# His4Ever, why are you telling lies about your Deity? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 5, 2002, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-why-are-you-telling-lies-about-your-deity/130922 "2002-10-05T02:27:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Mars\_Horizon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mars_horizon/32/2804_2.png) [@Mars\_Horizon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mars_Horizon)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2002, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-why-are-you-telling-lies-about-your-deity/130922/141 "2002-10-09T01:04:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Princhester \* > \*\*Monty, there is no god. Gods are just human constructs made up by peoples the world over. There is no logical reason to believe in a god, and there is no evidence that gods exist. There are any number of threads on this board and books which demonstrate this You have now been shown the facts of the matter. Any further posts by you to the effect that there is a god will now be deliberate lies. \*\* Oh, Jimmy Smits\*! Where do I begin??? It’s so wonderful that there are threads **on this very message board** which demonstrate that all supernatural beliefs everywhere at all times are pure hogwash. :rolleyes: C’mon **Princhester** - reason compels me to admit that the typical forms of “God” that have been presented are mutually contradictory and inconsistent, but “deliberate lies”? Surely even the most hardened of “strong atheists” can admit that we do not fully understand the world around us? Shall we insist that all theists are fools or liars? Have we invented our own “dilemma”? Clive Staples would be proud. Or has all been discovered that shall be discovered? They said of theoretical physics that in 1930 too and they look foolish as a result. We can all agree that **H4E** is a sad pathetic creature without having to ridicule **all** theists. What’s your beef with **Monty**? Mars the “weak” atheist - my new expletive meant to replace the typical two word exclamation beginning with “J”, which offends Christians and is irrelevant to the rest of us. ---
**Author:** ![Mars\_Horizon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mars_horizon/32/2804_2.png) [@Mars\_Horizon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mars_Horizon)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2002, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-why-are-you-telling-lies-about-your-deity/130922/142 "2002-10-09T01:09:41Z")
D’oh! Speaking of ridicule… that should have said “They said **that** of theoretical physics in 1930 too…” :: sigh :: ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2002, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-why-are-you-telling-lies-about-your-deity/130922/143 "2002-10-09T01:11:05Z")
**Mars Horizon** read the goddamned thread before you post. The post of mine that you quote was precisely a parody of the behaviour that you now accuse me of. Twit. ---
**Author:** ![Mars\_Horizon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mars_horizon/32/2804_2.png) [@Mars\_Horizon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mars_Horizon)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2002, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-why-are-you-telling-lies-about-your-deity/130922/144 "2002-10-09T02:02:04Z")
**Princhester** - thanks for the insult. Just to make sure I wasn’t crazy, I reread the entire thread. I guess my concern was with the harshness with which you attacked **Monty’s** position. I didn’t see a call for it. But maybe there’s something between you two I am not aware of. In any event, fight on. I’ll not intervene again. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2002, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-why-are-you-telling-lies-about-your-deity/130922/145 "2002-10-09T02:06:03Z")
**Mars Horizon** read the thread title and see who is being harsh. I am beginning to get harsh because Monty’s arrogance is beginning to get me down. ---
**Author:** ![lel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8797f3/32.png) [@lel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lel)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2002, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-why-are-you-telling-lies-about-your-deity/130922/146 "2002-10-09T03:38:22Z")
Many of you are stating that **H4e** has certainly not won any converts on this board. I’m not yet ready to take the plunge and dive right into fundieism (after all, I still think Jack Chick is too mean-spirited) but I’ve given many things a second look due to her presence. While I’m not a fan of her method of spreading what she believes to be the word of God, she has made me rethink Christianity in many ways. Should the Bible be the primary object of Christianity? Are homosexual acts condemned by the Bible? Should Christians try to classify who is and is not Christian and if so, where is the line? I am no closer to the answers to these than I was before the arrival of **H4e** , but I have now given serious thought to sticking much closer to the Bible than I had been doing. Maybe there is something behind a strict and literal interpretation of the Bible. On a more depressing note, maybe homosexual acts are not looked upon favorably by the Bible (although I personally hope is not so). > [@](#): > > I’ve often wondered about that. It seems a literal interpretation of the Bible requires you to shut down parts of your mind. For instance, you may ask “how the hell did Noah fit all those animals in one ark, no matter how big?” and you’re told, “shut up, its a miracle”. > > Perhaps an answer to that is the story of the fall? When Adam and Eve ate fruit from the tree of knowledge? Does the God of the Bible want us to be ignorant? **ouisey** , I’m trying to expand my faith (to use a more fundie-friendly term than “shut down your mind”). It’s one heck of a difficult thing to do. > [@](#): > > I cannot understand how anyone can worship a God whose sole relationship with His creatures is to inspire fear and a small-child worry about consequences – “Don’t do that, gobear – Daddy’ll catch you and punish you!” **Polycarp** , I don’t see it either. Unfortunately, I believe that I am led by the Holy Spirit to view God in a manner such as this – and it’s been painful, because I just can’t seem to do it. > [@](#): > > Anymore, and this is sad, being RAISED a Christian and a Catholic, I get wary when someone mentions they are Christian, or very religious. And I don’t like feeling that way. Anymore, I get suspicious and afraid that someone might be a fundy. Same here, **Guin**. I couldn’t tell you how many times I’ve been proselytized by people when we agreed on 95% of what we were discussing. _sigh_ > [@](#): > > To be pessimistic, it’s because they’re off the hook. They’re afraid of what happens if they don’t believe (burning in hell for eternity), and so they’re glad to get a get-out-of-hell card. You’ve hit the nail on the head with me, **DeniseV**. Unfortunately, I can’t seem to claim that get-out-of-hell card correctly, so I’m convinced that I’m going to go burn (to use a burning metaphor – what hell is exactly, I don’t know) when I’m dead. I’m very conscious of this. I get reminded of it constantly. I just can’t seem to believe the right things in the right ways. **H4e** , you have accomplished your goal. One person has reviewed your brand of Christianity favorably, although I still don’t like the manner of presentation. Not to get into a discussion on predestination, but I wonder if I’m just not predestined to be one of God’s chosen ones. ---
**Author:** ![Kirkland1244](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kirkland1244](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kirkland1244)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2002, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-why-are-you-telling-lies-about-your-deity/130922/147 "2002-10-09T06:56:11Z")
Anyone who would sign on to H4E’s perverted filth religion, which is not any form of Christianity any of the great fathers, doctors and saints of the Church would recognize, needs to do some serious soul searching, because something very evil is inside of you. H4E’s demon religion is a hateful, anti-intellectual death cult that worships an oft-redacted and translated collections of myths assembled by a group of basically unintelligent nomads. They don’t worship God, they worship their own interpretation of the Bible. And it is a simplistic and meaningless interpretation at that. The truths found in the Bible are buried under myth and archaic, pre-scientific mysticism. You can’t just read the book and say “well, that’s that.” You have to figure out why these people believed what they did. The world was not created in 6 days 6,000 years ago. It simply wasn’t, every shred of data states this emphatically. Submitting to any form of religion that expects you to believe this is to commit intellectual suicide. God gave you intelligence for a reason. Don’t sacrifice it for brainless literalism. Jack T. Chick is an evil, lying bastard. He misrepresents Catholicism, he lies about Mormonism, Buddhism, Judaism. He spreads the popular-but-bullshit Rapture myth. Anyone who spreads Jack T. Chick’s gospel is doing the work of Satan. God is not a hateful and demanding diety who expects you to dance to a certain tune or he’ll throw you into Hell. And if he is, then he’s a monster, and doesn’t deserve to be worshipped. H4E’s “god” is evil, capricious and hateful. If that’s God, then send me to Hell, because no one should be subservient to the creature she thinks the Bible describes. If you want to find your way in Christianity, don’t look to people like H4E, and certainly don’t crud up your mind with the nonsense pushed by the likes of Jack T. Chick. Check out what the Episcopal Church has to say, or the Catholic Church. Churches with an actual connection to the Christian church of the earliest eras, and religions that actually offer up a God who is worth worshipping, unlike the demon imp of H4E’s evil imagination. Kirk ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2002, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-why-are-you-telling-lies-about-your-deity/130922/148 "2002-10-09T07:24:45Z")
The Lord uses many strange vehicles to show His message. Perhaps in this case He is showing someone what NOT to do. If nothing else, as **gobear** said, the faith of those we (majority “we”) consider to be good Christians has shone through in this and other threads. And if that’s what God intended, then maybe **H4e** is doing His work … albeit in a backward, twisted, “my view isn’t popular but I’m going to shove it down your throat anyhow” way. It was **dreamer** who came to see something or other in a more hopeful light in another **H4e** thread, was it not? Ours (pretending for the moment that I’m still Catholic;)) is not to assume we know His reasoning but to try to do His will:) ---
**Author:** ![reprise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@reprise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reprise)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2002, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-why-are-you-telling-lies-about-your-deity/130922/149 "2002-10-09T08:24:14Z")
Isn’t it ironic that even the atheists posting in this thread demonstrate more of the values Christ taught - such as forgiveness, compassion, and non-judgement - than the person whose mission it is to convert us to His way. Clearly, leading by example is not one of **His4ever** ’s strong points. Her presence here has served at least one positive purpose though. It has reminded me of just how privileged we are to have so many theists within the SDMB community who live their faith rather than preaching it. And **lel** , I’m sure that many of the devout Christians within the SDMB community would be more than happy for you to email them if you are feeling rudderless in respect of your faith. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2002, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-why-are-you-telling-lies-about-your-deity/130922/150 "2002-10-09T10:06:35Z")
**reprise** , at the moment I am feeling rudderless. The reason I’m reacting more strongly than usual to His4Ever is the impression that if I went to her feeling like I do, I’d get a long list of what’s wrong with me, and, in my current condition, that might not only drive me away from Christianity, but from life itself. CJ ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2002, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-why-are-you-telling-lies-about-your-deity/130922/151 "2002-10-09T10:58:35Z")
If (somehow) we were able to convince **H4E** to return, would anyone be interested in a debate on a very narrowly-defined topic, one where liberals and fundamentalists don’t quite agree (but NOT sexuality), a debate in which, regardless of how contemptible is the opposition, we restrict ourselves to addressing the attributes of the argument and not the person(s) presenting them? Yes, yes, I know that she has so far made little or no attempt to address the reasoned arguments put forward by **Polycarp** and others, but maybe the ‘other’ posts were just too much of a distraction. Personally, I’d like to see a moderate debate that doesn’t descend into “your views make you a bigot” - however true that may be, I don’t see it as particularly productive - once we get to that point both sides have lost. What do you think? is anyone willing to try (try _again_)? And if so, does any one have a suggestion for a topic that is cause for disagreement between the various flavours of Christian, but isn’t quite so emotive and personal as the issue of sexuality? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2002, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-why-are-you-telling-lies-about-your-deity/130922/152 "2002-10-09T11:02:29Z")
I’m willing, Mange. Particularly if you are the facilitator. One topic might be scriptural inerrancy. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2002, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-why-are-you-telling-lies-about-your-deity/130922/153 "2002-10-09T11:05:21Z")
I’d like to narrow it down further than that **Lib** , if we can, maybe taking the account of one specific event (I was thinking about the Noachian flood, but that’s quite a large, tentacled topic). ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2002, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-why-are-you-telling-lies-about-your-deity/130922/154 "2002-10-09T11:08:48Z")
Feel free to ignore this in it’s entirety. Don’t even know why I bring it up. “To thine own self be true”. I’ve heard those words in the program many times. Now I find myself trying to apply them to my concept of higher power. ‘To thine own self be true’ = ‘What is it that I really believe’? It has turned out that I’m not altogether sure. I mean that it is difficult seperating my true belief from my fear and self-loathing and that which I was conditioned to believe. So I am on a quest to find out. My sponsor has me chanting a mantra of ‘I trust you, God’. At the same time, I am praying, asking God to reveal Himself to me. And trying to see God all around me in my daily life. So am I building a belief or tearing away crap from the past to reveal a belief? I don’t know. But I’m feeling OK with the process. I don’t have all the answers and don’t feel I need to have all the answers right now. Sometimes it seems foolish to think I could _ever_ have all the answers. I just have to trust that God is leading me on the right path, despite the fact it doesn’t always feel that way. I know one thing, though. **H4E** ’s trip isn’t gonna do it for me. I don’t even get the feeling that _she_ likes it all that much. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2002, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-why-are-you-telling-lies-about-your-deity/130922/155 "2002-10-09T11:20:43Z")
Spooje God go with you on your moral journey. You never know what’s around the corner. * * * Mange I’m not sure about the Noah’s flood thing, unless you want the thread routinely crashed by hand-stabbing hard atheists, incredulous about how an idiot could believe such a thing. Perhaps one of Jesus’ parables? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2002, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-why-are-you-telling-lies-about-your-deity/130922/156 "2002-10-09T11:25:59Z")
Perhaps; can you think of a suitable one? I think what would be most important is some mechanism by which pile-ons could be avoided; I can’t quite see how this could be implemented at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2002, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-why-are-you-telling-lies-about-your-deity/130922/157 "2002-10-09T11:31:34Z")
If I can throw out a suggestion, how about baptism. Catholics, Episcopalians, and, I believe many mainline Protestant denominations baptize people as infants. I know Baptist’s baptize people when they’re older, I think with the idea that they knowingly accept Christ of their own free will. In the Episcopal church, there’s a sacrament called “Confirmation” which teenagers participate in which seems to be the equivalent. As for keeping the tone civil, in addition to our illustrious moderators, I’ve noticed people tend to straighten up and back off if the OP calls them on their behaviour, especially if the OP is a respected individual like you, **Mangetout**. CJ ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2002, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-why-are-you-telling-lies-about-your-deity/130922/158 "2002-10-09T11:35:46Z")
Baptism is an excellent suggestion. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2002, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-why-are-you-telling-lies-about-your-deity/130922/159 "2002-10-09T11:40:55Z")
Indeed it is; I may learn something. OK, that’s the easy bit, now I have to see if we can get **H4E** to participate… if you’re reading this **His4Ever** , I’d be grateful if you would email me so that we can discuss the ‘ground rules’ for the thread (and also just to confirm whether you’re interested; I don’t want to start the thread and have it underway until I’m sure you’re happy to take part). ---
**Author:** ![Mars\_Horizon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mars_horizon/32/2804_2.png) [@Mars\_Horizon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mars_Horizon)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2002, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-why-are-you-telling-lies-about-your-deity/130922/160 "2002-10-09T12:47:53Z")
For the record, **H4E** - if indeed you are reading this thread still - I think one of the problems you have here is that your image is very one dimensional. You post dogmatic statements of belief, back them up with Bible verses, and say precious little else. Some indication that you are human - perhaps a recounting of your personal struggles and how your faith has sustained you? - would go a long way toward establishing you as something other than just a “fundie-post-a-matic”. I would be very interested to read a debate thread between you and a more liberal Christian (assuming of course there is such a thing as a liberal Christian 😉 ) with the provision that the tone remain civil, as specified above. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-why-are-you-telling-lies-about-your-deity/130922.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/his4ever-why-are-you-telling-lies-about-your-deity/130922.md?page=9)