# Historians & doctors: your take on the Spanish flu, Wilson & the Treaty of Versailles **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 25, 2007, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historians-doctors-your-take-on-the-spanish-flu-wilson-the-treaty-of-versailles/424014 "2007-10-25T19:18:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2007, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historians-doctors-your-take-on-the-spanish-flu-wilson-the-treaty-of-versailles/424014/21 "2007-10-28T04:42:37Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] He believed that the Kaiser and the military which ran Germany did not truly represent the German people. He felt that only a democratic republican government would be representative and able to negotiate a treaty that would be acceptable to the Germans. [/QUOTE] I thought there was a military revolt and the Kaiser fled before negotiations became formal. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2007, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historians-doctors-your-take-on-the-spanish-flu-wilson-the-treaty-of-versailles/424014/22 "2007-10-28T08:31:28Z")
> [@](#): > > I thought there was a military revolt and the Kaiser fled before negotiations became formal. Yes, that’s what I was saying. Sorry if I wasn’t clear. The people who actually surrendered were Friedrich Ebert and Matthias Erzberger - two people who had nothing to do with starting or running the war. Wilson should have made Wilhelm and Hindenburg and Ludendorff and Falkenhayn publicly sign the surrender and assume the weight of defeat. Such an acknowledgement that the military had led Germany into the war and then into defeat would have had a salubrious effect on German politics in the postwar years. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2007, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historians-doctors-your-take-on-the-spanish-flu-wilson-the-treaty-of-versailles/424014/23 "2007-10-28T12:40:12Z")
Since we’re laying out what a total doob Wilson was here, might as well add that the peacful, democratic paradise he demanded was for whites only. The only Black US troops sent to Europe were war-only volunteer units: the “Colored” regulars stayed in the Philippines because everyone understood they’d do best there as a “tropical sub-species.” And the Filippinos themselves or other people like those Vietnamese slave laborers who were hauled away to defend _liberté, égalité, fraternité_, and had ID numbers painted on their backs in acid? Fuck 'em. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2007, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historians-doctors-your-take-on-the-spanish-flu-wilson-the-treaty-of-versailles/424014/24 "2007-10-28T13:15:20Z")
[QUOTE=villa] Germany launched a war of aggression… [/QUOTE] I don’t think that this is a fair statement. Germany gave support to its ally, Austria-Hungary, much as Russia gave support to Serbia. Had not Russia egged on Serbia against AH, it is doubtful that hostilities would have spread outside the Balkans. It should be noted that Russian mobilization preceded the German declaration of war. Personally, I don’t think that were any “good guys” in that war. Certainly not to any extent such that one side can be neatly labelled as the aggressors. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2007, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historians-doctors-your-take-on-the-spanish-flu-wilson-the-treaty-of-versailles/424014/25 "2007-10-28T13:58:31Z")
[QUOTE=Fuji] I don’t think that this is a fair statement. Germany gave support to its ally, Austria-Hungary, much as Russia gave support to Serbia. Had not Russia egged on Serbia against AH, it is doubtful that hostilities would have spread outside the Balkans. It should be noted that Russian mobilization preceded the German declaration of war. Personally, I don’t think that were any “good guys” in that war. Certainly not to any extent such that one side can be neatly labelled as the aggressors. [/QUOTE] Russian mobilization preceded the declaration of war because had they waited until afterwards there would have been no Russian army. It takes a while to assemble in a country that big. More importantly, where were the battles fought? The Somme, Ypres, Mons, Verdun etc weren’t in Germany. I’ll accept the blame for starting the war can be spread, but Germany was spoiling for a fight, and once it got one, rolled happily into Belgium/France. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2007, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historians-doctors-your-take-on-the-spanish-flu-wilson-the-treaty-of-versailles/424014/26 "2007-10-28T14:25:55Z")
[QUOTE=villa] Russian mobilization preceded the declaration of war because had they waited until afterwards there would have been no Russian army. It takes a while to assemble in a country that big. [/QUOTE] Oh, I understand the constraints that mass mobilizations placed upon the dilpomatic flexibility of all the powers. IIRC, that was one of the justifications that Germany presented to the UK for its violation of Belgian territory - essentially “the war plans made us do it”. > [@](#): > > More importantly, where were the battles fought? The Somme, Ypres, Mons, Verdun etc weren’t in Germany. \*\*\* cough \*\*\* Tannenberg \*\*\* cough \*\*\* Moreover, Germany had much of their eastern lands overrun by the Russians, while the Austrians lost Galicia, for over a year. Also, don’t forget that while the Germans went through Belgium, the French were driving into Alsace-Lorraine, also German territory at the time. > [@](#): > > I’ll accept the blame for starting the war can be spread, but Germany was spoiling for a fight, and once it got one, rolled happily into Belgium/France. I think pretty much _all_ the European powers were spoiling for a fight in 1914 (with the possible exception of the UK). ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2007, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historians-doctors-your-take-on-the-spanish-flu-wilson-the-treaty-of-versailles/424014/27 "2007-10-28T17:37:41Z")
Yes Tannenberg was on German soil, and A-L was (just) German by then. But… the Russians weren’t present at Versailles. The settlement at Versailles was the response of the Western part of the Triple Entente to the Germans. And when the Germans had fought a four year war on the territory of one member of that alliance, without its home land being sullied, the imposition of reparations seems understandable, if not necessarily smart when looking with hindsight. And yes, there is plenty of blame to go round. But take Prussian militarism out of the equation and modern Europe looks very different. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2007, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historians-doctors-your-take-on-the-spanish-flu-wilson-the-treaty-of-versailles/424014/28 "2007-10-28T17:43:44Z")
[QUOTE=villa] Yes Tannenberg was on German soil, and A-L was (just) German by then. But… the Russians weren’t present at Versailles. The settlement at Versailles was the response of the Western part of the Triple Entente to the Germans. And when the Germans had fought a four year war on the territory of one member of that alliance, without its home land being sullied, the imposition of reparations seems understandable, if not necessarily smart when looking with hindsight. And yes, there is plenty of blame to go round. But take Prussian militarism out of the equation and modern Europe looks very different. [/QUOTE] I agree with your points. I still think, however, that Versailles (and St.Germain, etc.) were unduly punitive. But you’re definitely right about Russia - their exclusion from the peace process was probably the second biggest blunder of the immediate post-war period (after the peace treaties themselves). Just like Versailles fed Hitler’s paranoia and resentment, the post-war bungling of Allied-Russian relations fed Stalin’s as well. ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2007, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historians-doctors-your-take-on-the-spanish-flu-wilson-the-treaty-of-versailles/424014/29 "2007-10-28T18:28:39Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] But Danzig and the Polish Corridor had been continously part of Germany or Prussia since the 18th century and had been inhabited by Germans since the sixteenth century. The problem was that the area where the Poles lived was inland from the Baltic coast. But the delegates at Versailles felt that Poland needed a port and access to the sea to be a viable country. So they gave Poland the port of Danzig and a strip of land to connect it with the rest of Poland. But the people actually living there all considered themselves Germans. [/QUOTE] I shouldn’t have said “Polish Corridor”; I was thinking of the areas transferred from Germany to Poland in their entirety, especially the province of Posen/Poznan. The “Corridor” properly refers only to the northern part of the cession, along the Baltic, which separated East Prussia from the rest of Germany. Even within the Corridor itself, however, _if one excludes the Free City of Danzig_, it appears that Poles were a majority–[Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Corridor) and [Britannica](http://concise.britannica.com/ebc/article-9375545/Polish-Corridor) both say so. Granted, the “free city of Danzig” was almost entirely German, and the Germans had a legitimate gripe when it was separated from Germany and made independent. But, stuff happens when you lose a war. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2007, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historians-doctors-your-take-on-the-spanish-flu-wilson-the-treaty-of-versailles/424014/30 "2007-10-29T04:51:37Z")
[QUOTE=Fuji] I don’t think that this is a fair statement. Germany gave support to its ally, Austria-Hungary, much as Russia gave support to Serbia. Had not Russia egged on Serbia against AH, it is doubtful that hostilities would have spread outside the Balkans. It should be noted that Russian mobilization preceded the German declaration of war. Personally, I don’t think that were any “good guys” in that war. Certainly not to any extent such that one side can be neatly labelled as the aggressors. [/QUOTE] And it was Austria-Hungary who started the war-NOT Germany. WWI was a hell of a lot more complicated than WWII. There weren’t as clear cut good guys and bad guys. As a friend of mine pointed out, it was a 19th century war, fought with 20th century technology. The Russians weren’t innocent, nor the French. The Kaiser was more ignorant than evil. He certainly wasn’t Hitler. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2007, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historians-doctors-your-take-on-the-spanish-flu-wilson-the-treaty-of-versailles/424014/31 "2007-10-29T05:20:28Z")
I recalled that the Polish Corridor was mostly German but it appears I was wrong. According to Wikipedia, the population of the corridor was 922,476 of whom 175,771 were German (just over 19%). On the discussion page for that article, some people are disputing these figures, claiming that Germans were a majority. But these arguments appear to cherry pick places and dates to arrive at these figures. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historians-doctors-your-take-on-the-spanish-flu-wilson-the-treaty-of-versailles/424014/32 "2007-10-30T10:57:53Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] I recalled that the Polish Corridor was mostly German but it appears I was wrong. According to Wikipedia, the population of the corridor was 922,476 of whom 175,771 were German (just over 19%). On the discussion page for that article, some people are disputing these figures, claiming that Germans were a majority. But these arguments appear to cherry pick places and dates to arrive at these figures. [/QUOTE] I think the problem was that Poland had been split up for so long, people had comingled and it was near impossible to find the right borders. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historians-doctors-your-take-on-the-spanish-flu-wilson-the-treaty-of-versailles/424014.md?page=1)