# Historical Baseball Questions (Ken Burns) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** baseball-mlb\ **Created:** [November 3, 2020, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-baseball-questions-ken-burns/924614 "2020-11-03T03:41:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-baseball-questions-ken-burns/924614/221 "2021-01-22T21:09:46Z")
Rounding the bases upstairs? Thanks, Hank Aaron. > **[The night Hank Aaron broke Babe Ruth’s home run record](https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2021/01/22/hank-aaron-home-run-record-game/)** > > In the Braves' 1974 home opener, Hank Aaron got a pitch to hit from Dodgers left Al Downing and he didn't miss. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-baseball-questions-ken-burns/924614/222 "2021-01-22T21:16:07Z")
I saw that - what a classy guy he was. ---
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2021, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-baseball-questions-ken-burns/924614/223 "2021-01-26T04:31:06Z")
tell me something I’ve always wondered when a hitting record like that is up to be broken does the hitter get an occasional soft pitch to help? I mean heck if the game didn’t matter id try to be the guy who gets remembered as the pitcher who helped break the record ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2021, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-baseball-questions-ken-burns/924614/224 "2021-01-26T15:59:59Z")
> [@nightshadea](#): > > I’ve always wondered when a hitting record like that is up to be broken does the hitter get an occasional soft pitch to help? I mean heck if the game didn’t matter id try to be the guy who gets remembered as the pitcher who helped break the record That would be considered insulting, and it’s not consistent with the way professional athletes generally think. They are VERY competitive and hate to be shown up. The guy who gave up #715, Al Downing, was a very good pitcher. He pitched for 17 years, won 123 games, and made an All-Star team. To be that good at that level of competition, you need to have an awful lot of competitive drive. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2021, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-baseball-questions-ken-burns/924614/225 "2021-01-26T16:39:30Z")
> [@nightshadea](#): > > I’ve always wondered when a hitting record like that is up to be broken does the hitter get an occasional soft pitch to help? I mean heck if the game didn’t matter id try to be the guy who gets remembered as the pitcher who helped break the record While it’s a different sport, in 2001, New York Giants defensive end Michael Strahan was threatening the single-season record for quarterback sacks. In their final game of the season, against the Packers, with Strahan a half-sack short of the record, Packers quarterback Brett Favre slid to the ground in front of Strahan, giving up a fairly easy sack – and, thus, giving Strahan the record. It was widely criticized at the time, with many fans feeling that Favre and the Packers gave Strahan a “gimme” sack for the record, and while the sack was counted officially, it’s still seen with disdain by many fans. So, that’s one reason why athletes wouldn’t generally do something like this – they don’t want their records to be seen as cheap or unearned. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/_C2W62HNNsc/hqdefault.jpg "Video Of Michael Strahan "Breaking" The Sack Record: The Most Bogus In All Of Sports") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_C2W62HNNsc) ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2021, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-baseball-questions-ken-burns/924614/226 "2021-01-26T16:47:48Z")
Yeah nobody wants to be the guy who gave up the record, potentially having an entire career of achievement overshadowed by one pitch like that. Obviously, rational sports observers won’t judge a guy on one moment but the thought of having that kind of prominent association with a name/record and being on the losing end of that…I agree, no way any athlete with competitive juices and integrity gift wraps a record or achievement. ---
**Author:** ![ThatCanadianGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@ThatCanadianGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThatCanadianGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2021, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-baseball-questions-ken-burns/924614/227 "2021-01-27T14:08:45Z")
Yes, the players are competitive for the most part and would make the player EARN the record fair and square. I do recall however someone say they would give Hank a soft pitch, I think it was Jim Bouton mentioning it in Ball Four but I could misremember who it was. Got in trouble with the commissioner as I recall for saying that. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2021, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-baseball-questions-ken-burns/924614/228 "2021-01-27T14:31:32Z")
I have a vague memory of something like that happening when Sosa and McGuire were chasing the single season home run record. A fellow Dominican pitcher gave up a couple homers to Sosa late in the season and was accused of helping him. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2021, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-baseball-questions-ken-burns/924614/229 "2021-01-27T16:38:16Z")
Sammy hit just 3 home runs off Dominican pitchers in September 1998, and it was against three different guys on three different days. The last time in 1998 he hit two homers off a Dominican pitcher was on August 23, when he lit up Jose Lima twice. That is kind of early on the home run chase, though, to think Lima was grooving pitches on purpose; that gave Sosa 51 bombs, still well off the record, and Lima was pitching for a contending team, so the game meant something. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2021, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-baseball-questions-ken-burns/924614/230 "2021-01-27T16:51:20Z")
Not that it happens very often, but pitchers _have_ grooved pitches to great hitters at the end of their careers. > **[Why Wainwright's grooved Jeter pitch is a big deal](https://www.sbnation.com/mlb/2014/7/16/5904043/adam-wainwright-derek-jeter-all-star-game-grooved-pitch-pipe-shots)** > > You can groove a pitch. But you can't talk about grooving the pitch. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Dead\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Cat)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2021, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-baseball-questions-ken-burns/924614/231 "2021-01-28T16:11:12Z")
First I’ve heard of this, and that’s ridiculous. Looking it the video it looks like the softest play ever. Favre should be ashamed and if I were Strahan I wouldn’t want the record. It’s been mentioned on the boards many times, but there is a very famous counterexample of this from cricket. In his final innings Sir Don Bradman just needed to score 4 runs before getting out to have a career batting average of 100+ (a phenomenal achievement - it’s nearly double what the next best player has achieved in the entire history of the game). He was bowled out for 0 and I daresay that was a highlight for the bowler concerned (Eric Hollies). You want it, you earn it. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2021, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-baseball-questions-ken-burns/924614/232 "2021-01-30T00:10:00Z")
I read that Denny McClain threw Mickey Mantle an easy pitch which he hit for home run 535 (passing Jimmy Foxx). McClain was wrapping up the first 30-win season in a million years, so he could afford to be magnanimous. Mantle retired shortly thereafter. The article quoted Mantle: “McClain made me a fan for life”. Later events in McClain’s life makes me wonder if he had money riding on that softball. ---
**Author:** ![gnarator](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gnarator/32/8266_2.png) [@gnarator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnarator)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2021, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-baseball-questions-ken-burns/924614/233 "2021-02-07T00:28:00Z")
> [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > I read that Denny McClain threw Mickey Mantle an easy pitch which he hit for home run 535 (passing Jimmy Foxx). > > McClain was wrapping up the first 30-win season in a million years, so he could afford to be magnanimous. Mantle retired shortly thereafter. The way I read it, McClain was cruising in the game when Mantle stepped in. Mantle missed a fastball, then jokingly waved over the middle of the plate, and McClain obligingly grooved the next pitch right down the middle. After the game, McClain wouldn’t admit to laying one in there, but did admit that Mantle had been his favorite player as a boy. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2021, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-baseball-questions-ken-burns/924614/234 "2021-03-23T17:07:08Z")
Bumped. Today’s featured Wiki article - a poor schlub, lost to history, and no one even knows his first name: > **[List of nineteenth-century Major League Baseball players with unidentified given names](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_(baseball))** > > Pages for logged out editors learn more > > > Thirty-four individuals who played professional baseball at the major league level before 1900 lack identified given names (there are hundreds of other players of which this is true from the twentieth-century Negro leagues). All 34 played between 1872 and 1892; 17 played in the National Association, which folded in 1875. Identification of players remains difficult due to a lack of biographical information. A Brooklyn, New York, directory, for in... ---
**Author:** ![Mark\_Finn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/34f0e0/32.png) [@Mark\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mark_Finn)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2021, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-baseball-questions-ken-burns/924614/235 "2021-03-24T11:35:18Z")
Speaking of high ERA’s, there must be some players who ended their career with infinite ERA’s - i.e. they allowed one or more (earned) runs, but never got an out. ---
**Author:** ![gdave](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gdave/32/3683_2.png) [@gdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gdave)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2021, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-baseball-questions-ken-burns/924614/236 "2021-03-24T11:41:38Z")
Record keeping for the first few decades of professional baseball was sketchy, but there are at least [18 players with an infinite career ERA.](https://web.archive.org/web/20120406113341/https://sabr.org/cmsFiles/Files/SABR_BB_Rec_Cmt_News_June_2004.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2021, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-baseball-questions-ken-burns/924614/237 "2021-03-31T14:34:36Z")
Interesting article, NYT Magazine, 23 March 2021. > **[Justice for the Negro Leagues Will Mean More Than Just Stats (Published 2021)](https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/23/magazine/negro-leagues-baseball-stats-mlb.html)** > > Major League Baseball now wants to welcome Negro-leagues statistics into its record books — but the numbers are just a small part of what needs to be remembered. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2021, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-baseball-questions-ken-burns/924614/238 "2021-06-03T14:48:48Z")
I just read the book _Caste_. It is very good. As an incidental thing, the author is discussing Satchel Paige. Mentions how he was 46 when he pitched in the majors and World Series, and a brief successful appearance even at the age of 59 for three innings. The bullshyte claim? The book says his batters led him practice taking out lit cigarettes from their mouths using his fastball. And never hit anyone. Probably because this is not what happened. Maybe he’s the best pitcher of all time, or close. But this William Tell stuff strikes me as unlikely. Anyone know better? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2021, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-baseball-questions-ken-burns/924614/239 "2021-06-03T15:02:28Z")
> [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > The bullshyte claim? The book says his batters led him practice taking out lit cigarettes from their mouths using his fastball. And never hit anyone. Probably because this is not what happened. Maybe he’s the best pitcher of all time, or close. But this William Tell stuff strikes me as unlikely. Anyone know better? [NPR says that happened.](https://www.npr.org/transcripts/111063901) Presumably when he was in the Negro Leagues or on a barnstorming tour, the man loved to show off for the crowd. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2021, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-baseball-questions-ken-burns/924614/240 "2021-06-03T15:26:01Z")
Satchel Paige spent a huge portion of his baseball career bouncing around teams in the Negro Leagues and doing barnstorming tours against a wide variety of opponents. This makes fully documenting some aspects of his career very difficult (he didn’t get into MLB until he was 42, as the color barrier wasn’t broken until he was older), additionally the Negro Leagues and barnstorming baseball of the first half of the 20th century are infamously filled with “tall tales”, these games were not covered as consistently by sportswriters as MLB games and many stories about them are somewhat mythological in nature. Even major league ball from that period has accumulated a number of tales that are mostly fictional, and it was covered much more closely than the baseball outfits Paige was in. All that is to say, I’m not familiar with any hard proof of the claim Paige was knocking lit cigarettes out of people’s mouths without harming them, but I have seen the claim repeated for years. Larry Tye who wrote a biography on Paige and spent years researching him seems to believe the lit cigarette story, and also says that while there are tons of legends about Paige, he thinks “80% of them are factual.” I do think Paige was a rare talent whose career, had he not been denied a position in the majors for most of his life, could have been record setting. Several major league sluggers, some of whom didn’t face Paige until he was in his 40s, have said he was the the hardest hurler they ever faced. For decades the guy basically had one pitch (a fastball, that he gave 20 different names to), and was still very hard to get a hit against in all that time. The fact he was still playing at a professional level into his 50s is also somewhat of a freak thing and suggests he was a biological oddity in some sense. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-baseball-questions-ken-burns/924614.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-baseball-questions-ken-burns/924614.md?page=13)