# Historical Baseball Questions (Ken Burns) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** baseball-mlb\ **Created:** [November 3, 2020, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-baseball-questions-ken-burns/924614 "2020-11-03T03:41:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2020, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-baseball-questions-ken-burns/924614/61 "2020-11-08T04:08:36Z")
I’m too young to remember Billy Martin as a player, though apparently he was enough of a partier off the field that he was considered to be a bad influence on his Yankee teammates, particularly Mantle, and that was a big factor in him being traded away. I remember him more as a manager, particularly the fact that he had five separate terms as Yankees manager, and that one of the times the Yankees fired him, it was after he got into a fight with a marshmallow salesman at a bar. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2020, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-baseball-questions-ken-burns/924614/62 "2020-11-08T04:16:59Z")
1. Pro football became more popular in the 50s. The NFL had absorbed three teams from the All-American Football Conference, and was a truly transcontinental league. The 1958 NFL championship, “The Greatest Game Ever Played,” had a TV audience of 45 million. 2. Jim Bunning, a Hall of Fame pitcher (he threw a no-hitter for the Detroit Tigers and a perfect game for the Philadelphia Phillies) served six terms as Congressman and four terms as Senator from Kentucky. 3. There’s no doubt it was one hell of a catch. But it wasn’t just Mays racing to dead center field (450 feet), he caught the ball, stopped, pivoted and threw the ball back to the infield. That by itself was a great piece of athleticism. There’s a youTube clip by a stats geek who breaks the play down in exhausting detail. [Willie Mays Made "The Catch," but How Great Was It? | Baseball Bits - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htZNlCZ6uqE) 4. According to Brooklyn Dodgers lover and sportswriter [Roger Kahn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Kahn) Giants owner Horace Stoneham was a more than willing participant in the move to the West Coast. 5. By his own admission, Larsen had poor control. When he pitched for good teams (the Yankees and the 1962 Giants) he was pretty good. When he pitched for bad teams, he was not very good. 6. The catcher controls the pitcher. Not just by calling for a fastball or curve, but framing where the pitcher should spot the ball, speeding or slowing the pace of the game, and having a better sense than the manager or pitching coach of which pitches are working well that day for the pitcher. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2020, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-baseball-questions-ken-burns/924614/63 "2020-11-08T04:23:04Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > [Jim Abbott](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Abbott) only had one hand yet pitched a no-hitter. Abbott and Pete Gray share a record unlikely to ever be broken. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2020, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-baseball-questions-ken-burns/924614/64 "2020-11-08T04:38:39Z")
> [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > The series calls Larsen “a mediocre pitcher” despite throwing a World Series perfect game. Is this fair? As @Kent_Clark notes, Larsen had some good seasons, but most of his seasons were kind of “eh.” (And, any player can have one transcendent moment, like Larsen’s perfect game.) Also, though he was a starting pitcher early in his career (including in 1956, when he threw the perfect game), he was primarily a reliever after 1960. This was before the idea of a “closer,” or a specialist reliever, really had taken hold, and relief pitchers were generally guys who weren’t good enough to be starters. If you care to, you can take a look at [Larsen’s career stats at Baseball Reference](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/l/larsedo01.shtml). Scroll down a bit, past the first table (“Standard Pitching”), to the table entitled “Player Value–Pitching.” There, you’ll see a bunch of advanced/sabermetric stats, including one column entitled “WAR” – that’s “Wins Above Replacement Value.” WAR is a somewhat controversial stat, but it’s an attempt to assess how much a player contributes to his team’s success, compared to cutting him and replacing him with a AAA (high minor league) player. If a player has a WAR above 5 for a season, he had a very good, All-Star level performance that year (and an 8+ is MVP-level performance); a solid starter for a team typically has a WAR of 2+. Larsen only had three seasons where his WAR was above 2 (and all three of those were 2.6); his career WAR was only 12.5 – as he played for 14 seasons, that means his average season had a WAR of only 0.9. So, yeah, Larsen did, in fact, have a mediocre career. But, he will always be remembered for that one amazing game, and there are far worse things to be remembered for. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2020, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-baseball-questions-ken-burns/924614/65 "2020-11-08T05:49:27Z")
> [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > No doubt other athletes pivoted to politics. Which baseball players became successful politicians? Bush 41 was Yale’s starting first baseman from '46 to '48 and team captain for '47 & '48. > **[The Complete Collegiate Baseball Record of George H.W. Bush – Society for...](https://sabr.org/journal/article/the-complete-collegiate-baseball-record-of-george-h-w-bush/)** ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2020, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-baseball-questions-ken-burns/924614/66 "2020-11-08T05:57:47Z")
> [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > What other great athletes overcame massive physical disadvantages? As a child, Mordecai “Three Finger” Brown mangled his throwing hand in a farming accident. His remaining fingers healed unnaturally and gave him one hell of a curveball. [https://www.baseball-reference.com/bpv/images/7/7b/MordecaiBrownHand.jpg](https://www.baseball-reference.com/bpv/images/7/7b/MordecaiBrownHand.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2020, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-baseball-questions-ken-burns/924614/67 "2020-11-08T06:09:13Z")
My mistake, the loss of his index finger and the injuries to his other fingers were separate incidents. > **[Mordecai Brown – Society for American Baseball Research](https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/mordecai-brown/)** ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2020, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-baseball-questions-ken-burns/924614/68 "2020-11-08T07:12:07Z")
> [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > Some say the 50s were the best decade for baseball. But new roads, suburbs and automobiles led many to move - some to the West Coast or to the sun belt. Television also led to declining crowds and revenues. Only baby boomers say this, because it’s the baseball of their youth. Baseball attendance stagnated until teams began moving west, and the KIND of baseball being played was very dull. There was very little speed in the game, relatively speaking. > [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > - Mickey Mantle signed a contract for $1100 around the same time Mario Cuomo signed one for $2000 - though only one of these players were destined to succeed. No doubt other athletes pivoted to politics. Which baseball players became successful politicians? Jim Bunning is in the Hall of Fame. > [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > The series made a lot out of a famous catch in deep centre field made by Willie Mays - implying it was “impossible” and no one else could have done it. Puffery - or just the facts? Well it wasn’t impossible. He did it. Willie Mays was a specacular outfielder, but there have been some pretty great center fielders. I saw Devon White play for years, and I struggle to believe it is possible for a human being to be more technically perfect an outfielder as Devon White was; I believe he could have made that same catch. He sure as hell didn’t also hit 660 home runs though. > [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > Williams took a four year hiatus to serve with the Marines, which he did with great distinction in the Korean War. Was there great public enthusiasm for this conflict? Williams served in both WWII and Korea. > [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > Did the New York Giants make significant efforts to stay in the city rather than move to Frisco? Not really. Things were going badly in New York. Attendance was really flat; they were pulling an average of 9000-10000 a game despite fielding competitive teams. It’s not widely known, but the Giants were literally packing their boxes to move to Toronto in late 1975; the SF mayor stepped in at the last minute to prevent it. Hoping to stave off a lawsuit by the Toronto group - the league was already being sued by Seattle over the Pilots debacle - they created a Toronto expansion team, the Blue Jays. (And a Seattle team too.) > [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > The series calls Larsen “a mediocre pitcher” despite throwing a World Series perfect game. Is this fair? No. That is wrong. Don Larsen wasn’t a Hall of Famer but he was a good pitcher. His career record was 81-91, because he was stuck on a very bad team when was was a kid, but Larsen pitched 1548 major league innings and lasted 14 years, and was well above replacement level. That is not “mediocre.” ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2020, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-baseball-questions-ken-burns/924614/69 "2020-11-08T07:56:01Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Don Larsen wasn’t a Hall of Famer but he was a good pitcher. His career record was 81-91, because he was stuck on a very bad team when was was a kid, but Larsen pitched 1548 major league innings and lasted 14 years, and was well above replacement level. That is not “mediocre.” Because I respect @RickJay’s assessments of baseball players quite a lot, I went back and looked more at Larsen. And, I retract my previous “mediocre” assessment on Larsen. Take out the 3-21 record he had with the Orioles in '54 (who were a 100-loss team), and his career W/L was 78-70. He had a career ERA of 3.78, which isn’t bad at all. While he wasn’t a star, he did have a 14-year career – and much of it was when there were only 16 teams in MLB, meaning that he was probably among the best 100 to 150 pitchers in the country for a good chunk of his career. ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lichtman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeff_lichtman/32/1531_2.png) [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2020, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-baseball-questions-ken-burns/924614/70 "2020-11-08T08:23:07Z")
> [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > c) The Dodgers moved to LA after the Brooklyn Mayor refused demands to fund a new stadium - a very modern sounding phrase. Was this the first example of an owner demanding this? A nit: It was Robert Moses, the man in charge of urban development in New York City, who kept the Dodgers from getting a new ballpark. Brooklyn is a borough in New York, and doesn’t have its own mayor. > [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > 1. The series made a lot out of a famous catch in deep centre field made by Willie Mays - implying it was “impossible” and no one else could have done it. Puffery - or just the facts? Willie Mays said it wasn’t his greatest catch. People remember it because it happened in the World Series. I’ve seen catches as good as the one by Mays, but they don’t happen often. Also, fielding is better today than it was in 1954. Mays’ catch really stood out at the time. > [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > 1. What other great athletes overcame massive physical disadvantages? Jim Mecir hasn’t been mentioned yet. He was born with a club foot, for which he had surgery several times. His right leg was an inch shorter than his left, his right calf muscles were atrophied, and his right ankle was fused. Despite these problems, he pitched in MLB for eleven seasons. > [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > 1. Williams took a four year hiatus to serve with the Marines, which he did with great distinction in the Korean War. Was there great public enthusiasm for this conflict? The Korean War was unpopular in the U.S. A lot of people felt that the war dragged on with little progress, and that there wasn’t sufficient reason to be there. It wasn’t as unpopular as the Vietnam War, but people were still dissatisfied. BTW, Williams served three years in the military during World War 2, and two years during the Korean War. > [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > 1. Beloved Babe Ruth died of symptoms secondary to throat cancer. Was this ever publicly blamed on or tied to chewing tobacco? At the time, most people didn’t understand the connection between tobacco and cancer. > [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > 1. A lot of ball players are given nicknames, many of which are well known. Any lesser known nicknames which are particularly interesting? Ron Cey - The Penguin, because of the way he ran Doug Gwosdz - Eye Chart, for the spelling of his name Marc Rzepczynski - Scrabble, see above Pablo Sandoval - Panda, because he reminded teammate Barry Zito of the animated character Kung Fu Panda Gabby Hartnett - Old Tomato Face, because of his complexion Sal Maglie - The Barber, because as a pitcher he gave opposing hitters close shaves Mark Fydrich - The Bird, because he reminded people of Big Bird from Sesame Street Paul and Lloyd Waner - Big Poison and Little Poison. They played for Pittsburgh, but Dodger fans called the brothers “big person” and “little person,” and “person” sounded like “poison” in their Brooklyn accents. Paul Blair - Motormouth, because he talked constantly Bill Lee - Spaceman, because he was spacey Jeffrey Leonard - Penitentiary Face, because of his permanent scowl Don Stanhouse - Stan the Man Unusual, a play on Stan “The Man” Musial, because of his crazy antics and wild sense of humor Mickey Tettleton - Froot Loops, because he claimed the cereal was the source of his hitting power ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2020, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-baseball-questions-ken-burns/924614/71 "2020-11-08T14:45:00Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Veeck allegedly told Gaedel that he had a sharpshooter in the stands who had instructions to shoot him if he swung at a pitch. A hilarious article in IIRC _The Fireside Book of Baseball_ claimed that Veeck got concerned about this when Gaedel asked him how tall Wee Willie Keeler was. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2020, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-baseball-questions-ken-burns/924614/72 "2020-11-08T18:12:44Z")
(As an aside, the House of David featured heavily whiskered men playing small town baseball teams. The book shows advertisements to drum up whatever enthusiasm is warranted, starting with WHISKERS! WHISKERS! They toured for forty years. Obviously, with hippies scraggly hair and beards were not such a rare thing. Might not even be respectable in small towns. Not sure about Muskogee.) ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2020, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-baseball-questions-ken-burns/924614/73 "2020-11-08T19:52:03Z")
> [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > Any lesser known nicknames which are particularly interesting? “The World’s Largest Blood Clot” - longtime Baltimore Oriole Boog Powell describing his appearance [the Indians’ road uniform with all its red](http://exhibits.baseballhalloffame.org/dressed_to_the_nines/images/al_1975_cleveland.gif). ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2020, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-baseball-questions-ken-burns/924614/74 "2020-11-08T19:57:41Z")
1. Billy Martin was a violent asshole. He’s most well-known for sucker-punching people. > **[Zumsteg: Cheater's Guide to Baseball](https://www.espn.com/espn/cheat/news/story?id=2967031)** > > In an excerpt from "Cheater's Guide to Baseball," Derek Zumsteg recounts Billy Martin's unpredictable managerial career. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2020, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-baseball-questions-ken-burns/924614/75 "2020-11-08T20:01:27Z")
I remember when Roberto Alomar spit on an umpire in 1996, David Letterman joked, “Every time someone spits on an umpire, Billy Martin’s widow gets a dollar.” ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2020, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-baseball-questions-ken-burns/924614/76 "2020-11-08T21:12:14Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > “The World’s Largest Blood Clot” - longtime Baltimore Oriole Boog Powell describing his appearance [the Indians’ road uniform with all its red](http://exhibits.baseballhalloffame.org/dressed_to_the_nines/images/al_1975_cleveland.gif). > **[Boog Powell of the Cleveland Indians bats during an Major League...](https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/boog-powell-of-the-cleveland-indians-bats-during-an-major-news-photo/167238841?adppopup=true)** > > Boog Powell of the Cleveland Indians bats during an Major League Baseball game circa 1975 at Cleveland Stadium in Cleveland, Ohio. Powell played for the Indians from 1975-76. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2020, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-baseball-questions-ken-burns/924614/77 "2020-11-08T23:29:25Z")
> [@Jeff\_Lichtman](#): > > Jeffrey Leonard - Penitentiary Face, because of his permanent scowl He also did his home run trot with one arm hanging down, called “One Flap Down” Leonard… ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2020, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-baseball-questions-ken-burns/924614/78 "2020-11-13T14:54:14Z")
> [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > Black teams played white teams 438 times and won 309. It’s hard to believe that this is truly representative of the talent level of the two leagues. Winning ~60% of the games over a single season is probably about average the for the top teams in the league. Winning over 70% over the equivalent of over 2 1/2 seasons is incredible dominance. Subsequent to integration African-American players did very well for themselves but did not dominate the upper ranks of the league (especially pitching) at a level which would be remotely compatible with them winning over 70% of the games over 2 1/2 seasons. I would have to think that - assuming that these numbers are legit to begin with - there’s something else at work. Most likely, that these interleague games attracted the upper echelon of Negro League players but did not - in aggregate - attract the upper echelon of MLB players to nearly the same extent. Which would make sense, since for the NL players this would be a big opportunity, while the top tier MLB players would have been better paid during the regular season and probably had better opportunities to cash in their celebrity during the offseason as well. But perhaps someone with actual knowledge could comment on this. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2020, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-baseball-questions-ken-burns/924614/79 "2020-11-13T16:48:15Z")
> [@Jeff\_Lichtman](#): > > Jeffrey Leonard - Penitentiary Face, because of his permanent scowl > [@John\_DiFool](#): > > He also did his home run trot with one arm hanging down, called “One Flap Down” Leonard… And “Hac-Man” for his tendency to swing at anything. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2020, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-baseball-questions-ken-burns/924614/80 "2020-11-14T23:21:49Z")
> [@Jeff\_Lichtman](#): > > > [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > > > 1. DiMaggio got a hit in 56 straight games. Pete Rose got 44 but no one has really come close. Is this record out of reach? > > Again, it’s not impossible, but it’s very unlikely. It’s always been unlikely. No one else has come close to DiMaggio’s record in the entire history of MLB. And the trends of today’s game go against breaking the record. Improved pitching and defense make it less likely, as does the emphasis on hitting home runs. What’s not impossible, though unlikely, is that someone will hit in more than 56 straight games _over two seasons_, which some nitwits would count as exceeding DiMaggio’s streak (we’ve already seen some distant threats to the streak based on such a spurious measure). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-baseball-questions-ken-burns/924614.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-baseball-questions-ken-burns/924614.md?page=5)