# His4Ever and Les Miz (Theology through musical theatre) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 24, 2002, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-and-les-miz-theology-through-musical-theatre/138427 "2002-11-24T01:31:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2002, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-and-les-miz-theology-through-musical-theatre/138427/21 "2002-11-24T03:49:12Z")
> [@](#): > > Ummm… since Les Mis is like 6000 years old, is it really considerd a “spoiler” to talk about it anymore? Well, actually, it’s 142 years old, but who’s counting? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2002, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-and-les-miz-theology-through-musical-theatre/138427/22 "2002-11-24T03:50:23Z")
**gobear** , I would also include Shubert’s _Ave Maria_, but since that’s Catholic, it’s probably EVIL. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2002, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-and-les-miz-theology-through-musical-theatre/138427/23 "2002-11-24T03:53:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > Or as Stephen Sondheim so wisely wrote (from _Into The Woos_) I’m not familiar with that one. Can anyone help me out? Esprix? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2002, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-and-les-miz-theology-through-musical-theatre/138427/24 "2002-11-24T03:53:30Z")
Oh, puh-LEEZE, sugar, I adore Shubert’s _Ave Maria_ (although I prefer Gounod’s version as sung by Barbra Streisand), but yeah, the Catholic Church is pretty much an evil institution. ---
**Author:** ![Jurhael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cab0a1/32.png) [@Jurhael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jurhael)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2002, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-and-les-miz-theology-through-musical-theatre/138427/25 "2002-11-24T03:54:36Z")
Yea, Les Mis is fairly old and I already knew what had happened to Javert, I just saw it in the movie version though and shocked. I didn’t understand why he did that. But, then again, I only saw the tail end part of the movie. Hehe ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2002, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-and-les-miz-theology-through-musical-theatre/138427/26 "2002-11-24T03:56:20Z")
Well, D’UH! That’s what I said! I mean, we worship Mary and are the Illuminati! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2002, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-and-les-miz-theology-through-musical-theatre/138427/27 "2002-11-24T04:03:45Z")
> [@](#): > > Well, D’UH! That’s what I said! I mean, we worship Mary and are the Illuminati! That’s nonsense. I’m more concerned with the bishops’ indiffference to the sufferning pedophile priests have cause and their conflating gay men wioth child molesters, which frankly makes me really, really, mad. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2002, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-and-les-miz-theology-through-musical-theatre/138427/28 "2002-11-24T04:12:30Z")
**gobear** , that doesn’t make an entire religion evil. FWIW, I do agree with you-although, if you’ll notice, the US Bishops conference is putting in the zero-tolerance guidelines-despite the fact that the Pope disagrees with it. However, since **His4ever** has in the past agreed with Jack Chick on Catholicism, that’s what I meant. ---
**Author:** ![Billy\_Rubin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/billy_rubin/32/3622_2.png) [@Billy\_Rubin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Billy_Rubin)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2002, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-and-les-miz-theology-through-musical-theatre/138427/29 "2002-11-24T04:17:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*That’s nonsense. I’m more concerned with the bishops’ indiffference to the sufferning pedophile priests have cause and their conflating gay men wioth child molesters, which frankly makes me really, really, mad. \*\* Make that clearer then. The “catholic church” consists of it’s membership. A great number of whom are decent humans. Tarring “the Catholic Church” with that bloodstained brush gathers in a lot of decent people. There are evil individuals in the catholic church just as there are evil people in any sociolgical subgroup. Don’t paint the church evil because of a very few of it’s members. b. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2002, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-and-les-miz-theology-through-musical-theatre/138427/30 "2002-11-24T04:33:04Z")
_Do you hear the Dopers post Posting the words of angry rants It’s a posting in the Pit That full of…_…um… :: thinks ::…_angry biting ants_ Hmmm. Perhaps not. Wrong imagery to suggest and, frankly, kinda dumb. Uh… _That’s full of: shirts and pants? great beats, and you can dance? Gilderstern and Rosenkrantz?_ :: hee! 😛 But no. :: \< Daffy Duck voice \> Leth’s…try that again, shall we? \< /Daffy Duck voice \> _Do you hear the Dopers post Posting their angry, hostile words? They are posting in the Pit And beating plowshares into swords_ :: MUCH better! 😃 :: _When the ranting in your post Echoes the anger in your heart You know that you got a classic And not a fart_ :: that’s atrocious. Dumb. Fetid. Try again :: _thread you’ve start_ ed? :: Dear God that’s bad. Doesn’t scan, dumb rhyme _and_ tortured English: The Triple Threat :: :: thinks :: OOOOhhhh! Got it! _When the ranting in your post Echoes the anger in your head You’ll make His4Ever wish She’da stayed in bed_ :: doesn’t scan quite correctly, but they’ll forgive it :: _Will you join in our crusade? Will you flame and have your say At **His4Ever’s** hatred, bigotry and evil way Our anger, united, will make this place seem like Pompeii_ _Do you hear the Dopers post Posting their angry, hostile words? They are posting in the Pit And beating plowshares into swords! When the ranting in your post Echoes the anger in your head You’ll make His4Ever wish She’da stayed in bed_ \*Will you flame and will you mock So that her ideas don’t advance? When you flame, you might get burned Will you stand up and take the chance? \*…um… I already got stuck on an “ance” rhyme. I _hate_ “ance” rhymes. Um… _Whoever the martyr will be It won’t be **Jonathan Chance** _ No. Terrible. Doesn’t rhyme, doesn’t scan and makes no sense. _ **Gobear** and **Scylla** have started a brand-new romance_? No. One or both of 'em might beat me up. Plus it doesn’t tie in and it’s just silly. Fine. Lose the stupid “ance” rhyme. \*Will you flame and will you mock Against her hatred that we see? When you flame, you might get burned Who will be strong and stand with me? That crispy-roast flamed smell Is coming from ol’ H-4-Eeeeeeee \*Do you hear the Dopers post Posting their angry, hostile words? They are posting in the Pit And beating plowshares into swords! When the ranting in your post Echoes the anger in your head You’ll make His4Ever wish She’da stayed in bed She’da stayed in bed!\* Jean Val Fenris ---
**Author:** ![airdisc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e19adc/32.png) [@airdisc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/airdisc)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2002, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-and-les-miz-theology-through-musical-theatre/138427/31 "2002-11-24T04:36:17Z")
$50 says the whoosh of this thread over His4Ever’s head will make a sonic boom. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2002, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-and-les-miz-theology-through-musical-theatre/138427/32 "2002-11-24T04:38:29Z")
> [@](#): > > Don’t paint the church evil because of a very few of it’s members. Uh, the Pope, the College of Cardinals, and the US bishops are not “af ew of its members”–they’re the heads of the organization. Shoot, you might as well call Bill Gates just an employee of Microsoft. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2002, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-and-les-miz-theology-through-musical-theatre/138427/33 "2002-11-24T04:51:09Z")
A different song parody (with respect to Alan Menken/Howard Ashman) [quote] Here she is, folks the leader of the claque! Watch her spout out that gas! Oh, my God! She’s an evangelist and she’ll never ever be any good Who wants their soul cleaned by the Marquis de Sade? Oh that hurts! I’m not numb! [H4E] Oh, shut up. Open wide. here I come! I am your evangelist [CRYSTAL, RONETTE, CHIFFON] Goodness gracious! [H4E] And I enjoy the career that I picked I am your evangelist [CRYSTAL, RONETTE, CHIFFON] Blocking graces! [H4E] And I get off on the pain I inflict When I start posting some trollers You girls will be screaming like holy rollers [CRYSTAL, RONETTE, CHIFFON] Dentist! [H4E] And though it may cause my victims distress Somewhere in heaven above me, I know that my mama’s proud of me 'Cause I’m an evangelist- and a success Say ah! Now spit. ---
**Author:** ![Billy\_Rubin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/billy_rubin/32/3622_2.png) [@Billy\_Rubin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Billy_Rubin)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2002, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-and-les-miz-theology-through-musical-theatre/138427/34 "2002-11-24T16:41:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*Uh, the Pope, the College of Cardinals, and the US bishops are not “af ew of its members”–they’re the heads of the organization. Shoot, you might as well call Bill Gates just an employee of Microsoft. \*\* The Catholic Church consists of it’s members. The pope, the bishops, the priests, as well as the congregation, are members of the body of the church. They are human beings. By definition they are fallible. By definition some will be good and some not so good. Some, maybe, downright evil. Like the whole of human population. You have insulted millions of people. People who are not responsible for their leadership. Catholics do **not** elect a pope. Catholics do **not** elect the bishop of their diocese. Catholics do **not** select their priest. Catholics DO disagree with their leadership. Catholics DO find issue with the rules that are handed to them. And a great number of them, instead of condemning people, are doing things about it. What are you doing, Gobear? Are you apologising for pointing a finger at an entire religeon? for painting the catholics on this board with that broad brush? Because that’s what I’d like to hear. b. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2002, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-and-les-miz-theology-through-musical-theatre/138427/35 "2002-11-24T17:27:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*Or as Stephen Sondheim so wisely wrote (from _Into The Woos_) > > No one is alone–do you believe that, **H4E**? \*\* gobear, I’m interested – what do you think that song is about? Can you put the general moral of that song in to prose for me? (Interested, because I think most people get it wrong.) But if we are comparing the moral message of high art, I don’t think that any work expresses moral redemption better than _Then how the reindeer loved him As they shouted out with glee_ Unless it’s possibly _Lollipop lollipop oh lolli lolli lolli lollipop_ That one always makes me think… ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2002, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-and-les-miz-theology-through-musical-theatre/138427/36 "2002-11-24T18:26:17Z")
> [@](#): > > What are you doing, Gobear? Are you apologising for pointing a finger at an entire religeon? for painting the catholics on this board with that broad brush? Because that’s what I’d like to hear. Hey, I was raised Catholic, went through Confirmation and served as an altarboy, so do NOT presume to lecture me on the Church hierarchy, buster. The Catholic Church is a top-down organization, deny it however you will. The Pope and the Curia set the policies and the beliefs of the Church. They are NOT merely members. If you are a member of an organization that forbids families in Third-world nations from using birth control, shields child molesters while scapegoating their victims, and has strong antigay policies, then you are guilty of complicity. If I were still Catholic, I would have taken the honorable course and left an irredeemably corrupt institution. A Christian’s loyalty should be to God, not to the institution that claims to speak for Him. > [@](#): > > gobear, I’m interested – what do you think that song is about? Can you put the general moral of that song in to prose for me? (Interested, because I think most people get it wrong.) I have a rough idea that it means that no one is alone because teach person has his or her sense of judgement and morals with them. > [@](#): > > Sometimes people leave you > Halfway through the wood. > Others may deceive you > You decide what’s good. > You decide alone, > But no one is alone. Given that the theme of the play is that actions have unintended consequences and that people have to make n adjustment between their dreams and their circumstances, my take on it seems to be congruent, but I could be wrong. I’ll have to think about it some more. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2002, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-and-les-miz-theology-through-musical-theatre/138427/37 "2002-11-24T18:52:28Z")
> [@](#): > > If you are a member of an organization that forbids families in Third-world nations from using birth control, shields child molesters while scapegoating their victims, and has strong antigay policies, then you are guilty of complicity. Here we go again. Perhaps my SPIRITUAL beliefs coinside with that of the Catholic church. What then? Fuck you. ---
**Author:** ![Billy\_Rubin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/billy_rubin/32/3622_2.png) [@Billy\_Rubin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Billy_Rubin)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2002, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-and-les-miz-theology-through-musical-theatre/138427/38 "2002-11-24T19:19:44Z")
> [@](#): > > so do NOT presume to lecture me on the Church hierarchy, buster. Six years in the seminary. I will not only presume, but can provide my qualifications to do so. And never, ever call me buster. Listen: I did not enter this thread to piss in anyone’s cornflakes. I am attempting to empty the piss out of my own. Gobear, by lumping “catholics” with a few individuals who have done wrongheaded things you have pissed in the cornflakes of every catholic on earth, and they just do not deserve it, period. Also: for the record, I am active in my local church, though for personal reasons I am no longer technically a catholic. Does that stop me from helping? does it stop me from contributing? no. Does it stop me from being a useful member of my local society? No. Here’s the deal: One child molesting priest is unacceptible. So is one child molesting cop. One child molesting politician. One child molesting zamboni driver. One child molesting homosexual. One child molesting preacher. One child molesting high school teacher. One child molesting crossing guard. By specifically singling out the Catholic Church with this complete and utter nonsense, you do a couple of things. 1. you place yourself exactly in the category of H4E, and Jack Chick. 2. You portray yourself as a hypocrite; anyone who has faced intolerance should understand that the actions of a few should not condemn the many. 3. You show yourself to be a bigot. Having had discourse with you in the past, I have a feeling that you are none of those things, at least intentionally. I have a suspicion that you are reacting from an emotional level, that you have some problem or have been taught to have some problem with catholics. I’m sorry for you if this is the case. Like zamboni drivers, cops, firemen, chicken sexers, engineers, seventh-day adventists, homosexuals, even plywood manufacturing experts, Catholics are people like everyone else. To label them guilty by association of the actions of people over whom they may exercise no control is wrong. You should be smarter than this. Show us you are. b. ---
**Author:** ![Sterra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8c91f0/32.png) [@Sterra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterra)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2002, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-and-les-miz-theology-through-musical-theatre/138427/39 "2002-11-24T19:20:53Z")
I agree with **Guin**. Living with sinners doesen’t make you a bad person. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2002, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-and-les-miz-theology-through-musical-theatre/138427/40 "2002-11-24T19:37:28Z")
Okay. Those parodies have convinced me. I repent of quoting George Strait in a religious context. _Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa_. * * * But, just to add something serious here, it’s clear that **His4Ever** is sincere in considering herself as showing love towards her fellow man by posting those Scripture quotes and defenses of literalism. I know that **gobear** and **Kirkland** can give eloquent testimony to how effective her ministry has been. So **CJ** and **Guin** and I, and a bunch of others, have been attempting to suggest more effective ways to bring her message forward here on this board. And we seem to have fallen on deaf ears. Does anybody have any other suggestions as to what to do to end that impasse? (Other than typical Pitticisms and “DNFTT”, that is.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-and-les-miz-theology-through-musical-theatre/138427.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-and-les-miz-theology-through-musical-theatre/138427.md?page=3)