# Historic re-enactors dressing up as Nazis at a private party. Is that kosher? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 18, 2014, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historic-re-enactors-dressing-up-as-nazis-at-a-private-party-is-that-kosher/683992 "2014-03-18T11:38:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historic-re-enactors-dressing-up-as-nazis-at-a-private-party-is-that-kosher/683992/121 "2014-03-19T05:37:37Z")
Absolute outrage at the semblance of Nazism is much like absolute support for it: Both are founded in emotion, and neither side cares for nuance. Don’t waste your time fellas, slash2k laid it out perfectly and it fell on deaf ears. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historic-re-enactors-dressing-up-as-nazis-at-a-private-party-is-that-kosher/683992/122 "2014-03-19T08:44:32Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > If you’re going to do reenactments, somebody has to play the other side. If everyone takes your approach and refuses to portray the Germans, then the World War II Historical Re-Enactment Society becomes “Guys in Allied uniforms standing around”. People could happily portray all the German units that weren’t Nazi-only - ordinary Wermacht without the sexy Hugo Boss stylings. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historic-re-enactors-dressing-up-as-nazis-at-a-private-party-is-that-kosher/683992/123 "2014-03-19T08:55:18Z")
Personally, as a different kind of re-enactor, I have no problem with this sort of thing if it’s in the larger context alluded to above. I wouldn’t go to it, but then I wouldn’t sign up to play SS anymore than I’d play a Confederate, or play a Boer in Boer War re-enactments (we have those). On the other hand, I have, in my time, portrayed a Viking, a Mongol, an Aztec priest and a Teutonic Knight, and none of those are completely kosher, either. So I’m a fine one to talk. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historic-re-enactors-dressing-up-as-nazis-at-a-private-party-is-that-kosher/683992/124 "2014-03-19T09:28:56Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > People could happily portray all the German units that weren’t Nazi-only - ordinary Wermacht without the sexy Hugo Boss stylings. The Wehrmacht [isn’t clean either](http://harvardpress.typepad.com/hup_publicity/2006/07/the_wehrmacht_a.html). It’s a convenient myth for many people, but it’s just that : a myth. [QUOTE=Miller] Of course, I’ve met lots of people who like to dress up as [these sorts of Stormtroopers.](http://www.501st.com/) Obviously, if you’re dressing up as Darth Vader, you’re probably not secretly endorsing a pro-destruction of Alderaan position. But, isn’t it possible that the mechanic behind some people wanting to dress up as space fascists is behind some people wanting to dress up as German fascists? Is there a difference between being inspired to dress like a Nazi by watching _Triumph of the Will_, and being inspired to dress like a Nazi by watching _Raiders of the Lost Ark_? [/QUOTE] Well, there’s the fact that Imperial Stormtroopers never killed anybody _for real_ (and only managed to “kill” one Ewok. ONE. In a running, laser-spewing battle involving mechas on one side and logs on the other. I mean, come on ! :p) ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historic-re-enactors-dressing-up-as-nazis-at-a-private-party-is-that-kosher/683992/125 "2014-03-19T10:09:48Z")
> [@buddy431](#): > > I consider myself an enlightened individual. But I also recognize that I live in a relatively enlightened society, where it is not acceptable to kill someone because they are different. But what if society had been telling me since birth that the Visigoths were the source of all of our problems, that they weren’t really humans, but rather vermin? I bet I wouldn’t be too kind to Visigoths. Does that make me a monster? Perhaps, but no more so than anyone else. Indeed. How many of your enlightened society cheered a war of agression not too recently? Utterly flimsy excuses/lies/propaganda were enough to send you flagwaving into a country of ‘towelheads’ to rip apart innocent civilians. If you keep staring at the swastika as the symbol of evil, limmited to 1940’s Germany, you are indeed sure to miss the true signs of evil. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historic-re-enactors-dressing-up-as-nazis-at-a-private-party-is-that-kosher/683992/126 "2014-03-19T10:53:11Z")
UPDATED INFORMATION: The [Minneapolis Star Tribune has an article](http://www.startribune.com/local/minneapolis/250887751.html)with rebuttals from the group and the owner. Here are what I consider to be the pertinents (snipping involved): > [@](#): > > The man behind a World War II party that featured Nazi flags and men dressed in SS uniforms said it was an exercise for actors who play historical roles at fairs and in movies, not a political statement. > “By no means do we glorify the edicts of the Third Reich,” said Scott Steben, who characterized himself as a history buff who has landed movie parts as a German soldier. “I understand the sensitivity of the subject matter and everything but it did occur and it is history.” > [@](#): > > The party was held on Martin Luther King Day, but Steben said it was the group’s annual Christmas party, which has been held in January for the last six years at Gasthof’s. The party always gets booked on a Monday because it’s the only day of the week that the restaurant is closed, he said. > [@](#): > > The Jan. 19 party drew concern from a Gasthof staff member, who was one of three working that night. The staffer shot at least five photos with his cellphone that show people milling about in German army uniforms with four Nazi banners hanging in one of the restaurant’s dining rooms. Another photo shows a black T-shirt adorned with a Swastika that the staff member was given by someone at the party. > > The staffer was fired Friday after he admitted to Gasthof’s owner Mario Pierzchalski that he took the photos and shared them with friends. > [@](#): > > Pierzchalski said he’s hosted the party for six years but won’t host it again. He defended the people who attended it, who included men dressed as Italian soldiers and one as an American soldier. > > “So now we have a lot of bad messages on our phones; they want to burn down the building,” he said. > > “We live in a free country…but from the comments I see, a lot of people they don’t see what freedom is. If I break the law, punish me. But we did this for so many years and everything was fine.” From the [WWII Re-enactment Society’s Facebook page:](https://www.facebook.com/WWIIHRS) > [@](#): > > "The WWII Historical Reenactment Society Inc. has never hosted, supported, or financed any events, or dinners at the Minneapolis based Gasthof Zur Gemutlichkeit Restaurant. The only officially sponsored WWII HRS events are listed on our website [Events - WWII HRS](http://worldwartwohrs.org/Events.htm). > > Information about our non for profit organization can be found here: [About Us - WWII HRS](http://worldwartwohrs.org/AboutUs.htm) > > Any activities by our members and member units that violate the stated bylaws and regulations of the Society are reviewed for disciplinary action up to dismissal and banning from future participation.” > > On behalf of the WWII HRS Inc. Board of Directors, > > Michael Kaczorowski > WWII HRS Inc. Vice President > WWII HRS Inc. Head of Safety and Authenticity ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historic-re-enactors-dressing-up-as-nazis-at-a-private-party-is-that-kosher/683992/127 "2014-03-19T11:01:48Z")
“We live in a free country”. Man, I hate people pulling out that one. Sure, you’re free to cater to a group dressed in vile costumes. But the rest of society is equally free to make the choice to eat elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historic-re-enactors-dressing-up-as-nazis-at-a-private-party-is-that-kosher/683992/128 "2014-03-19T11:09:26Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > “We live in a free country”. Man, I hate people pulling out that one. Sure, you’re free to cater to a group dressed in vile costumes. But the rest of society is equally free to make the choice to eat elsewhere. Man I hate apologists. “Eating somewhere else” is of course the same as threatening to burn down the building. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historic-re-enactors-dressing-up-as-nazis-at-a-private-party-is-that-kosher/683992/129 "2014-03-19T12:12:12Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > People could happily portray all the German units that weren’t Nazi-only - ordinary Wermacht without the sexy Hugo Boss stylings. And they do; I’m not expert enough to identify the uniforms in the picture, but the [re-enactment society](http://www.worldwartwohrs.org/German.htm) lists 30 German units, of which 16 appear to be regular Wehrmacht. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historic-re-enactors-dressing-up-as-nazis-at-a-private-party-is-that-kosher/683992/130 "2014-03-19T12:32:19Z")
From the [WWII Re-enactment Society (WWII HRS) by-laws:]([By-Laws - WWII HRS](http://worldwartwohrs.org/By-Laws.htm#ARTICLE) IV: UNIT RECOGNITION) > [@](#): > > 1. No flag other than the United States, and the British Commonwealth flags are ever to be saluted. The Nazi or Fascist salute is never to be used. No goose step marching by Axis troops. > 2. All non-political flags may be displayed, however only American and commonwealth flags may be flown from a pole or staff. > 3. Black SS, Brown SA, and political uniforms and Hitler Youth uniforms and any WWII German uniform that uses a swastika arm-band may not be used at any WWII HRS event. > 4. When traveling to or from any event, do not display weapons or WWII German uniforms where they may be seen by the public. Now, this wasn’t an event sponsorted by the WWII HRS, but I think those parts of etiquette from the by-laws are very telling, especially the last two parts. For those that think this is OK to do, why do you think they have those last two in their by-laws? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historic-re-enactors-dressing-up-as-nazis-at-a-private-party-is-that-kosher/683992/131 "2014-03-19T12:42:54Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > From the [WWII Re-enactment Society (WWII HRS) by-laws:]([By-Laws - WWII HRS](http://worldwartwohrs.org/By-Laws.htm#ARTICLE) IV: UNIT RECOGNITION) > Now, this wasn’t an event sponsorted by the WWII HRS, but I think those parts of etiquette from the by-laws are very telling, especially the last two parts. For those that think this is OK to do, why do you think they have those last two in their by-laws? Those all sound like good and sensible rules, that allow WW2 re-enacting to be carried out, without causing offense or giving the impression of promoting Nazism. Obviously, this is a touchy subject. If the group was marching down main street doing the fascist salute, I’d have very different feelings on the matter. Did the group(s) at the dinner party violate any of those rules? Looking at the three pictures, I see no flags flown from a pole or a staff. I see no swastika armbands. I’m no expert on uniforms, but I don’t see any black or brown ones. I’ve read no reports of salutes or goose-stepping. The event was held when the restaurant was otherwise closed, so the uniforms were not on public display. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historic-re-enactors-dressing-up-as-nazis-at-a-private-party-is-that-kosher/683992/132 "2014-03-19T12:46:44Z")
Do you really think these are a bunch of neo Nazis who have spent years pretending to be mere reenactors, so that one day the could finally hatch their real plan-- a swastika buffet in a closed restaurant? ---
**Author:** ![WheatCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/258eb7/32.png) [@WheatCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WheatCat)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historic-re-enactors-dressing-up-as-nazis-at-a-private-party-is-that-kosher/683992/133 "2014-03-19T12:59:46Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Four, actually: the Soviet Union invaded Poland and Finland in 1939. I left out the USSR because its economy was to a large extent insulated from the effects of the Great Depression, and because from the end of the Russian civil War (1922) there was never the slightest vestige of public influence on government policy. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historic-re-enactors-dressing-up-as-nazis-at-a-private-party-is-that-kosher/683992/134 "2014-03-19T13:00:10Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Do you really think these are a bunch of neo Nazis who have spent years pretending to be mere reenactors, so that one day the could finally hatch their real plan-- a swastika buffet in a closed restaurant? I think they’re just a bunch of losers who think the Nazis were cool. That said, the belief in question - that Nazis are cool - is not one that should be encouraged, lest it become mainstream. People, as you say, are pretty horrible. They’ll come for the snazzy outfits, and stay for the racial purity. I don’t want that to happen. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historic-re-enactors-dressing-up-as-nazis-at-a-private-party-is-that-kosher/683992/135 "2014-03-19T13:00:25Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Those all sound like good and sensible rules, that allow WW2 re-enacting to be carried out, without causing offense or giving the impression of promoting Nazism. Obviously, this is a touchy subject. If the group was marching down main street doing the fascist salute, I’d have very different feelings on the matter. > > Did the group(s) at the dinner party violate any of those rules? Looking at the three pictures, I see no flags flown from a pole or a staff. I see no swastika armbands. I’m no expert on uniforms, but I don’t see any black or brown ones. I’ve read no reports of salutes or goose-stepping. The event was held when the restaurant was otherwise closed, so the uniforms were not on public display. And that all went around the question. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historic-re-enactors-dressing-up-as-nazis-at-a-private-party-is-that-kosher/683992/136 "2014-03-19T13:08:03Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > They’ll come for the snazzy outfits, and stay for the racial purity. I don’t want that to happen. … you mean like Abercrombie & Fitch? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historic-re-enactors-dressing-up-as-nazis-at-a-private-party-is-that-kosher/683992/137 "2014-03-19T13:18:17Z")
> [@WheatCat](#): > > I left out the USSR because its economy was to a large extent insulated from the effects of the Great Depression, and because from the end of the Russian civil War (1922) there was never the slightest vestige of public influence on government policy. They had a crippling agricultural crisis in the early '30s, and there wasn’t any public influence to be had on policy in Germany after 1934 (abolition of parliaments), Japan after 1932 (assassination of Prime Minister Inukai, beginning of military rule), or Italy after 1926 (abolition of elections, Mussolini given title “head of government”). > [@stpauler](#): > > And that all went around the question. 😕 You asked why they had those rules, I answered: > [@](#): > > [The rules] allow WW2 re-enacting to be carried out, without causing offense or giving the impression of promoting Nazism. Again, this is a touchy subject, and it’s easy to offend when Nazi Germany is involved. The rules, I believe, seek to minimize the prospect of offending people, and to clearly establish that the WW2HRS is not pro-Nazi, or neo-Nazi. If there’s some aspect of your question that I’m missing, please elaborate. ---
**Author:** ![nevadaexile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/eb8c5e/32.png) [@nevadaexile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nevadaexile)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historic-re-enactors-dressing-up-as-nazis-at-a-private-party-is-that-kosher/683992/138 "2014-03-19T13:20:43Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Man I hate apologists. “Eating somewhere else” is of course the same as threatening to burn down the building. Ahhh…it’s not even close and it’s surprising that you would attempt to make such analogy. Chick-Fil-a’s owner made some offensive personal comments about his opinion of gays. People stopped eating there. That was an economic and personal decision, not a criminal act like committing arson. It would be a logical fallacy to equate the two. If this restaurant wants to keep the majority of its patrons returning to its business, then they might strongly consider who they allow to use their facilities and what message that they want to send. Economic times are hard and offending potential customers will only make them harder. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historic-re-enactors-dressing-up-as-nazis-at-a-private-party-is-that-kosher/683992/139 "2014-03-19T13:26:06Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > They had a crippling agricultural crisis in the early '30s, and there wasn’t any public influence to be had on policy in Germany after 1934 (abolition of parliaments), Japan after 1932 (assassination of Prime Minister Inukai, beginning of military rule), or Italy after 1926 (abolition of elections, Mussolini given title “head of government”). > > 😕 You asked why they had those rules, I answered: > > Again, this is a touchy subject, and it’s easy to offend when Nazi Germany is involved. The rules, I believe, seek to minimize the prospect of offending people, and to clearly establish that the WW2HRS is not pro-Nazi, or neo-Nazi. > > If there’s some aspect of your question that I’m missing, please elaborate. Given the by-laws and the rationale for those by-laws, would one reasonably assume that hosting a party with the vast majority dressed as Nazis and only using the Nazi flag might swim directly against the current of the rationale for those by-laws? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historic-re-enactors-dressing-up-as-nazis-at-a-private-party-is-that-kosher/683992/140 "2014-03-19T13:37:08Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > Given the by-laws and the rationale for those by-laws, would one reasonably assume that hosting a party with the vast majority dressed as Nazis and only using the Nazi flag might swim directly against the current of the rationale for those by-laws? No, not at all. The rationale, as I see it, is to prevent offense, and prevent tarnishing the society as neo-Nazi. This event was neither cause for offense (occuring as it did behind closed doors), nor did it tarnish the society as neo-Nazi (as it was in no way endorsing Nazism; there were no readings of Mein Kampf, no denunciations of Jews, no saluting the Nazi flag…just guys and gals eating sausage in costume, in private). Further, the Nazi flag is permitted (“All non-political flags may be displayed, however only American and commonwealth flags may be flown from a pole or staff”), as it was the official flag of Germany from 1935 to 1945, and thus has to be part of are-enacting German soldiers of that period. Germany military uniforms aren’t forbidden, only the black SS, brown SA, political uniforms, Hitler Youth uniforms, and uniforms with a swastika armband. Prohibiting all Nazi-era German military uniforms would preclude re-enacting World War Two. It’s rather strange to point to these rules, none of which were broken by this event, as evidence that the event was contrary to the rules. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historic-re-enactors-dressing-up-as-nazis-at-a-private-party-is-that-kosher/683992.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historic-re-enactors-dressing-up-as-nazis-at-a-private-party-is-that-kosher/683992.md?page=8)