-and-les-miz-theology-through-musical-theatre/138427/6 "2002-11-24T02:20:18Z")
Just a hijack to say that I saw Colm Wilkinson sing those lines on Broadway when the show was new - and he was absolutely extraordinary. Sorry - back to the excellent point raised here. - Rick ---
**Author:** ![Jurhael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cab0a1/32.png) [@Jurhael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jurhael)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2002, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-and-les-miz-theology-through-musical-theatre/138427/7 "2002-11-24T02:38:57Z")
“Javeert cannot accept that a man he despises could save him–it’s an ooutrageous contradiction of his entire moral code, and so, rather than accept grace, he commits suicide” I have GOT to read Les Miserables… I figure if I liked The Hunchback of Notre Dame, I will LOVE this! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![cuauhtemoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecb155/32.png) [@cuauhtemoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cuauhtemoc)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2002, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-and-les-miz-theology-through-musical-theatre/138427/8 "2002-11-24T02:46:50Z")
So are you asking her to have lunch with you? Is that what this is about? You want to meet **His4ever** at Ruby Tuesday’s for appetizers? Just ask her already! The worst she could say is “no”. It’s now or never, **gobear**. If you don’t make your move, you’ll always be wondering what might have been.😃 ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2002, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-and-les-miz-theology-through-musical-theatre/138427/9 "2002-11-24T02:49:58Z")
Hey, **H4E** has a standing invite to come to DcCand I’ll happily buy her dinner. Heck, I’ll even throw in a backrub (I give a _wicked_ backrub) Who knows, we could even get into a Sondheim singalong. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2002, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-and-les-miz-theology-through-musical-theatre/138427/10 "2002-11-24T03:00:51Z")
The thing that **H4E** cannot comprehend is that art, music, and beauty are sustaining to the spirit in ways that the dead, grey cast of Biblical legal strictures cannot match. How can **H4E** ’s petty, childish view of Scripture compare to the rapture of Haydn’s _Creation_ or Bach’s _St. Matthew’s Passion_, or the great Amen from Handel’s _Judas Maccabeus_, which sends me into an almost out of body experience? Or as Stephen Sondheim so wisely wrote (from _Into The Woos_) > [@](#): > > Just remember . . . > > Someone is on your side. > Someone else is not. > While you’re seeing your side > maybe you forgot: > They are not alone. > No one is alone. > > Hard to see the light now > just don’t let it go. > Things will come out right now > we can make it so. > Someone is on your side > No one is alone No one is alone–do you believe that, **H4E**? ---
**Author:** ![Kirkland1244](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kirkland1244](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kirkland1244)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2002, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-and-les-miz-theology-through-musical-theatre/138427/11 "2002-11-24T03:03:43Z")
Wow, that Le Miz thing sounds exactly like that episode of Deep Space Nine where Sisko hunts Eddington, who keeps calling Sisko “Javert,” and then dies at the end. Oh wait, I guess it kinda falls apart at that point. Oh well. Sisko had a 7-year contract. Eddington didn’t. Thems the breaks. Kirk ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2002, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-and-les-miz-theology-through-musical-theatre/138427/12 "2002-11-24T03:09:33Z")
**Kirk** , my darling, any gay man worth his lube should know his Baroque oratorios. ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2002, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-and-les-miz-theology-through-musical-theatre/138427/13 "2002-11-24T03:12:11Z")
Well, this sucks. **Scylla’s** completely ruined **The Animal** for me know. For the love of all that is holy, you shoulda used a spoiler tag. ---
**Author:** ![Kirkland1244](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kirkland1244](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kirkland1244)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2002, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-and-les-miz-theology-through-musical-theatre/138427/14 "2002-11-24T03:13:53Z")
I love Les Mis. \*Do you hear the people sing? Singing the songs of angry men? \* Heh. I practically live by that verse. 🙂 Kirk ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2002, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-and-les-miz-theology-through-musical-theatre/138427/15 "2002-11-24T03:17:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dantheman \* > \*\*Well, this sucks. **Scylla’s** completely ruined **The Animal** for me know. For the love of all that is holy, you shoulda used a spoiler tag. \*\* Trust me on this one: I didn’t ruin it for you. It was ruined long before I got to it. Although gobear giving away major plot points to Les Mis deserves an ass-whooping. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2002, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-and-les-miz-theology-through-musical-theatre/138427/16 "2002-11-24T03:18:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\ ***Kirk** , my darling, any gay man worth his lube should know his Baroque oratorios. \*\* Y’mean I’m not worth my salt? Naaaaaaaah. I’m plenty salty. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2002, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-and-les-miz-theology-through-musical-theatre/138427/17 "2002-11-24T03:19:58Z")
> [@](#): > > Although gobear giving away major plot points to Les Mis deserves an ass-whooping. **Scylla** , sugar, you can whoop my ass any time you please, ya big brute. (_entendre_ fully_double_) ---
**Author:** ![Kirkland1244](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kirkland1244](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kirkland1244)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2002, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-and-les-miz-theology-through-musical-theatre/138427/18 "2002-11-24T03:29:39Z")
Ummm… since Les Mis is like 6000 years old, is it really considerd a “spoiler” to talk about it anymore? If that’s the case, then someone needs to pull all those crucifixes down off of churches, because they keep spoiling the climax of the Gospels! Kirk ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2002, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-and-les-miz-theology-through-musical-theatre/138427/19 "2002-11-24T03:35:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > _ **Scylla** , sugar, you can whoop my ass any time you please, ya big brute. (entendre fullydouble_) \*\* My first gay cyber-flirt! And it only took me three years. ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2002, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-and-les-miz-theology-through-musical-theatre/138427/20 "2002-11-24T03:42:07Z")
Sorry… 😉 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-and-les-miz-theology-through-musical-theatre/138427.md?page=2)