# Historical figures whose fictionalized versions have surpassed them in importance **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 3, 2014, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-figures-whose-fictionalized-versions-have-surpassed-them-in-importance/692293 "2014-07-03T19:39:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![MsKaren](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a183cd/32.png) [@MsKaren](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsKaren)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-figures-whose-fictionalized-versions-have-surpassed-them-in-importance/692293/101 "2014-07-10T04:45:47Z")
“reminiscences of Anna Leonowens herself. A widow with two children, she had served as governess or tutor to the sixty-four children of King Rama IV or King Mongkut.” Of course, \*Anna and the King of Siam \*which in turn became _The King and I_ overshadow the real Anna and the real King. I’d also include Henry Higins of Pygmalion then My Fair Lady based on linguist Henry Sweet. the wiki: "In the preface to his play Pygmalion, George Bernard Shaw, after describing Sweet, stated that “[Henry] Higgins is not a portrait of Sweet, to whom the adventure of Eliza Doolittle would have been impossible; still, as will be seen, there are touches of Sweet in the play.” ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-figures-whose-fictionalized-versions-have-surpassed-them-in-importance/692293/102 "2014-07-10T13:09:55Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > The thread is about historical figures whose fictionalised versions have surpassed them. The discussion njtt and I were having(before he/she decided to switch to personal insult) was whether Jesus qualifies or not. How can that discussion possibly be off topic in this thread? Isn’t that what the topic of the thread _is_? Don’t be disingenuous. **twickster** , Cafe Society moderator ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-figures-whose-fictionalized-versions-have-surpassed-them-in-importance/692293/103 "2014-07-10T13:17:58Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > Moses, Abraham and David may be entirely legendary. There’s nothing outside the scriptures to corroborate their existence. In the case of David, this is [incorrect](http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-artifacts/artifacts-and-the-bible/the-tel-dan-inscription-the-first-historical-evidence-of-the-king-david-bible-story/). There is also more ambiguous [archaeological evidence](http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/07/130721215001.htm). Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_s\_Son](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19adc/32.png) [@Jim\_s\_Son](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_s_Son)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-figures-whose-fictionalized-versions-have-surpassed-them-in-importance/692293/104 "2014-07-10T15:01:49Z")
> [@HubZilla](#): > > Custer’s a strange one as there are multiple histories: > > 1. Heroically making a last stand against hordes of savages > > 2. An evil agent of the Injun-hating white government > > 3. A vainglorious fool who rashly charged into a huge Indian camp > > After visiting Little Bighorn and reading some, the truth was kind of in the middle. > > 1. He did make the last stand, although the battle was relatively quick (the length of a meal) and had few Indian casualties. The Indians probably didn’t swirl around the surrounded soldiers, but rather concealed potshots from the coulees and brushes. They were surrounded, but fighting to the death was more of a practical than heroic decision. Death was usually preferable to being captured alive by Indians. > > 2. He didn’t blame the Indians for fighting back, after taking their land and breaking treaties. He even stated if he were an Indian, he would fight as well. His superiors’ intention was to bring them to the reservations. While not totally admirable, he wasn’t out to kill 'em all. > > 3. I don’t think he was totally rash in his plan. He was trying to duplicate earlier victories, like Washita, where he caught the Indian encampment by surprise. Quickness was key, lest the village scatter, so he didn’t want to wait for infantry support or gatling guns. Unfortunately, the village was far far larger than anyone anticipated, especially after he split his forces. A common refrain, and certainly not unique to Custer, is trying to refight your last battle. ``` There are scholars such as James McPherson who feel that Custer, along with Wesley Merritt and Phil Sheridan, played a key role during the Civil War in transforming the Union cavalry from hapless into a first rate outfit. Sheridan bought the table used at Appomattox and gave it to Custer's wife Libby. Libby spent the 55 years of widowhood using her PR skills to promote her husband favorably. There was an inevitable backlash and things probably went too far the other way. ``` ---
**Author:** ![Agnostic\_Pagan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c4cdca/32.png) [@Agnostic\_Pagan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agnostic_Pagan)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-figures-whose-fictionalized-versions-have-surpassed-them-in-importance/692293/105 "2014-07-10T15:15:30Z")
I would include Napoleon (at least outside of France, not sure within), Genghis and Kublai Khan, Saladin, Asoka, Alexander and Osman (who captured Constantinople) based on various ‘historical’ treatments that added far more fiction than fact. I suppose that the fictionalized versions have not surpassed the originals in actual historical importance, but definitely in pop culture. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-figures-whose-fictionalized-versions-have-surpassed-them-in-importance/692293/106 "2014-07-10T16:28:05Z")
> [@Agnostic\_Pagan](#): > > Osman (who captured Constantinople) No. That was Mehmet II, known as Fatih. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-figures-whose-fictionalized-versions-have-surpassed-them-in-importance/692293/107 "2014-07-10T17:26:40Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > In the case of David, this is [incorrect](http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-artifacts/artifacts-and-the-bible/the-tel-dan-inscription-the-first-historical-evidence-of-the-king-david-bible-story/). > Regards, > Shodan I don’t find that particularly compelling. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-figures-whose-fictionalized-versions-have-surpassed-them-in-importance/692293/108 "2014-07-10T17:58:14Z")
Restating **twickster** ’s mod note: > [@twickster](#): > > If anyone wants to discuss the connection between Biblical or other religious figures as historical personages vs. how they are perceived by believers, start a thread in GD. > > I’m declaring that conversation off-topic in this thread. > > Thanks, > > **twickster** > [@Shodan](#): > > In the case of David, this is [incorrect](http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-artifacts/artifacts-and-the-bible/the-tel-dan-inscription-the-first-historical-evidence-of-the-king-david-bible-story/). There is also more ambiguous [archaeological evidence](http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/07/130721215001.htm). > > Regards, > Shodan > [@RivkahChaya](#): > > I don’t find that particularly compelling. So please drop this tangent. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-figures-whose-fictionalized-versions-have-surpassed-them-in-importance/692293/109 "2014-07-10T21:45:32Z")
> [@twickster](#): > > Don’t be disingenuous. > > **twickster** , Cafe Society moderator WTF? ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-figures-whose-fictionalized-versions-have-surpassed-them-in-importance/692293/110 "2014-07-10T22:08:26Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Restating **twickster** ’s mod note: > > So please drop this tangent. Please explain why it is a tangent. And I’m asking seriously, again, regardless of whatever motives Twickster wishes to impute to me. Surely the question of whether a figure actually qualifies as someone whose historical version has been surpassed by their fictionalised version is central to the thread topic? Everybody has been perfectly civil in the discussion apart from the post by njtt and my post in response. You can tell us to knock that kind of behaviour off, fair enough, but why block that discussion? It’s interesting, germane, and has shown every indication that it can be conducted civilly. I’m genuinely puzzled. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-figures-whose-fictionalized-versions-have-surpassed-them-in-importance/692293/111 "2014-07-10T22:37:02Z")
Dude, start a thread in ATMB and we’ll explain it to you. ---
**Author:** ![Agnostic\_Pagan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c4cdca/32.png) [@Agnostic\_Pagan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agnostic_Pagan)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2014, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-figures-whose-fictionalized-versions-have-surpassed-them-in-importance/692293/112 "2014-07-11T00:41:07Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > No. That was Mehmet II, known as Fatih. Ack! You are correct. And I just read _1453_ this spring. Osman was the founder of the dynasty. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2014, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-figures-whose-fictionalized-versions-have-surpassed-them-in-importance/692293/113 "2014-07-11T02:29:57Z")
Indiana Jones, who was likely based on H. Ryder Haggard’s Allan Quatermain, who in turn may have been based in part on the historical British explorer [Percy Fawcett](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percy_Fawcett#Influence_in_popular_culture), even though Quatermain’s initial appearance precedes Fawcett by quite a few years. The Jones character may have been based directly on Percy Fawcett, but his adventures certainly mirror the Quatermain character. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2014, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-figures-whose-fictionalized-versions-have-surpassed-them-in-importance/692293/114 "2014-07-11T06:43:47Z")
I’m very surprised by many of the names proposed, which are of famous historical figures that people are likely to have heard about primarily at school, in documentaries, magazines, etc… rather than in fiction. For instance : Mark Antony, Eleanor of Aquitaine, the Buddha, Rasputin, Nero, Joan of Arc, Eva Peron, Cleopatra, Alexander, Kublai Khan… Even more so when the assumption is made that people would know about them from a specific work of fiction : a theater play, a German novel, a musical, a Hollywood movie from the 60s, a comic strip… since while the real characters are generally well-known, only a tiny fraction of the population will have seen/read these works. I would have expected overall less historically important people who have been depicted in many works of fiction (like Jesse James or Custer) or people who would be completely unknown to the general public if it wasn’t for a specific fiction (Eliott Ness or Will Adams). ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2014, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-figures-whose-fictionalized-versions-have-surpassed-them-in-importance/692293/115 "2014-07-11T20:24:24Z")
I would certainly disagree about Brutus. Has Shakespeare never written Julius Caesar, the very real assassination of Caesar by Brutus and co. had massive historical implications. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2014, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-figures-whose-fictionalized-versions-have-surpassed-them-in-importance/692293/116 "2014-07-11T21:11:47Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I’m very surprised by many of the names proposed, which are of famous historical figures that people are likely to have heard about primarily at school, in documentaries, magazines, etc… rather than in fiction. For instance : > > Mark Antony, Eleanor of Aquitaine, the Buddha, Rasputin, Nero, Joan of Arc, Eva Peron, Cleopatra, Alexander, Kublai Khan… > Even more so when the assumption is made that people would know about them from a specific work of fiction : a theater play, a German novel, a musical, a Hollywood movie from the 60s, a comic strip… since while the real characters are generally well-known, only a tiny fraction of the population will have seen/read these works. > I would have expected overall less historically important people who have been depicted in many works of fiction (like Jesse James or Custer) or people who would be completely unknown to the general public if it wasn’t for a specific fiction (Eliott Ness or Will Adams). The point isn’t whether we would know them only from a specific work of fiction, but how much works of fiction have colored what we know-- or think we know about them. Also, in most cases, there are many, many works about these people, but the OP of the name may have given just one as an example; that doesn’t mean the poster was suggesting that everything we know about the person comes from that one work. Also, answers are going to differ among countries. I’m sure that in the UK, children learn about Eleanor of Aquitaine in school. Americans don’t. However, Katharine Hepburn is still very popular, and people who weren’t even alive when she made most of her films will still look for her, so a lot of Americans have seen _The Lion in Winter_, and that’s their introduction to Eleanor of Aquitaine. Also, there is a less-known version of the film with Glenn Close, but it’s more recent, so people who may not have seen the Hepburn version may have seen the Close version. There are probably American historical figures that Americans learn about in school, but people in the UK would not know about, save for a movie. I really don’t know who that might be off-hand, though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-figures-whose-fictionalized-versions-have-surpassed-them-in-importance/692293.md?page=5)