# His4Ever, JerseyDiamond and Joe\_Cool are hypocrites. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 27, 2002, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-jerseydiamond-and-joe_cool-are-hypocrites/139139 "2002-11-27T17:18:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-jerseydiamond-and-joe_cool-are-hypocrites/139139/461 "2002-12-11T11:54:58Z")
Thank you, **Joe**. The thing is, I **want** to be able discuss these things with you because I want to love you. I want to love **JerseyDiamond**. I want to love **Hastur**. I want to love **Esprix**. I want to love **Libertarian**. I want to love **Jodi**. I want to love **His4Ever**. There’s more to say, but that’s for another time and another thread. But I do want to be your friend. Frankly, I don’t think **H4e** sinned for divorcing her first husband. He was abusive and cruel, and whatever Jesus may have meant by His words about divorce, there’s no way he could have meant for her to stay in a house ruled by fear and pain. If there is a God, the He must want us to be happy, not tormented. Whatever has happened in **H4E** ’s life to make her marry and divorce a second time, God must have a much vaster knowledge of. He must know her circumstances and her psychology and he must know how much choice she may have had and what, if any, resposibility she bears for the failure of her marriages. But that is between her and God, just as **Joe\_Cool** and **JerseyDiamond’s** pasts are between them and God. Nobody else can know what goes in someone’s head, how they wewre raised and what unconscious mechanisms might make people choose unwise paths. Similarly, I would like people to lay off me for being gay. That’s something that is out of my control; clearly, God must have intended this for me. If the words of the Bible seem to contradict this, then they are not being understood properly. My life is better for being with someone who loves me, and that must be what God (if he exists) wants. The same goes for **H4E**. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-jerseydiamond-and-joe_cool-are-hypocrites/139139/462 "2002-12-11T13:52:29Z")
Interesting concept there, Joe. Let’s see. You ask > [@](#): > > Because how is dissolving another marriage better? The answer there, apparently, is that there’s no second marriage. At least according to the literalist view. You also say > [@](#): > > Anyway, sin is sin. Cruise back to this thread’s OP. > [@](#): > > All sin can be forgiven, if repented Ah, I get it now. “Repent” in your view is to continue to live in sin. Thanks for the update on the term. You really don’t get it, do you? It’s been made manifestly clear in this thread what the point of the OP is and yet you still don’t get it. Truly amazing. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-jerseydiamond-and-joe_cool-are-hypocrites/139139/463 "2002-12-11T13:56:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > If there is a God, the He must want us to be happy, not tormented. I agree with you, gobear, and apparently so does my church. > [@](#): > > Book of Mormon, 2nd Nephi, 2nd Chapter, 25th Verse (2nd part of verse) > Men are, that they might have joy. ---
**Author:** ![Anahita](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9a28c/32.png) [@Anahita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anahita)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-jerseydiamond-and-joe_cool-are-hypocrites/139139/464 "2002-12-11T14:36:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\* > > To tewll the truth, I would like everybody to back the fuck the fuck off **JC** and **JD**. I think it’s obvious that there is some painful history involved here and nobody’s agenda is advanced by exploiting that pain. It seems to me that the surest way to show **Joe\_Cool** and **JerseyDiamond** the superior value of compassion is to be compassionate. > \*\* I agree, their personal life is none of our business and they’ve both stated several times that they will not share that personal (and possibly painful) information with the boards. Who can blame them for that? I’m all for letting it go. Good on you, **gobear**. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-jerseydiamond-and-joe_cool-are-hypocrites/139139/465 "2002-12-11T15:01:10Z")
I’m all for letting it go, also. First step: they need to quit condemning others. AFAICT here, nobody other than the recently rebanned one, has condemned them. The OP asked a question and then the not so very Christ-like responses came from them. Actually, that was no surprise. Well, the degree of invective in response was somewhat surprising. But it seems that at least two of the folks mentioned in the OP are starting to learn what kind of lens they’ve been applying to others and how that lens works when applied to them. The third one is now doing an award-winning tapdance. Regarding their personal life as being none of anyone else’s business: the Catholics’ and the Mormons’ relationship with deity is none of their (the folks mentioned in the OP) business and neither is gobear’s personal life, nor the personal life of anyone else for that matter. What you’ve seen here in action, in this thread, was the practical application of what happens when someone judges someone else–they get the same scrutiny. And, you know what? They don’t stand up to that scrutiny. Oh, I’ll let it go in this thread. But, every single time any of those three mention any type of pronouncement on me or anyone else and attempt to use Scripture to justify it, I will first laugh and then I’ll will remind them that they are hypocrites when they do that. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-jerseydiamond-and-joe_cool-are-hypocrites/139139/466 "2002-12-11T15:12:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > **It seems to me that the surest way to show Joe\_Cool and JerseyDiamond the superior value of compassion is to be compassionate.** Oh sure, if you want to go all _Enlightened_ on us. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ace_of_Swords)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-jerseydiamond-and-joe_cool-are-hypocrites/139139/467 "2002-12-11T15:17:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > I genuinely wish that I could discuss this religious experience I have been having and thic conviction that I need to be kinder and more merciful. But the Christians despise me, and the nob-Christians think me a fool or an appeaser for wanting to promote peace. \*\* Hey, nobody ever said being a Saint was chock full o benefits. 😉 Do I qualify as a non-Christian? I’m pretty sure I do – and I think you’ve been pretty great of late. Well said. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-jerseydiamond-and-joe_cool-are-hypocrites/139139/468 "2002-12-11T15:20:13Z")
most folks do like **gobear**. ---
**Author:** ![hawthorne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@hawthorne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hawthorne)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-jerseydiamond-and-joe_cool-are-hypocrites/139139/469 "2002-12-11T15:30:10Z")
**Homebrew** , it’s your thread. You could ask for it to be closed. IMHO if there’s nothing new to say, you should. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-jerseydiamond-and-joe_cool-are-hypocrites/139139/470 "2002-12-11T17:00:51Z")
> [@](#): > > What you’ve seen here in action, in this thread, was the practical application of what happens when someone judges someone else–they get the same scrutiny. And, you know what? They don’t stand up to that scrutiny. Huh. As in, “Judge not, lest you be judged”?? 🙂 On [another thread on another board](http://thebruces.stormbirds.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13454), **His4Ever** asked the opinion of Christians as to her divorces and remarriages. I had this to say there (and I think it almost directly echoes what **gobear** and to a lesser extent **Joe Cool** had to say here on the subject: > [@](#): > > There’s a lot to be said on this issue, and I’m just going to touch the surface. > > First, Jesus is fairly explicit on divorce – no man is to put away his wife and take another one, the sole exception he allows being adultery on her part. (One assumes that this applies in precise reverse to a woman, who would not be allowed to put away her husband and take another unless he were guilty of adultery.) Paul makes one other exception, based on circumstances – if an unbeliever puts away his/her converted spouse, the spouse is to consider him/herself free of the marriage and able to remarry. > > The key point is that you’ve made a lifelong commitment to another, and personal choice is not a reason to break that vow before God. > > Second, it’s been the experience of the Church in trying to apply these rules to human lives over the past 2000 years that circumstances alter cases. I once summarized this idea in the words that one should treat a marriage like a person – it has a right to life, it should be cherished and nurtured, if injured it should be healed, if dying it should be revived – but if dead, it should be taken out and buried. Some marriages just will not work, and should never have been entered into. Some will die with the changes time makes in people. > > Myself, I would never judge your decisions, except to confirm to you your own awareness that you were led by the Lord to come out of that horrible first marriage. I went on to discuss this very thread and the accusations of hypocrisy against her here based on how she _seemed_ to read the rules of Scripture differently when she was personally involved, largely to try to give her an understanding of what I saw as the question being raised. It occurs to me that a fair summary of Jesus’s message as regards morality would be: “Live a moral life yourself. Try to help others; that’s a key part of morality. Don’t try to judge the morals of others, as you fear God’s judgment on your own. Remember that God loves you and is prepared to forgive your sins if you will just turn to Him and repent them, and strive to lead a moral life afterwards.” IMHO, the people involved here are doing that, to the extent I know their situations. AFAIAC, case is closed. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-jerseydiamond-and-joe_cool-are-hypocrites/139139/471 "2002-12-11T17:43:55Z")
> [@](#): > > Huh. As in, “Judge not, lest you be judged”?? Exactly, Poly. The three folks mentioned in the OP appeared here and were quite judgmental. Wrong, but judgmental. Now there’s something happening in the lives of a couple of them and, lo and behold, the tables have been turned. I suppose one could call it Karma. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-jerseydiamond-and-joe_cool-are-hypocrites/139139/472 "2002-12-11T18:09:44Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **Joe\_Cool** _ > > I think I’ve been pretty clear about where I stand regarding divorce and remarriage… Now, show me how all those words about divorce being adultery and precluding the possibility of marriage apply **to me**. > > But, since you don’t know the details of our personal lives, nor will you ever, you’ll just have to believe me… when I say that they don’t apply to us. So why not just shut up about it already? Sure. Could you shut up about homosexuality being a sin? Sounds like a deal to me. > [@](#): > > Why are you so fired up about not being able to have your relationship sanctified by a God you don’t believe in, and a church you don’t want any part of? It isn’t for me - it’s for GLBT Christians, for one, but in a broader sense, it’s for all those people that have been rejected, scorned, belittled, broken and beaten by the juggernaut of Christianity. Have you done it, personally? Probably not. But the fact remains that Christian doctrine teaches that the one of the fundamental basics of our humanity - our sexual orientation - is a sin that, if unrepentented, will lead to eternal damnation. Thankfully there are lots and lots and lots of Christians who disagree, but the fact remains (as you so aptly pointed out) - _it’s in the Bible, and therefore it is God’s word_, and a lot of Christians believe that and act on it (anything from looking down one’s nose to actively discriminating against the gay community). > [@](#): > > Tell you what: You show me all the threads where I’ve been called out and challenged to defend my beliefs on other sins, or where proponents of those sins argue that they aren’t, in fact, sins. That’s where you’ll find it. I do believe you’ve been called out in this very thread. Your responses, however, have been less than forthcoming, which is in sharp contrast to your very honest and forthright responses in threads regarding homosexuality. > [@](#): > > And you’re right - many, many other sins are much more socially relevant and hold much more importance in my worldview than does homosexuality. But the problem here isn’t me - it’s all the one-trick gay ponies, who don’t have anything better to do than to insult those of us who don’t believe the same things as they do about homosexuality. Neigh, I say. And I daresay most of your opponents in this fight are heterosexual. > [@](#): > > I’m not picking and choosing anything about remarriage. Nor have I decided who is or isn’t a “real” Christian. We are to judge our own - and that means those who claim the label “Christian”. I was taking issue with something that many Christians of the liberal stripe do. That is my prerogative as a Christian. I cringe at the thought of you meeting a gay Christian. > [@](#): > > Suppose John tells you “if you walk off this ledge, you’ll fall and die on the rocks below,” and you say “F you, pal, you can’t tell ME how to live!” and walk off anyway. Guess what: it’s your own actions that condemned you, not John. Actually, gravity did, but thanks for the analogy anyway, Occam. You state your beliefs as if they are facts, when they are not - they are your beliefs. It would be helpful if you made that clear. > [@](#): > > I stand by what I said above. That is what I believe. But, I don’t recall where it says that in the Bible. In fact, I don’t recall ever saying that was in the Bible, or that it was anything other than my own opinion. Maybe you can point that out for me. I was saying, rather, that it doesn’t matter to you what the American Psychological Association has researched, nor what I think, nor even what you think - the Bible says it’s a sin, so that’s that. > [@](#): > > But yes, I think the majority of psychology is B.S. masquerading as science. So if you were to say "Gosh, Joe Cool, this latest psychological study says that … " I’d probably ignore you. OK, Dopers, take note - **Joe\_Cool** knows better than 35+ years of scientific study. :rolleyes: This isn’t “the latest psychological study,” this is years of research. If you can accept a little bit of science when it comes to Creationism, I find it interesting that you can’t accept a whole lot when it comes to homosexuality. > [@](#): > > I’m not getting baited into another 10-page argument full of strawmen. I’ve posted prodigiously on the topic of why some things from the OT are no longer applicable and others are. If you want to know what I think, you can find it here. Cute - point me to the search page. Once again, not very forthcoming about completely relevant and related issues that address fairly basically the issue of homosexuality as a sin in today’s society - not “strawmen.” > [@](#): > > As you say, I backed up my statements with quotes from the Bible. So it appears that, once again, your problem is with God and with the Bible, not with me. I don’t condemn anyone, I’ve only reported what the Bible says. Judgment is God’s domain, not mine. And, again, we’re also just playing the part of the messenger for you, reminding you what your own book says. If you’re going to use it to justify “the sin of homosexuality,” it makes sense we can use the same text to point out other sins that you may or may not be aware of. Glad to be of help. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-jerseydiamond-and-joe_cool-are-hypocrites/139139/473 "2002-12-11T18:19:29Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **Joe\_Cool** _ > > Anyway, sin is sin. All sin can be forgiven, if repented (and I’ve said this before. Don’t try to pretend I’m hedging). If **His4ever** truly belongs to Christ, then her sins are forgiven. That doesn’t mean that our sins aren’t sin, it doesn’t mean we have a free pass, and it doesn’t mean that we should “continue in sin, that grace may abound.” > > That’s not hypocrisy. Yes, she was wrong to remarry, and even more wrong to divorce and remarry again. But that doesn’t mean that it would be better to divorce a third time. It doesn’t mean that she deserves the hate you (collectively) have shown her, and it doesn’t mean that she’s forever branded and incapable of growing as a Christian. Actually, I can live with this - at least there’s some consistency between your “helpfully pointing out that the Bible says homosexual acts are a sin” and stating flatly that so is remarriage. Please keep in mind, however, that “sin” is an emotionally charged word, and throwing it around is part of what people get their hackles up about. Whether you mean it or not, there is an implied condescention, condemnation and “holier-than-thou” attitude expressed with that word, so if you’re going to continue to use it (all for our own good, of course :rolleyes: ), you might want to keep this in mind. And, for the record, I’m extremely happy to hear that **His4ever** left an abusive relationship and that, hopefully, has found love again. I could never see that as any kind of “sin” and could never believe that a truly loving god would think it was. Similarly, I’m glad that you and **Jersey** are happy and working towards a healthy, loving relationship - everyone deserves that. I just hope that any GLBT folk you know (especially any Christian ones) get the same respect from you. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-jerseydiamond-and-joe_cool-are-hypocrites/139139/474 "2002-12-11T18:25:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > > I want to love **Esprix**. Fresh! _{bats eyelashes}_ 😉 Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Cool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecb155/32.png) [@Joe\_Cool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Cool)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-jerseydiamond-and-joe_cool-are-hypocrites/139139/475 "2002-12-11T19:23:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Esprix \* > **Sure. Could you shut up about homosexuality being a sin? Sounds like a deal to me.** Sure thing, unless there’s another debate with “what the Bible says about homosexuality” at its core. Remember that I have not gone around to every thread that has gay people posting on it telling them that they’re sinners. On this topic I have only responded to asked questions and come to the defense of those being attacked unfairly for stating what the Bible says. > [@](#): > > **It isn’t for me - it’s for GLBT Christians, for one, but in a broader sense, it’s for all those people that have been rejected, scorned, belittled, broken and beaten by the juggernaut of Christianity. Have you done it, personally? Probably not. But the fact remains that Christian doctrine teaches that the one of the fundamental basics of our humanity - our sexual orientation - is a sin that, if unrepentented, will lead to eternal damnation. Thankfully there are lots and lots and lots of Christians who disagree, but the fact remains (as you so aptly pointed out) - _it’s in the Bible, and therefore it is God’s word_, and a lot of Christians believe that and act on it (anything from looking down one’s nose to actively discriminating against the gay community).** Well, that’s certainly a noble pursuit. Except, of course, for the part where you attack me as a proxy for all those people who have discriminated against gays, which you seem to acknowledge is something I haven’t done personally. But other than that, good luck in your crusade. You have my support, up to the point where it contradicts my understanding of the Bible, i.e. church-sanctioned marriages for gays. If someday I get a revelation from God telling me that he does indeed approve of homosexual relationships, then you will have my most abject apology and my most fervent support. Until then, we will disagree on that point. > [@](#): > > **I do believe you’ve been called out in this very thread. Your responses, however, have been less than forthcoming, which is in sharp contrast to your very honest and forthright responses in threads regarding homosexuality.** Yes we have. But without any evidence of the accusation being true. It’s up to the accuser to prove the accusation, not the accused to disprove it. This thread is based on a piece of hearsay that Maeglin incorrectly remembers (or heard from an inaccurate source); but even when he apologized for the misinformation, the train didn’t even slow down. Yeah, that’s a fair trial. :rolleyes: Esprix, the circumstances leading up to our raising a child together are not public information. That is the difference between our situation and yours, for example. Here’s an idea: why don’t you search, for Jerseydiamond’s “Ask the girl who…” anywhere on the board. You won’t find them. Do you know why? Because she didn’t post them. Because her personal history is nobody’s business except hers and mine. And that’s the way it’s going to stay unless she changes her mind. So if you don’t think I provided a proper defense to “prove my innocence” of adultery, too bad. > [@](#): > > **Neigh, I say. And I daresay most of your opponents in this fight are heterosexual.** And none of them are attacking us based on facts - only with strawmen (“Well, since you’re a literalist…” etc) and hatred based on the username or the fact that I’m a conservative Christian who doesn’t agree with their interpretation of the Bible’s words on homosexuality. > [@](#): > > **I cringe at the thought of you meeting a gay Christian.** Oh yeah, I’m already a-lightin’ them torches and a-sharpenin’ mah pitchfork. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > **OK, Dopers, take note - Joe\_Cool knows better than 35+ years of scientific study. :rolleyes: This isn’t “the latest psychological study,” this is years of research. If you can accept a little bit of science when it comes to Creationism, I find it interesting that you can’t accept a whole lot when it comes to homosexuality.** I accept a whole lot of science. That doesn’t mean I’m obligated to accept everything said in the name of science. And it doesn’t make psychology a valid science, either. There is some worthwhile learning in psychology, but the most part of it appears to be conjecture and wishful thinking dressed in the trappings of scientific fact. And, as I said before, it doesn’t matter all that much to me if it’s natural or not. Natural doesn’t mean good. Lying and violence also come naturally. As do thievery and disobedience. Sin, according to the Bible (ok, my understanding of the bible. That make you happy?), is our natural state - hence our need for salvation through Jesus. So even if you prove to me that homosexuality is natural, that doesn’t help the case. > [@](#): > > **Cute - point me to the search page. Once again, not very forthcoming about completely relevant and related issues that address fairly basically the issue of homosexuality as a sin in today’s society - not "strawmen."** I don’t know where you get the idea that I’m obligated to follow you into every argument that you want to start, and when you want it. But I don’t feel like rehashing the “OT vs NT why doesn’t this apply to you? and this? and this? and this? but this does? and this?” argument again. And I’m not going to. At least not today. And I wasn’t trying to be a jerk with the search link - only making a point. I’ve already gone over the Old Testament laws many times. It’s not a fight I’m ready to have again. If you search, you’ll find it. Search results as posts; user joe\_cool; keywords moral, ceremonial, testament; forum Great Debates; dates a year ago and older. Maybe 6 months. Is that more helpful to you? I assumed you were aware of those specific discussions and knew how to find them. Sorry. > [@](#): > > \*\*And, again, we’re also just playing the part of the messenger for you, reminding you what your own book says. If you’re going to use it to justify “the sin of homosexuality,” it makes sense we can use the same text to point out other sins that you may or may not be aware of. > > Glad to be of help.\*\* And it would be a great help, if you even put on the pretense of caring about your targets (you guys make His4ever look like Mother Theresa), or if **the passages you quote at me were applicable, and the accusations you level against me were accurate**. In other words, if you had half a clue what you were talking about. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-jerseydiamond-and-joe_cool-are-hypocrites/139139/476 "2002-12-11T20:06:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Joe\_Cool \* > > And it would be a great help, if you even put on the pretense of caring about your targets (you guys make His4ever look like Mother Theresa), \*\* **Joe** , you and will disagree on the question of homosexuality and sin; I know that being gay is who I am, and if the Bible declares my love to be wicked, then the Bible is in error. But that does not mean that we must be enemies. My hope is that, through the jiu-jitsu of _satyagraha_ (or _agape_ if you prefer), I can change your minds. I will show you my wounded heart, a heart that has been broken through the self-righteouesness and cruelty of people who serve the letter, but not the spirit of the law. I John says, “He who says he loves God, yet hates his brother, is a liar and the truth is not in him,” and I feel that is true of many people who judge others cruelly in the name of a compassionate and merciful God. It is also true of others who demand perfection of all save themselves. I will continue to disagree with you on some matters, but I’m trying to do so with love. I wish to love you and love **JerseyDiamond**. The Buddha taught that we must have compassion on all beings throughout the universe and not cease from striving with love until all beings have achieved enlightenment. In this season, when Christians believe that their Creator was made flesh in the supreme gift of love, doe it not behoove us to appeal to the better angels of our adversaries’ natures? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-jerseydiamond-and-joe_cool-are-hypocrites/139139/477 "2002-12-11T20:42:52Z")
So mote it be!!! 🙂 In all seriousness, gentlemen, now that we have established that **Joe** and **Jersey** are not the agents of Fred Phelps here ;), what about a thread, I think in the Pit to give room for invective, that deals with **Jersey** ’s comment about gays being bitter – bringing to people who may not know the full extent of it the sorts of lies perpetrated by some of the leaders of the Religious Right, and the truth about them. That’s how I learned what I know about it – by reading screeds on the one hand and personal accounts on the other, and realizing who was telling the truth. Thus will ignorance truly be fought, and thus, hopefully, will hearts be changed. I think I’ve mentioned before having gone into a bar one evening in 1998 for a drink before driving home, sitting down at a little triangular table, and then reading a few days later in the weekly newspaper here an account by a gay journalist who had known Matthew Shepherd in which he described talking with Matthew over drinks in a bar. That bar. That table. The stool I had sat on. If you’ve ever felt the impact of what it’s like to walk in the shoes of another, you have a very mild suggestion of what that article did to me. All my life I’ve been fairly small and weak, and something of an outsider. There but for the grace of God go I. **Joe** , I have never disagreed with you about the words of Scripture – but occasionally I have on how they are to be interpreted and applied. I ask you and **Jersey** , in the name of that young and unjustly murdered man, to forgive the people who have savaged you in the past here – because they live with the knowledge that they could be next, and that a lot of what creates that negativity is people who not only quote what the Bible says but then decide that it’s necessary to “ **do** something about them evil faggots destroying Amurrican values.” And for our Lord’s righteousness and mercy, they sow hatred. For the sort of love that looks on with compassion or the sort of love that warns of danger, they substitute demonization. Is it any wonder to you that, with you standing on the Biblical issues you see as most important to emphasize and with no knowledge of your personal feelings, some of them saw you as following in the shoes of these pseudo-Christian hatemongers from what little you did say? And I know you now well enough to know how you would react to someone condemning you as it appeared to them that you did them. And now that we have gone through all that, can you and **Jersey** , rejoicing in your new marriage and in the coming celebration of our Lord’s birth, see your way clear to truly forgive those who, wronged by many who call themselves Christian, mistook your message for more of their hate and reacted in hate themselves? ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-jerseydiamond-and-joe_cool-are-hypocrites/139139/478 "2002-12-11T21:09:41Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **Joe\_Cool** _ > > Sure thing, unless there’s another debate with “what the Bible says about homosexuality” at its core. Remember that I have not gone around to every thread that has gay people posting on it telling them that they’re sinners. On this topic I have only responded to asked questions and come to the defense of those being attacked unfairly for stating what the Bible says. Please understand that when those “being attacked unfairly” are being refuted it’s because they are, using their holy text, telling people that what they consider to be one of the most innate, natural, crucial parts of their humanity - their sexual orientation - will, if unrepented, leave them suffering eternal torment. Don’t blame people for standing up for themselves and their beliefs - just like you do. I’d just as soon see you stay out of those kinds of threads for a while, but that’s up to you. > [@](#): > > If someday I get a revelation from God telling me that he does indeed approve of homosexual relationships, then you will have my most abject apology and my most fervent support. You keep us updated on that, now. > [@](#): > > Yes we have. But without any evidence of the accusation being true. It’s up to the accuser to prove the accusation, not the accused to disprove it. Well, then, my sincerest condolences on you and **Jersey** for the loss of your respective first spouses. And if that’s not the case, then I hope your covenant with Jesus Christ helps absolve you of your sins. Either way, good luck to you both. > [@](#): > > Esprix, the circumstances leading up to our raising a child together are not public information. True - I think everyone has granted you that. However, if, on a public message board, you express your beliefs (even if they are as “axiomatic” as the “sin of homosexuality” in the Bible), then don’t be surprised when you’re taken to task on it, and asked more about your beliefs. You’re welcome to use the privacy defense, of course, but don’t think it gives you any more credibility. > [@](#): > > Oh yeah, I’m already a-lightin’ them torches and a-sharpenin’ mah pitchfork. :rolleyes: But you’re qualified to judge them because they are Christian. > [@](#): > > There is some worthwhile learning in psychology, but the most part of it appears to be conjecture and wishful thinking dressed in the trappings of scientific fact. I’m finding this hard to respond to, but I’ll chalk it up to your “learned opinion” and leave it at that. > [@](#): > > Sin, according to the Bible ( **ok, my understanding of the bible. That make you happy?** ), is our natural state - hence our need for salvation through Jesus. {emphasis mine} **YES! YES! A THOUSAND TIMES YES!** At least for me, that little qualifier - “my understanding,” “my opinion,” or “my interpretation” - makes a WORLD of difference in how I see you. > [@](#): > > I don’t know where you get the idea that I’m obligated to follow you into every argument that you want to start, and when you want it. You’re not, but again, if you post your opinions on a public message board, you may be called to expound, defend or clarify them, and by not doing so, you lose some credibility. I’m sure this isn’t news to you. > [@](#): > > I assumed you were aware of those specific discussions and knew how to find them. Nope - that’s why I asked the question. I’ll perhaps make use of that search function to get an idea of your thoughts, but, for me, the gist of that article is valid - Christianity has reinterpreted scripture over the past two centuries on certain topics, but not others, and the gay community ends up with the raw end of the deal. > [@](#): > > And it would be a great help, if you even put on the pretense of caring about your targets (you guys make His4ever look like Mother Theresa), or if **the passages you quote at me were applicable, and the accusations you level against me were accurate**. In other words, if you had half a clue what you were talking about. Bah - **His** is no saint. In fact, you may not have gone into every thread and levelled eternal damnation against the GLBT community, but **His** has, and got quite an earful for it. And yes, your vehement stance on your private life precludes anyone from definitively pointing out your hypocrisy - that’s between you and your god. I hope your interpretation of your holy book about him being merciful and loving is correct, or I may have to save you a seat next to me in the afterlife - at least, according to the Bible. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-jerseydiamond-and-joe_cool-are-hypocrites/139139/479 "2002-12-11T21:16:25Z")
I don’t see where one gets to repent in advance of future sins, Joe. Please point me to the reference you cite for that. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![dalovindj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/65b543/32.png) [@dalovindj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalovindj)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-jerseydiamond-and-joe_cool-are-hypocrites/139139/480 "2002-12-11T21:26:48Z")
> [@](#): > > **Bart** : > I think I’ll go for the life of sin, followed by a presto-change-o deathbed repentance. > > **Faith:** > Wow, that’s a good angle. But that’s not God’s angle. Why not spend your life helping people instead. Then you’re also covered in case of sudden death. > > **Bart** : > Full coverage? Hmmm. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-jerseydiamond-and-joe_cool-are-hypocrites/139139.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-jerseydiamond-and-joe_cool-are-hypocrites/139139.md?page=25)