Leading? You objected to the flags, I suspected the flags were actually immaterial to your view, and I was right. Given my suspicion, there was no point in my writing some spirited defense of the flags, when they actually had nothing to do with your opinion on this matter.
My opinion has already been given, more or less, but to expand on it:
These aren’t Nazi buffs, they are a war re-enactment group in costume*. They are at a private dinner, not marching through the streets; there is no risk of shock or trauma being inflicted on the good people of Minneapolis. Far from pushing some sort of Nazi agenda, the existence of this private event only became publicized by leaked photos. Those facts clearly establish that there’s no pro-Nazi political motive at work here, nor any harm done…so who cares?
ETA: Which isn’t to say there cannot be overlap between these groups, but they are distinct.
I’ve had two occasions in my life where I interacted with someone dressed in a Nazi uniform.
The first was in high school. A kid I was sort of friendly with dressed up for Halloween as Adolf Hitler, with a bullet hole in his forehead. Pretty clearly an anti-Nazi message, but still: why did he own a fairly accurate replica Nazi uniform? I don’t know what happened to him after high school, but I know that during the time I knew him, he wasn’t remotely racist or anti-Semitic. Just kind of a weird kid.
The second was a guy who’s a regular at a gaming convention I go to every year. I don’t know anything about him, I just share a “hey, it’s that guy,” nod with him once every Memorial Day weekend. One year he was tooling around the convention hall dressed like a Nazi officer, theatrically clutching at a briefcase. It took me a while until I twigged to what he was doing: cosplaying von Stauffenberg. Again, not exactly an endorsement of the ideas and policies of Adolf Hitler, but still.
Of course, I’ve met lots of people who like to dress up as these sorts of Stormtroopers. Obviously, if you’re dressing up as Darth Vader, you’re probably not secretly endorsing a pro-destruction of Alderaan position. But, isn’t it possible that the mechanic behind some people wanting to dress up as space fascists is behind some people wanting to dress up as German fascists? Is there a difference between being inspired to dress like a Nazi by watching Triumph of the Will, and being inspired to dress like a Nazi by watching Raiders of the Lost Ark?
I wouldn’t be remotely surprised if this group has a higher than average number of neo-Nazis and Holocaust deniers. But I also wouldn’t take membership in this group as evidence, in and of itself, of any particular political leaning. They could just be geeks, and geeks do all sorts of weird, off-putting things.
Yeah, but the quote from the OP link seems to go against your “facts”:
[QUOTE=the quote from an attendee again]
You’re not there because you believe in what Hitler stood for — you’re there to educate people about history, and a lot of that is so people don’t forget.
[/QUOTE]
So who are these people who need educating lest they forget? It can’t be the same people in the group dressed up as Nazis too, because that wouldn’t make sense. They don’t need educating.
Many if not most not all those listed who were born prior to 1918 were probably ethnic Poles who listed Germany as their place of birth because they were born in that part of Poland which then belonged to Geramny.
According to their website, they about 1800 members that reenact a wide variety of WW2 era armies, from the UK, US, Australia, Germany and others. This looks to be one of the groups that does Germany. I would go with the idea that this is a non-issue.
It seems pretty clear that the first paragraph is about the party specifically, and the third is about wearing Nazi/German uniforms in general, such as at re-enactment events. That the dinner itself was an educational event doesn’t make sense, and doesn’t seem to be supported by what the man said.
With more context, including the portion where he addresses the party specifically. The portion in the OP sure doesn’t seem to be about the party itself.
No, I meant it as I wrote it. To clarify:
Option 1: Boroom is claiming that the dinner was an educational event, which justified wearing the uniforms.
Option 2: Boroom is saying two different things in the two different paragraphs: that the dinner is an off-season social event, and that the reason his group wears Nazi uniforms in general is for educational (ie, re-enactment) purposes.
Option 1 makes no sense to me. As you say, it was a private party, there was no one there to educate. Option 2 makes perfect sense, in light of his full remarks.
I mean, it’s possible he’s saying that the dinner was for educational purposes, but it seems like a real stretch.
Neither option satiate his position of educational neutrality since the point of him saying that is to defend his position of wearing said uniform. It wasn’t like he was responding about the history of the group, he was defending the use of the uniforms in this off-season unsanctioned party.
We don’t know the questions he was asked, unless you have an interview transcript. I couldn’t find one. It wouldn’t beggar belief that he was asked why his group would ever wear Nazi/German uniforms, whether that indicated support for Nazi ideology, and so forth. Actually, we don’t even know that his statements were in the form of an interview, as opposed to giving a statement (albeit a disorganized one).
Is it your position that he meant that the dinner itself was an educational event, which is plainly foolish (no one to educate, as you note), therefore he’s lying about the real reason his group wears Nazi uniforms?
I tend to look at this from the perspective of a re-enactor in remission. I mostly agree with looking at it only that way.
The only experience I have with Nazi re-enactors was one year when a park in Fresno rented out half of its area to the medieval re-enactors and the other half to the WWII re-enactors. We all got to eyeball each other’s costumes and speculate on why someone would want to dress up like that.
I can’t speak to why a person would choose the Nazi side in a recreation, but every group has one or more subgroups of folks who are a little more transgressive and/or who want to party harder. One the more obvious subgroups on the medieval side was The Pirates. For that weekend, after the main re-enactments were over, the SS would come party with the pirates.
The only reason I’d agree with that is to keep from hurting people. Not to keep from upsetting people, necessarily, but it’s recent enough history that it’s possible to intersect with people who lived through part of the horror, or with their children, who were affected second-hand.
I’m kind of torn about that. The group doesn’t re-enact the 1940’s or German Heritage, they re-enact the war. If they’re meeting as the re-enactment group, and this is the only non-field meeting they have, a different costume would be jarringly out of context and a bother to obtain. If they’re meeting as several groups, being in street clothes would cut down on the number of people each one recognizes as someone they’ve met.
So wouldn’t mind them being in their regular costumes, but I’d expect them to take care to keep things in a back room at the restaurant, so there’s little chance of running into someone who will be hurt by the sudden sight. And I’d expect them to do their best to explain their context and reassure folks that they’re not sympathizers. It looks like they were trying to do that.
I won’t speculate on the motives of whoever sent the picture in. But it sounds like no one was traumatized that night. (interesting typo - typed draumatized the first time)
The flags are immaterial only according to the substandard and unfathomable logic you must be employing.
I originally used the term “Nazi regalia” as in objects bearing the distinguishing symbols of Nazism. A swastika flag is a prime example, but there are innumerable others, all of which are materially offensive. I hope that clears it up for you.
I have already questioned the sincerity of their ridiculous disclaimers (Education?- yeah, right).
This would be true only if they if they waited until they got completely out of public sight in a private room before they broke out their Nazi regalia, meaning they kept it folded and tucked out of sight. The link does not provide corroboration for such considerate behavior, though.
Publicity is not necessary to render an act offensive, unless you think it’s OK to beat your wife as long as no one finds out about it.
I’d be willing to opine that speaking that he is speaking only on his own behalf(and not the group, since he does not claim to be a spokesperson for the group and individuals in the group can and just might have their own real reasons). That said we know the following:
They had a party in Nazi uniforms.
This party was outside of the standard sponsored group’s functions (but has been recurring for 16 years.
The rationale he gave for wearing said uniforms was “you’re there to educate people about history, and a lot of that is so people don’t forget”
We can reasonably assume that this was not open to the public in general and I’m still not sure whom is supposed to be educated about the history of a nice dinner at a German restaurant.
Americans are well known fanatics about re-enacting.
Particularely of German Armed forces 1933-1945.
Really they are just nerds who love German uniforms, German weapons, etc.
Most either have no idea about Nazism, and/or will outright ban any political support of them during re-enactment.
So yes its “kosher”.
The thing is that for Jews and Germans alike its taboo to dress as Wehrmacht or have Swastika flags. In Germany its actually illegal.
This is where the shock comes from.
If you were to look at historical reality though…
You can see that they are always dressing as Wehrmacht. Not Nazi Party members.
= So Wehrmacht is apolitical. Just Armed forces of Germany. And Swastika flag was indeed the lawful flag of the German Empire 1933-1945. It was shown around the world in German Ambassies in USA, etc.
So technically its not illogical either.
Again problem comes from emotional response some people have about this.
For example, when the Bundeswehr (Modern German Army) rolls across the main Avenue in Paris in modern day (they are allowed to do so as the French and Germans share a Brigade), many anti-Germans and veterans of WW2 are shocked because the very visible symbol of the German Army is the Iron Cross. The same symbol as the Wehrmacht, just styled in modern way.
To come back to re-enactors, I would bet there are more true racist sitting with suits in Investment banks commenting behind doors.
Or even at black only or hispanic only parties,
Especially among Jewish only (the evil Aryan goyyyyyyyim)
Than among this group of re-enactors who are just nerdy memory lovers and actors.
So as soon as we obtain a bit more chronological remoteness we don’t need to worry about hurting anyone badly enough, or something like that? Nazi depravity will never be diluted.
As you can see, Boroom speaks about the party, then shifts to speaking about the nature of the group (the paragraph about background checks). I submit that the final paragraph is also about the nature of the group, and not the party, rather than Boroom circling back to talk about the party, and in a nonsensical fashion.
It does. The post you directed at me, #51, only addressed the flags. It doesn’t take “substandard and unfathomable logic” to think you were making the flags a priority.
Is there some reason, beyond the desire for RO, that you reject the concept of re-enactors as educators?
You mean they may have walked from the restaurant parking lot to the restaurant door in Nazi/German attire? I’m not shuddering with outrage here.
It’s necessary in this case for any harm to have been done, of any kind. If you think it’s offensive, bully for you. If no one was harmed, and no Nazi movement is gaining steam, it’s pure RO. Nothing’s at stake.
Basically make the law like Germany & Austria is what you’re saying.
Somehow I think Yankees will never abide by this, they value their basic freedoms too much.
Its not just German Army re-enactors…There are 1000s of different groups and associations who dress in different ways in the USA. Would be legal nightmare.
To be honest I think ironically the German mentality about outlawing Nazis and anything associated with them, is almost more Nazi in behavior than the actual people they are legally persecuting.
Then again you have to remember that in 1945 most NSDAP/NAZI party members assimilated into the main political parties (left or right wing). Nazi lawyers became CDU or SDP lawyers, etc. So its only logical that the same intolerant attitude would be maintained no matter the political line.
Ironic…all this.
It’s like Israel. Really the Jews probably don’t notice the irony that most of their ethnic beliefs are closely similar to National-Socialism. I dont oppose Israel Im just saying.
Pretending that Nazis who committed atrocities were “human beings just like us” is incredibly inane.
Mass murder has been acceptable in very few societies in modern history. Those that permitted and encouraged it did not involve people “just like us”. Very serious pathology was at work.
You help prevent such things from happening again by stigmatizing the hell out of them - not by saying the equivalent of “oh well, people just act out sometimes…it could happen to anyone”.