# Historic re-enactors dressing up as Nazis at a private party. Is that kosher? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 18, 2014, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historic-re-enactors-dressing-up-as-nazis-at-a-private-party-is-that-kosher/683992 "2014-03-18T11:38:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historic-re-enactors-dressing-up-as-nazis-at-a-private-party-is-that-kosher/683992/241 "2014-03-21T11:55:32Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > Yeah, I’m not saying that the organizer is a neo-Nazi at all. Nor would I be inferring, implying, or anything of the sort. Of course not. Scott [Steben, the organizer of this event, just happens to have an SS tattoo on his arm.](http://blogs.citypages.com/food/2014/03/scott_steben_nazi_dinner_organizer.php)As most re-enactors who aren’t neo-Nazis do. It just makes it more authenticky. While this changes nothing about my opinion of the re-enactment group (since I already assumed a parcel of which were either open or closet sympathizers in any event), it does bring the restaurant owner in a new light - up till now I could see how he could have bought into the whole recreating history argument, particularly when there’s a check attached… but I shouldn’t think a man with a \*Totenkopf \*and twin lightning tattoo (who also seems to tool around in his “civilian” life with army-style \*Totenkopf \*collar insignias, a prominent _E-kreuz_ on his heart and a \*Reichsadler \*on the other pocket) would be very cautious and covert about their leanings. And since he’s the head honcho of the weekend Nazi group, he’s presumably the one who brokered the deal with the _Gasthaus_. I’m also really, really starting to doubt whether it was by sheer calendar coincidence and happenstance the event took place on MLK day of all dates. It _could_ all be ironic/deliberate shock of course. I knew a flamboyant gay guy who had a large \*Totenkopf \*badge on his knapsack (along with a pink triangle) just to fuck with people’s minds. But. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historic-re-enactors-dressing-up-as-nazis-at-a-private-party-is-that-kosher/683992/242 "2014-03-21T11:58:33Z")
Also, I’m chuckling at this quote of his : > [@](#): > > All our members value education, equal rights and the complex relationship between good versus evil. It’s not a complex relationship. It’s a clear and very basic \> relationship. There’s no shade of gray to the fucking _Nazis_, you clod ! They were as black as it gets. They \*celebrated \*the fact that they were as black as it gets. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historic-re-enactors-dressing-up-as-nazis-at-a-private-party-is-that-kosher/683992/243 "2014-03-21T12:16:04Z")
It’s almost a cliche at this point. I mean, how do you tell the good guys from the bad guys? The bad guys are the ones saying there’s no such thing as good guys and bad guys. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historic-re-enactors-dressing-up-as-nazis-at-a-private-party-is-that-kosher/683992/244 "2014-03-21T12:21:05Z")
Shouldn’t the waitstaff wear [this?](http://p2.la-img.com/1022/19079/6470758_1_l.jpg) I haven’t read any posts here that explain how an adult whose mind has a functioning empathy center can [know what the Nazis did](http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/german/einsatzgruppen/esg/images2/g61.jpg) and stand to dress like one. Id rather wear phlegm. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historic-re-enactors-dressing-up-as-nazis-at-a-private-party-is-that-kosher/683992/245 "2014-03-21T12:41:41Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Would you also say that WW2 German re-enacters are no more likely to be neo-Nazis than the general population? I’ve no idea. The rates of neo-Nazism are almost certainly higher among German-portraying re-enactors than U.S., British, or Soviet ones, but given that the general population includes neo-Nazi groups like National Socialist Movement, American Nazi Party, and The Creativity Movement, I don’t know that the re-enactor rate would exceed the general population rate. > [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > There are historical reenactors here on the Board, for the Revolutionary and Civil wars. **Elendil’s Heir** springs to mind. Dressing up as godless Brits or Johnny Rebs for something like that doesn’t bother me. The Nazis seem to be in a whole other category though. I’m not even sure I’ve heard of any WWII reenactments. Do those even exist? They exist, but are much less prevalent than Civil or Revolutionary War re-enactments. See the [WW2HRS](http://www.worldwartwohrs.org) for more information. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historic-re-enactors-dressing-up-as-nazis-at-a-private-party-is-that-kosher/683992/246 "2014-03-21T12:42:28Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > 1. Wearing Nazi-era German uniforms to a private dinner isn’t morally wrong, because it hurts no one. You know who else wore Nazi-era German uniforms to private dinners?..😉 I understand the desire to resist from reactively calling anyone with Nazi insignia, memorabilia, hobby and fetish as an outright Nazi. We ought to give people the benefit of the doubt until they prove themselves to be neo-Nazi sympathizers of one type or another. Right? But given the preponderence of evidence when we do find such individuals with a penchant for throwing dinner parties with Nazi themes, how often are we really mistaken? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historic-re-enactors-dressing-up-as-nazis-at-a-private-party-is-that-kosher/683992/247 "2014-03-21T12:49:19Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > You know who else wore Nazi-era German uniforms to private dinners?..😉 > > I understand the desire to resist from reactively calling anyone with Nazi insignia, memorabilia, hobby and fetish as an outright Nazi. We ought to give people the benefit of the doubt until they prove themselves to be neo-Nazi sympathizers of one type or another. Right? Right. > [@](#): > > But given the preponderence of evidence when we do find such individuals with a penchant for throwing dinner parties with Nazi themes, how often are we really mistaken? I’m not familiar with other cases like this one, so I don’t know how often you’re mistaken about them. I am keenly interested in how Steben’s unit (assuming he’s in one, and not just a hanger-on who books the restaurant) reacts, and whether the WW2HRS will react if his unit doesn’t boot him. This is an opportunity to demonstrate their claimed intolerance of neo-Nazis in their midst, or be shown to be liars. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historic-re-enactors-dressing-up-as-nazis-at-a-private-party-is-that-kosher/683992/248 "2014-03-21T12:50:33Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > You know who else wore Nazi-era German uniforms to private dinners?..😉 Prince Harry? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historic-re-enactors-dressing-up-as-nazis-at-a-private-party-is-that-kosher/683992/249 "2014-03-21T18:02:25Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > It’s almost a cliche at this point. I mean, how do you tell the good guys from the bad guys? [The bad guys have skulls on their hats?](http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hn1VxaMEjRU) ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historic-re-enactors-dressing-up-as-nazis-at-a-private-party-is-that-kosher/683992/250 "2014-03-21T20:25:27Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > It’s almost a cliche at this point. I mean, how do you tell the good guys from the bad guys? The bad guys are the ones saying there’s no such thing as good guys and bad guys. Sorry, but that’s idiotic. The Sopranos wouldn’t last 7 seasons if humanity was so doggedly simplistic. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historic-re-enactors-dressing-up-as-nazis-at-a-private-party-is-that-kosher/683992/251 "2014-03-21T20:58:17Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Um… so ? So if people who want to re-enact WWII as Allies want to fight other people, they can fight people who weren’t outright Nazis, was my _only_ point. I’m _not_ saying the ordinary Wermacht had clean hands (who did) but they’re a bit less tainted, and their iconography is a little less objectionable. That’s my point. But you’re right that the SS weren’t _all_ Nazis, correction noted. ---
**Author:** ![WheatCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/258eb7/32.png) [@WheatCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WheatCat)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2014, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historic-re-enactors-dressing-up-as-nazis-at-a-private-party-is-that-kosher/683992/252 "2014-03-22T21:28:27Z")
> [@Anondragon2012](#): > > By the way…Waffen SS were normal soldiers part of German military and I see nothing with portraying them aswell! This distortion distortion needs to be addressed. All Waffen SS were volunteers, and very strongly tended to be drawn from those elements of society most fanatically pro-Nazi. The worst division-sized unit of the organization was probably _Totenkopf_, which was originally recruited from concentration camp personnel. Theodore Eicke, its earliest commander, was chosen by _Himmler himself_ as an early commandant of Dachau and later a chief inspector of the entire concentration camp system. Another grotesque example of the kind of people the SS was willing to put in leadership roles is found in the person of Dr. Oberstfuhrer Oskar Dirlewanger, a literal child molester (and confined in a concentration camp as a result) who was sprung not by some mistake, but by _Himmler himself_. Dirlewanger was able to convince Himmler that his perversions would be repressed as long as he was on active duty, and that his outstanding WWI military record showed that he could be useful. He became a specialist in anti-partisan warfare on the Eastern Front, where he and his unit built an unparalleled reputation for brutality and massacre. Any organization whose chief is willing to recruit such demonic figures condemns itself. Credit is due all those, like me, who view Nazism and its attendant organization as expressions of pure evil. Condemnation is due all those who attempt to trivialize or downplay that evil in any way. That includes dressing up like Nazis and playing like Nazis as a hobby. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2014, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historic-re-enactors-dressing-up-as-nazis-at-a-private-party-is-that-kosher/683992/253 "2014-03-22T22:27:54Z")
> [@WheatCat](#): > > This distortion distortion needs to be addressed. I did some addressing of this in [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17212962&postcount=206) post. > [@WheatCat](#): > > All Waffen SS were volunteers, and very strongly tended to be drawn from those elements of society most fanatically pro-Nazi. This isn’t true though. I do not intend the slightest iota of sympathy for the murderous, criminal organization that was the SS by the use of the word misunderstood, but the SS is one of the most misunderstood organizations of the last century. The idea that the Waffen SS were simply soldiers unassociated with the Holocaust and what was happening at the concentration and extermination camps is pure hogwash. However, the idea the Waffen SS were all volunteers and fit the archetypical Aryan mold of tall, blue eyed and blonde haired is equally false. This characterization was true of the SS in its early days, but during the war it ballooned in size to nearly 1,000,000 men. The reason for this was Himmler’s desire to expand the size of his personal empire within the Third Reich, and he was successful in having control of most foreign formations operating within the German military handed over to the SS. While the elite SS divisions remained largely volunteer and fit the Aryan mold, they too took conscripts. Most of the Waffen SS divisions were neither Aryan nor particularly pro-Nazi; ironically the Waffen SS included substantial numbers of Slavs and others deemed untermensch by Nazi ideology. There is a list of Waffen SS divisions with their ethnic origin [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS_divisions) and a breakdown of the estimated 325,000-500,000 non-ethnic German volunteers and conscripts who served in the Waffen-SS [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS_foreign_volunteers_and_conscripts#List_by_nation_and_unit). ---
**Author:** ![WheatCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/258eb7/32.png) [@WheatCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WheatCat)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2014, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historic-re-enactors-dressing-up-as-nazis-at-a-private-party-is-that-kosher/683992/254 "2014-03-22T23:50:38Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > I did some addressing of this in [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17212962&postcount=206) post. > > This isn’t true though. I do not intend the slightest iota of sympathy for the murderous, criminal organization that was the SS by the use of the word misunderstood, but the SS is one of the most misunderstood organizations of the last century. The idea that the Waffen SS were simply soldiers unassociated with the Holocaust and what was happening at the concentration and extermination camps is pure hogwash. However, the idea the Waffen SS were all volunteers and fit the archetypical Aryan mold of tall, blue eyed and blonde haired is equally false. This characterization was true of the SS in its early days, but during the war it ballooned in size to nearly 1,000,000 men. The reason for this was Himmler’s desire to expand the size of his personal empire within the Third Reich, and he was successful in having control of most foreign formations operating within the German military handed over to the SS. While the elite SS divisions remained largely volunteer and fit the Aryan mold, they too took conscripts. Most of the Waffen SS divisions were neither Aryan nor particularly pro-Nazi; ironically the Waffen SS included substantial numbers of Slavs and others deemed untermensch by Nazi ideology. There is a list of Waffen SS divisions with their ethnic origin [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS_divisions) and a breakdown of the estimated 325,000-500,000 non-ethnic German volunteers and conscripts who served in the Waffen-SS [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS_foreign_volunteers_and_conscripts#List_by_nation_and_unit). The post was addressed to me; sorry to have missed your contribution. I knew of the numerous foreign non-German SS units, which included the likes of Balkan Slav Muslims (cf SS Handschar). In my post I was speaking mainly of German SS units, although some others such as Wiking (recruited from non-German “Nordic” countries such as Denmark) might also have fit the Nazi fanatic mold. I was unaware that any of these included conscripts, with the desperate last 2-3 months of the war not fair to include. I must stand by what I said concerning the deserved reputation for evil of all the ethnic German SS, including the Waffen-SS. Among others Handschar in particular was I know guilty of serial atrocity, and I would be surprised if there were the rule rather than the exception, given the homicidal behavior encouraged by highest SS authority throughout the Nazi era. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2014, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historic-re-enactors-dressing-up-as-nazis-at-a-private-party-is-that-kosher/683992/255 "2014-03-23T04:18:46Z")
Not kosher. Dressing in Nazi uniform for what was a purely a social occasion, according to the OP’s link, is too close to actually espousing fascism for me to stomach. I once saw some guys dressed in WWII Wehrmacht mountain troops’ uniform at a public historical reenactment. They took great pains to say they weren’t Nazis, and did not admire Hitler, but wanted to teach the public about WWII and provide foes for the many WWII reenactors who dress up as American GI’s. That, to me, is socially acceptable, but I could never do it myself. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2014, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historic-re-enactors-dressing-up-as-nazis-at-a-private-party-is-that-kosher/683992/256 "2014-03-23T05:52:17Z")
If dressing up as Nazis is unacceptable, can they dress up as HYDRA? ---
**Author:** ![WheatCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/258eb7/32.png) [@WheatCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WheatCat)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2014, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historic-re-enactors-dressing-up-as-nazis-at-a-private-party-is-that-kosher/683992/257 "2014-03-23T14:22:38Z")
> [@WheatCat](#): > > The post was addressed to me; sorry to have missed your contribution. > > I knew of the numerous foreign non-German SS units, which included the likes of Balkan Slav Muslims (cf SS Handschar). In my post I was speaking mainly of German SS units, although some others such as Wiking (recruited from non-German “Nordic” countries such as Denmark) might also have fit the Nazi fanatic mold. I was unaware that any of these included conscripts, with the desperate last 2-3 months of the war not fair to include. > > I must stand by what I said concerning the deserved reputation for evil of all the ethnic German SS, including the Waffen-SS. Among others Handschar in particular was I know guilty of serial atrocity, and **I would be surprised if there were the rule rather than the exception** , given the homicidal behavior encouraged by highest SS authority throughout the Nazi era. The part in bold should be: “I would be surprised if they were the exception rather than the rule” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historic-re-enactors-dressing-up-as-nazis-at-a-private-party-is-that-kosher/683992/258 "2014-03-24T02:38:54Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > If there was a hobby where people re-enacted lynchings for historical purposes, would you judge the people who chose to portray the victims as morally superior to the people who chose to portray the perpetrators? Or would they all just be participants in a hobby that required two sides? Wasn’t me, but somebody just got the Straight Dope [a mention on Yo Is This Racist?](http://yoisthisracist.com/post/80281992893/if-there-was-a-hobby-where-people-re-enacted-lynchings) ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historic-re-enactors-dressing-up-as-nazis-at-a-private-party-is-that-kosher/683992/259 "2014-03-24T12:30:10Z")
On the other hand, the round-up of Japanese-Americans to interment camps in the early part of WW2 has been reenacted. With the willing participation of Japanese American citizens. Of course that was not murderous, let alone genocidal. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historic-re-enactors-dressing-up-as-nazis-at-a-private-party-is-that-kosher/683992/260 "2014-03-24T14:30:16Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > On the other hand, the round-up of Japanese-Americans to interment camps in the early part of WW2 has been reenacted. With the willing participation of Japanese American citizens. Of course that was not murderous, let alone genocidal. While neither is much fun, better an internment camp than an interment camp. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historic-re-enactors-dressing-up-as-nazis-at-a-private-party-is-that-kosher/683992.md?page=12)