# His4Ever, JerseyDiamond and Joe\_Cool are hypocrites. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 27, 2002, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-jerseydiamond-and-joe_cool-are-hypocrites/139139 "2002-11-27T17:18:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Lady\_of\_the\_Lake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@Lady\_of\_the\_Lake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lady_of_the_Lake)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2002, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-jerseydiamond-and-joe_cool-are-hypocrites/139139/361 "2002-12-04T15:32:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Esprix \* > \*\*And there’s even a civil discussion about Biblical literalism in GD. Whodathunk we could keep the appropriate discussions to the appropriate forums? > > Esprix \*\* I think bdgr and myself are on the same page regarding this thread, as it NEEDED to be started. I truly don’t understand what seems to be a double standard. But… It makes me sad when I see you getting bullied and made fun of. It makes me sad when I see posts dripping with actual disdain for the other poster…comments like ‘I USED to think you were a decent poster’ are not a compliment. It makes me sad that people think ‘abomination’ is NOT an insult. And, It makes me sad that I feel no pity for JD and JC. I should, but I don’t…I see the negativity like a cannon blast from them and can’t feel that they have been abused unfairly, but I SHOULD feel for them, shouldn’t I? My own failing in this makes me feel the worst of all about this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2002, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-jerseydiamond-and-joe_cool-are-hypocrites/139139/362 "2002-12-04T15:42:09Z")
Well, **Izzy** , it works like this: If I can tell you that I think you’re wrong, but have every right to hold your own wrong ideas, so long as you allow me the privilege of telling you why I think you’re wrong, we can have a civil discussion, and perhaps learn something from it. If there’s an absolute “you’re a hateful troll” or “you’re an abomination and a disgrace to the human race” attitude that blocks any real communication between us, then we cannot. I think **Joe** , **Jersey** , and **His** are wrong in the particular stances they’ve taken on some issues. I agree with them on others – and IMHO more fundamental ones. I despise their apparent lack of caring for others faced with other problems and concerns – and am quite well aware myself that that does not reflect a true lack of caring, but I usually cannot penetrate their worldview sufficiently to make the point that their statements are _perceived_ as uncaring judgmentalism not in tune with what their Lord and mine commanded. Well, “the world goes as it will, and not as you or I would have it.” What **Monty** was celebrating, IMHO, is that we as a board can celebrate the joyous events of our fellow members even as we disagree with them on significant and critical issues. I find **December** ’s innuendo-laden GD posting to be the next thing to trollery, but I would be quick to wish him and his wife congratulations and many more years when a thread opens noting their anniversary. Likewise, I don’t care for the attitude of many of your posts, but I have no personal grudge against you, and if you shared some concern or cause for celebration in MPSIMS, I would express the sentiment that that post engendered – sympathy, happiness for your good fortune, etc. Because we **are** a community. At least three times recently **Joe** and I have been in agreement on religious questions in GD. And I think the world of him as a man who is not afraid to stand up for his beliefs, regardless of what the world thinks of them. I am saddened by the tone of many of his posts, and would rather that he never have to resort to posting in self-defense when criticized for his attitudes, but it’s not my business to try to think for him, just to be his friend and brother in Christ, criticizing him openly when his stance appears to be at odds with what I perceive to be the proper one for a Christian (and prepared to take the same criticism back from him under the reversed circumstances, by the way), and agreeing and confirming what he has to say when his views and mine agree, and rejoicing with him in his marriage and whatever other joys he sees fit to share with us here. ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2002, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-jerseydiamond-and-joe_cool-are-hypocrites/139139/363 "2002-12-04T15:54:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > What **Monty** was celebrating, IMHO, is that we as a board can celebrate the joyous events of our fellow members even as we disagree with them on significant and critical issues. Sorry, but that’s not what Monty was doing. The specific comparison to fundamentalist extremists indicates otherwise, as above. (BTW, you will note that though you’ve posted in the MPSIMS thread, few other critics from here have, if any - I don’t think any have but am loath to look it up. So your sentiments are not as widely shared as you may think. What Monty was pointing to was NOT the fact that the antagonists here “celebrate the joyous events” elsewhere, but rather the mere fact that they refrained from “crapp[ing]” on it. A bit less, don’t you think?) > [@](#): > > If I can tell you that I think you’re wrong, but have every right to hold your own wrong ideas, so long as you allow me the privilege of telling you why I think you’re wrong, we can have a civil discussion, and perhaps learn something from it. If there’s an absolute “you’re a hateful troll” or “you’re an abomination and a disgrace to the human race” attitude that blocks any real communication between us, then we cannot. Not sure what this means - is this directed at something I’ve said, or something you’ve said or what? ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2002, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-jerseydiamond-and-joe_cool-are-hypocrites/139139/364 "2002-12-04T16:06:50Z")
**IzzyR** , I can think of at least two occaisions when **His4Ever** initially posted in a thread solely to say how sinful she thought it was. As far as I know, she hasn’t done that recently, but I think that’s what **Monty** may have been getting at. I posted in **Joe\_Cool** and **Jersey Diamond** ’s engagement thread, but no, I haven’t in the latest one. I don’t post in every thread in MPSIMS, and I don’t have enough time to, really. If you read my thread over in MPSIMS, you’ll understand that I’m having a rather rough time of things right now, not that that’s any excuse. Respectfully, CJ ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2002, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-jerseydiamond-and-joe_cool-are-hypocrites/139139/365 "2002-12-04T16:40:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cjhoworth \* > I can think of at least two occaisions when **His4Ever** initially posted in a thread solely to say how sinful she thought it was. As far as I know, she hasn’t done that recently, but I think that’s what **Monty** may have been getting at. Whatever you may think of that, and apparently many think of it negatively, there is a _huge_ difference between saying in the abstract - on a board whose ostensible purpose is the exchange of ideas - that you believe homosexual activity is sinful, and using this belief to attack individual people at their time of sorrow (or joy). It is for this reason that the vast majority of people who believe that homosexual activity is wrong do NOT stand around with “God hates fags” signs at gay-bashing victims’ funerals. If you can show me that in circumstances such as this - say, a gay guy announcing some joyous personal occasion, H4E posted to say that he is going to hell for being gay, I will grant you that the Monty comparison is valid. I doubt if you can. No need to apologize for not posting in the MPSIMS thread. I myself did not post there either - haven’t interacted with them enough to make it meaningful. The discussion here is solely about the meaning of Monty’s point. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2002, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-jerseydiamond-and-joe_cool-are-hypocrites/139139/366 "2002-12-04T22:50:16Z")
Actually, that’s not what you’re discussing, Izzy. You’re discussing the stuff you made up out of thin air about my point. CJ hit the nail on the head, as did Poly. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-jerseydiamond-and-joe_cool-are-hypocrites/139139/367 "2002-12-06T15:33:39Z")
**Izzy** , I am not an expert on social etiquette or the rigorous procedures for appropriateness of debate – though I feel that I do fairly well in most people’s opinion with my _ad hoc_ approach to what is appropriate and acceptable when. However, I **do** claim to be an expert on what is appropriate moral behavior **for Christians** , as a result of extended study and (I believe) a call to do that job. And that includes, IMHO: 1. It is our task to proclaim the Good News that God loves all people and in token of that sent Jesus to bring God and man into unity again, after egocentric, who-gives-a-hoot-what-God-wants behavior had forged a wedge of separation between them. 2. It is our task to **show** His love in our own lives, by how we respond to others. 3. It is our task to, while showing love and affection for each other, challenge _our brothers and sisters in Christ_ on what appears to be sinful behavior based on our own understanding of the Gospel. This does **not** include a chastisement of other people who are not “believers” in the Christian sense – persons who have not accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior (whether by baptism or by profession of faith). 4. For many Christians, there seems to be a sense that they must stand for the moral proprieties called for in the Bible, and alert others (whether or not they need alerting) to what God has to say about the sin which they observe those others to have been (presumably) committing. I have not seen anything resembling a mandate to do so, except for the “counsel your brother or sister” provision applicable only as between Christians. 5. It is, I think, important to _establish a relationship_ prior to any action raising a presumption of sin on the part of one’s fellow man. And it helps immensely to “walk in his (her) shoes” prior to making that call, as well. When such a relationship is established and the reader gets a sense that the person speaking (or posting) is concerned for them as a fellow human being for whom he/she cares, a great deal more latitude in what can be expressed is available than if a “cold Bible quote” is posted. It is on this last point that I would challenge what **His4Ever** has done. First, in her defense, she did in fact respond to a direct question on her stance on a given controverted issue. But, second, she did not, prior to posting something that would be seen as judgmental, establish a groundwork of mutual community between herself and her readers. (And one assumes she is well aware that posting to a thread to which self-professed gay people have responded and are apparently reading, and in fact responding to a person who was self-professedly gay, she would be aware that her response would be seen as judgmental.) **Joe** and **Jersey** are long-standing members here, and do have a sense of community with many of us. However, _for the most part_, there has been no _evident_ sense of compassion or camaraderie between them and the gay community on the board. The italicized words serve to distinguish between the two of them as people whom several gay members know IRL and whatever may be in their hearts towards gay people generally and their personal gay friends as well, on the one hand, and what a randomly chosen poster might perceive from their statements vis-a-vis homosexuality and religion on the other; I do not mean to indict them for anything other than failing (IMHO) to lay that groundwork of brother/sisterhood prior to making the comments they felt called to make on the basis of their own witness for Christ. As has been noted elsewhere, this has become something more than a place for the exchange of ideas; it has become a community. And within the context of community here, they are answerable, just as IRL, for dealing with their neighbors in a spirit of Christian compassion and grace. I think, divorced of the criticism implicit above, both would agree that that is their task, along with being staunch for what Scripture tells them is correct. There is, as we agreed to let lie fallow, some ground for interpretation as regards the relevant Scriptures. Just as **His4Ever** , **Joe** , and **Jersey** are, though apparently guilty of violating kosher laws, not sinning in failing to keep kosher because Scripture for them must be read in the greater context, including God’s message to Peter implying strongly that the dietary laws are lifted for Christians, and any humanely charitable reading of divorce-and-remarriage standards would not see **His4Ever** as sinning in ridding herself of the creature that was her first husband and remarrying, so too may **gobear** and **Mr Visible** be exempt from the mandate in Leviticus and Paul’s strictures – because those provisions, though apparently literally condemning of them, may in fact not be applicable to their situation, when the whole thrust of Scripture is taken into account. That calls for a major GD on which opinions will vary – but it needs to be taken into account in reviewing posts here. ---
**Author:** ![ultress](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/7c8e57/32.png) [@ultress](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultress)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-jerseydiamond-and-joe_cool-are-hypocrites/139139/368 "2002-12-06T16:08:40Z")
I love you to death my good friend, **Polycarp** , but I don’t think that there is anyone that is an ‘expert’ on the appropriate moral behavior of Christians. What is a sin in one person’s eyes may not be a sin in another’s and we are not to judge unless we can pass the same judgement ourselves. A precarious position to place yourself in. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-jerseydiamond-and-joe_cool-are-hypocrites/139139/369 "2002-12-06T16:24:06Z")
**Ultress** , did you read the rest of his post? ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-jerseydiamond-and-joe_cool-are-hypocrites/139139/370 "2002-12-06T16:42:48Z")
Well that pretty much says everything that needs to be said I think… ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-jerseydiamond-and-joe_cool-are-hypocrites/139139/371 "2002-12-06T17:07:17Z")
**Ultress** , there’s a law somewhere around the board that whenever you say anything that can be misunderstood, it will be. I don’t claim to be an expert on what you or **Joe** or **Jersey** or **His** ought to do – that’s your own moral choice, to be decided by you under the guidance of your knowledge of the Scriptures, the teachings of your own church, and above all the guidance of the Holy Spirit. And I’m chagrined that my original statement claimed me to be such. What I was claiming – or at least intended to claim – is a rather extensive knowledge of the Scriptures and teachings of the faith regarding moral decisions. Which was intended to justify my pontifications that followed as being not merely mine but based on an application to our present circumstances of the teachings of the church down through history, as I understand them. Forgive the inadvertent arrogance, please! ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-jerseydiamond-and-joe_cool-are-hypocrites/139139/372 "2002-12-06T17:22:11Z")
I agree with **bdgr** , Mods please close this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-jerseydiamond-and-joe_cool-are-hypocrites/139139/373 "2002-12-06T17:47:39Z")
But everyone’s having such a good _time_… Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Mars\_Horizon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mars_horizon/32/2804_2.png) [@Mars\_Horizon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mars_Horizon)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-jerseydiamond-and-joe_cool-are-hypocrites/139139/374 "2002-12-06T18:00:40Z")
Careful now, you’ll irritate **Lib** 🙂 ([sub]I love you Lib![/sub] ) ---
**Author:** ![BF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5ac83/32.png) [@BF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BF)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-jerseydiamond-and-joe_cool-are-hypocrites/139139/375 "2002-12-06T19:33:36Z")
No, wait, this thread is one of the first I’ve ever seen that had more than 10K views!! ---
**Author:** ![swingchick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@swingchick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/swingchick)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-jerseydiamond-and-joe_cool-are-hypocrites/139139/376 "2002-12-06T23:14:56Z")
{In either case, whether an apology is owed or not, your witness to Christ is severly compromised by your behavior. Since I don’t claim to witness for Christ, let me state again, Fuck you. -HOMEBREW} Christians aren’t perfect. Just forgiven! ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-jerseydiamond-and-joe_cool-are-hypocrites/139139/377 "2002-12-06T23:33:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by swingchick \* > \*\*Christians aren’t perfect. Just forgiven! \*\* I truly find that phrase to be most unhelpful. A classic example of antinomian thinking. An antinomian believes that those who are saved can continue to live a lifestyle of sin or even fall into disbelief and yet retain their salvation status. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-jerseydiamond-and-joe_cool-are-hypocrites/139139/378 "2002-12-06T23:50:48Z")
Actually, **Qadgop** , I just find the phrase to be astoudingly smug and self-rigteous - which is entirely appropriate, given the OP. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-jerseydiamond-and-joe_cool-are-hypocrites/139139/379 "2002-12-07T00:57:35Z")
It also tends to overlook the fairly clear Christian concept that Jesus came for the remission of the sins of all people. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-jerseydiamond-and-joe_cool-are-hypocrites/139139/380 "2002-12-07T16:41:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ultress \* > \*\* What is a sin in one person’s eyes may not be a sin in another’s and we are not to judge unless we can pass the same judgement ourselves. A precarious position to place yourself in. \*\* I must make a short comment here. It matters not one whit whether each individual person thinks something is a sin or not. What matters is what God has to say about it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-jerseydiamond-and-joe_cool-are-hypocrites/139139.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-jerseydiamond-and-joe_cool-are-hypocrites/139139.md?page=20)