# Historian: Historians have been wrong about the American right **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [April 12, 2017, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historian-historians-have-been-wrong-about-the-american-right/784287 "2017-04-12T03:18:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2017, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historian-historians-have-been-wrong-about-the-american-right/784287/61 "2017-04-14T13:37:37Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m also saying that I have no problem with criticism of a public figure for expressing bigoted views – they should be criticized. Again, that’s your view. And you are trying to narrow this down to “bigotry” but the fact is that this could be applied to any view that is considered unpopular, and thus impose career consequences on anyone who voices such views. Coming out as gay in the 1930s would probably have severe career consequences. It’s not “bigotry” that matters, it’s whether it’s unpopular or not. ---
**Author:** ![phreak9](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/45deac/32.png) [@phreak9](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phreak9)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2017, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historian-historians-have-been-wrong-about-the-american-right/784287/62 "2017-04-14T13:39:58Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > Eich also was not fired. He stepped down. > > Davis was not fired either. So affect counts for nothing? Seriously? Lost Miss America, lost job nope doesnt count. WTF? get real ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2017, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historian-historians-have-been-wrong-about-the-american-right/784287/63 "2017-04-14T13:40:17Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Again, that’s your view. And you are trying to narrow this down to “bigotry” but the fact is that this could be applied to any view that is considered unpopular, and thus impose career consequences on anyone who voices such views. Certainly. This is a consequence of free speech and a free economy. What are you suggesting should (or even could) be changed? > [@](#): > > Coming out as gay in the 1930s would probably have severe career consequences. It’s not “bigotry” that matters, it’s whether it’s unpopular or not. Yes, it’s “bigotry” that matters. Right and wrong exist – criticizing someone for being gay is wrong (and discrimination is obviously especially wrong); criticizing someone for advocating for discrimination is not wrong. Being anti-Nazi is not the same as being a Nazi. Intolerance and bigotry can and should be criticized. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2017, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historian-historians-have-been-wrong-about-the-american-right/784287/64 "2017-04-14T13:41:27Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If you’re going to say unsupported things (like “anyone” who says something anti-SSM is fired), and then weird, cryptic dodging posts like this one, then no, your position will remain indecipherable. > > If you’d like to speak plainly and actually discuss the issue, feel free. Not that I agree with **phreak9** ’s list of putative facts, but his position is pretty clear to me. He lives in an area where the political monoculture is such that witchhunts appear to be regular occurrences. And where ordinary citizens feel their right to free speech is stifled by the powerful groupthink surrounding them. He further believes that this is a bad thing, even while he has some overlap with the witchhunters about which things are undesirable / deplorable. It amounts to a defense of the idea “I disagree with your statements but I’ll defend to the death your right to say them.” As a Progressive who lived for 20 years in a Baptist / Rightist monoculture in the Midwest I see his point and I feel his pain. Despite believing (as he says he does) that his surrounding monoculture is better than the other common monoculture in this country. Bottom line: monoculture is bad. It’s a worse class of error than backing the wrong philosophy. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2017, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historian-historians-have-been-wrong-about-the-american-right/784287/65 "2017-04-14T13:42:01Z")
> [@phreak9](#): > > So affect counts for nothing? Seriously? Lost Miss America, lost job > nope doesnt count. > > WTF? > > get real Miss USA. No where nearly as prestigious as Miss America. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2017, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historian-historians-have-been-wrong-about-the-american-right/784287/66 "2017-04-14T13:43:50Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Not that I agree with **phreak9** ’s list of putative facts, but his position is pretty clear to me. > > He lives in an area where the political monoculture is such that witchhunts appear to be regular occurrences. And where ordinary citizens feel their right to free speech is stifled by the powerful groupthink surrounding them. > > He further believes that this is a bad thing, even while he has some overlap with the witchhunters about which things are undesirable / deplorable. > > It amounts to a defense of the idea “I disagree with your statements but I’ll defend to the death your right to say them.” > As a Progressive who lived for 20 years in a Baptist / Rightist monoculture in the Midwest I see his point and I feel his pain. Despite believing (as he says he does) that his surrounding monoculture is better than the other common monoculture in this country. I strongly agree with the sentiment “I disagree with your statements but I’ll defend to the death your right to say them.” Everyone has the right to publicly state their views. And everyone has the right to criticize others for stating views they disagree with. What have I said that conflicts with any of this? ---
**Author:** ![phreak9](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/45deac/32.png) [@phreak9](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phreak9)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2017, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historian-historians-have-been-wrong-about-the-american-right/784287/67 "2017-04-14T13:47:28Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Not that I agree with **phreak9** ’s list of putative facts, but his position is pretty clear to me. > > He lives in an area where the political monoculture is such that witchhunts appear to be regular occurrences. And where ordinary citizens feel their right to free speech is stifled by the powerful groupthink surrounding them. > > He further believes that this is a bad thing, even while he has some overlap with the witchhunters about which things are undesirable / deplorable. > > It amounts to a defense of the idea “I disagree with your statements but I’ll defend to the death your right to say them.” > As a Progressive who lived for 20 years in a Baptist / Rightist monoculture in the Midwest I see his point and I feel his pain. Despite believing (as he says he does) that his surrounding monoculture is better than the other common monoculture in this country. > Bottom line: monoculture is bad. It’s a worse class of error than backing the wrong philosophy. I woulda said BOOM! SCIENCE BITCH! and threw a buncha psychology and science books down in front of the libs and conservatives and made them read them. But yeah what you said was ok too. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2017, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historian-historians-have-been-wrong-about-the-american-right/784287/68 "2017-04-14T13:48:54Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Yes, it’s “bigotry” that matters. Right and wrong exist – criticizing someone for being gay is wrong (and discrimination is obviously especially wrong); criticizing someone for advocating for discrimination is not wrong. > > Being anti-Nazi is not the same as being a Nazi. Intolerance and bigotry can and should be criticized. You’re missing the point again. Being “bigoted” in 2017 and being gay in the 1930s can both have career consequences because they are both _unpopular_. In that sense it does not matter whether something is “bigoted” or not - all it has to be is \*unpopular \*in order to have career consequences. The same “Free speech and the economy work together to punish the bigoted” principle that you highlight, worked just as well in the 1930s to punish the gays. By the way, I’m glad you say “Intolerance should be criticized” - a political leftist recently wrote [In Praise of Intolerance](http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2017/03/tolerance_isn_t_the_goal_truth_is.html). ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2017, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historian-historians-have-been-wrong-about-the-american-right/784287/69 "2017-04-14T13:50:39Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I strongly agree with the sentiment “I disagree with your statements but I’ll defend to the death your right to say them.” > > Everyone has the right to publicly state their views. And everyone has the right to criticize others for stating views they disagree with. > > What have I said that conflicts with any of this? So, if conservatives worked together to pressure a pro-SSM CEO into resigning, or a Miss USA pageant decided not to award the crown to a contestant for professing pro-SSM views, you’d be OK with that - “Everyone has the right to criticize others for stating views they disagree with?” ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2017, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historian-historians-have-been-wrong-about-the-american-right/784287/70 "2017-04-14T13:51:55Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > You’re missing the point again. Being “bigoted” in 2017 and being gay in the 1930s can both have career consequences because they are both _unpopular_. In that sense it does not matter whether something is “bigoted” or not - all it has to be is \*unpopular \*in order to have career consequences. The same “Free speech and the economy work together to punish the bigoted” principle that you highlight, worked just as well in the 1930s to punish the gays. I’m not missing the point – I understand that, right now, anti-gay bigotry is unpopular… I’m saying _that’s a good thing_. It’s _very good_ when anti-gay bigotry is unpopular, or white supremacism is unpopular, or pro-pedophilia stances are unpopular – terrible philosophies with track records of hurting lots of people _should be unpopular_. > [@](#): > > By the way, I’m glad you say “Intolerance should be criticized” - a political leftist recently wrote [In Praise of Intolerance](http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2017/03/tolerance_isn_t_the_goal_truth_is.html). This gentleman appears to be using “intolerance” in a different way than I am. ---
**Author:** ![phreak9](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/45deac/32.png) [@phreak9](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phreak9)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2017, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historian-historians-have-been-wrong-about-the-american-right/784287/71 "2017-04-14T13:53:15Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > You’re missing the point again. Being “bigoted” in 2017 and being gay in the 1930s can both have career consequences because they are both _unpopular_. In that sense it does not matter whether something is “bigoted” or not - all it has to be is \*unpopular \*in order to have career consequences. The same “Free speech and the economy work together to punish the bigoted” principle that you highlight, worked just as well in the 1930s to punish the gays. > By the way, I’m glad you say “Intolerance should be criticized” - a political leftist recently wrote [In Praise of Intolerance](http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2017/03/tolerance_isn_t_the_goal_truth_is.html). He gets 2 years to figure it out. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2017, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historian-historians-have-been-wrong-about-the-american-right/784287/72 "2017-04-14T13:53:59Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > So, if conservatives worked together to pressure a pro-SSM CEO into resigning, or a Miss USA pageant decided not to award the crown to a contestant for professing pro-SSM views, you’d be OK with that - “Everyone has the right to criticize others for stating views they disagree with?” I’d certainly be legally okay with it – but morally opposed. It’s not the tactic that’s wrong – this tactic can be used for good or for evil. Promoting discrimination is _always wrong_, no matter what tactic is used. Opposing discrimination is always okay (when peaceful, anyway), no matter what tactic is used. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2017, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historian-historians-have-been-wrong-about-the-american-right/784287/73 "2017-04-14T13:59:25Z")
Got it, I understand, thanks. My misunderstanding then. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2017, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historian-historians-have-been-wrong-about-the-american-right/784287/74 "2017-04-14T14:04:29Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Got it, I understand, thanks. My misunderstanding then. Great! No problem. Do you disagree with any of my assertions or opinions? ---
**Author:** ![phreak9](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/45deac/32.png) [@phreak9](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phreak9)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2017, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historian-historians-have-been-wrong-about-the-american-right/784287/75 "2017-04-14T14:05:01Z")
twitter shadow ban of conservatives has 50-80 pages of twitter accounts of mostly conservatives being shadow banned on twitter. Includes Joe Rogan! DAMN COMMIES! Twitter being like a 1950’s newspaper slighting its less desirable customers that just happen to be conservatives [https://www.dangerandplay.com/2017/03/14/twitters-shadow-ban-to-lead-to-shareholder-lawsuits/](https://www.dangerandplay.com/2017/03/14/twitters-shadow-ban-to-lead-to-shareholder-lawsuits/) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2017, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historian-historians-have-been-wrong-about-the-american-right/784287/76 "2017-04-14T14:09:31Z")
> [@phreak9](#): > > twitter shadow ban of conservatives has 50-80 pages of twitter accounts of mostly conservatives being shadow banned on twitter. Includes Joe Rogan! > > DAMN COMMIES! > > Twitter being like a 1950’s newspaper slighting its less desirable customers that just happen to be conservatives > > [https://www.dangerandplay.com/2017/03/14/twitters-shadow-ban-to-lead-to-shareholder-lawsuits/](https://www.dangerandplay.com/2017/03/14/twitters-shadow-ban-to-lead-to-shareholder-lawsuits/) Your cite is one guy saying that he thinks he was “shadow banned”. What does this have to do with the rest of what you wrote? ---
**Author:** ![phreak9](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/45deac/32.png) [@phreak9](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phreak9)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2017, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historian-historians-have-been-wrong-about-the-american-right/784287/77 "2017-04-14T14:21:20Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Great! No problem. > > Do you disagree with any of my assertions or opinions? you need to reread the entire thread. some things went way way over your head. dont respond. go back and read it until you get it. read it all 3x if you have to then come back and say “Sorry, I get it now” but only after you actually get it. one thing you may be missing is 1930’s person ‘my religions says gay is a sin so you are fired’ 2014 person ‘my left wing beliefs say you’re a bigot so you are fired on account of your religious beliefs’ No interjection of science, just opinions and beliefs that shift a little each year If anything youd worry that the mozilla CEO would slight gays on mozilla somehow or employees and yet you have twitter FOR OVER A YEAR slighting conservatives or anyone deemed a conservative! DO YOU SEEE!~ Outrage for mozilla anti gay guy but no repricussions for anti conservative twitter! THE LEFT HAS GONE MAD! or blind. The left has gone blind. And if you see it you are automatically a racist homophobic bigot, even if you’re a liberal yourself. Obama was in 2 wars and killed tons of kids and innocents with drone bombs. meh Trump bombs some shit. OUTRAGE AND FEAR! Trump said grab her by the pussy? OUTRAGE! Michael Moore and Tom Morello are outraged! Chuck Berry dies and he video taped women and kids naked in the bathroom? meh, libs like Michael Moore and Tom Morello dont care, he was an iconic musician ---
**Author:** ![phreak9](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/45deac/32.png) [@phreak9](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phreak9)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2017, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historian-historians-have-been-wrong-about-the-american-right/784287/78 "2017-04-14T14:22:20Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Your cite is one guy saying that he thinks he was “shadow banned”. What does this have to do with the rest of what you wrote? wikileaks has 82 pages of twitter handles i think. look it up ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2017, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historian-historians-have-been-wrong-about-the-american-right/784287/79 "2017-04-14T14:27:14Z")
> [@phreak9](#): > > you need to reread the entire thread. some things went way way over your head. dont respond. go back and read it until you get it. > > read it all 3x if you have to then come back and say “Sorry, I get it now” but only after you actually get it. > > one thing you may be missing is > > 1930’s person ‘my religions says gay is a sin so you are fired’ > > 2014 person ‘my left wing beliefs say you’re a bigot so you are fired on account of your religious beliefs’ > > No interjection of science, just opinions and beliefs that shift a little each year > > If anything youd worry that the mozilla CEO would slight gays on mozilla somehow or employees and yet you have twitter FOR OVER A YEAR slighting conservatives or anyone deemed a conservative! DO YOU SEEE!~ > > Outrage for mozilla anti gay guy but no repricussions for anti conservative twitter! > > THE LEFT HAS GONE MAD! or blind. The left has gone blind. And if you see it you are automatically a racist homophobic bigot, even if you’re a liberal yourself. > > Obama was in 2 wars and killed tons of kids and innocents with drone bombs. meh > Trump bombs some shit. OUTRAGE AND FEAR! > Trump said grab her by the pussy? OUTRAGE! Michael Moore and Tom Morello are outraged! > Chuck Berry dies and he video taped women and kids naked in the bathroom? meh, libs like Michael Moore and Tom Morello dont care, he was an iconic musician None of this seems to have any relation to my posts. Let me know if you actually want to respond to anything I posted. You might have to re-read my posts – maybe up to “3x”. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2017, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historian-historians-have-been-wrong-about-the-american-right/784287/80 "2017-04-14T14:28:37Z")
> [@phreak9](#): > > wikileaks has 82 pages of twitter handles i think. look it up How would a list of twitter handles add to this discussion? I could list a bunch of twitter handles, but it would shed no light on whether they were “shadow banned”, and if so, why. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historian-historians-have-been-wrong-about-the-american-right/784287.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historian-historians-have-been-wrong-about-the-american-right/784287.md?page=5)