# Historical inaccuracies that are not minor **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 16, 2012, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-inaccuracies-that-are-not-minor/622057 "2012-05-16T03:11:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-inaccuracies-that-are-not-minor/622057/121 "2012-05-19T22:46:31Z")
Probably not a major inaccuracy, but an interesting one revealed just this week: in the movie _Coal Miner’s Daughter_, based on the memoir of the same name of course, it was canon that Loretta Lynn married when she was 13, had a baby at 14, was a mother of 4 by 18. Turns out she shaved three years off of her age somewhere along the line, so while still ridiculously young for marriage and maternity (at least by most people’s standards), she was [actually 15/almost 16](http://news.yahoo.com/apnewsbreak-loretta-lynn-married-15-not-13-181403949.html) when she married, and add a few years to the rest. (I’ve read that she was a grandmother at 29, but other accounts put that a couple of years or more older- now it turns out she was a wizened old lady of 34 or so before she was a grandma.) ---
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-inaccuracies-that-are-not-minor/622057/122 "2012-05-19T23:39:49Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > Not by the standards of the day it wouldn’t. In a world where you were lucky to live to 40 or 45, people got married and started having children at a very young age. Nonsense. The mean age for those marrying for the first time in early-modern England was about 23 for women and about 26 for men. That was because there were strong social pressures against couples marrying before the groom was financially independent and able to set up his own household. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-inaccuracies-that-are-not-minor/622057/123 "2012-05-20T02:44:20Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > In any case, there’s no reason to believe he poisoned Mozart, hated God because of Mozart, ro was obsessed in any way with Mozart. He was in fact known as a very good natured and generous old man who doted on his many children and grandchildren. Hm. That’s a **big** inaccuracy – _Amadeus_ portrays Salieri as (so far as we can see) a lifelong bachelor. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-inaccuracies-that-are-not-minor/622057/124 "2012-05-20T02:49:10Z")
> [@](#): > > Mozart had a big income until his dying day. If he wasn’t an 18th century ‘One-percenter’ he would most certainly have been a ‘ten percenter’ and probably way better than that. His income came from royalties, students, commissions, and other sources, but, while it’s hard to translate 18th century sums into 21st century, he probably would have been earning well into the six figures, certainly as much as a prosperous doctor or lawyer, probably as much as Salieri. Oddly enough, I spent about a 1/2-hour one day trying to figure out Mozart’s yearly earnings. The closest I could get to was relating his income to the then-cost of bread, and doing a simple conversion. Not very scientific, but there you go. Anyway, Mozart’s best year financially was the year he died - by my “bread calculations” he earned well in excess of $500,000 that year, and in no year in Vienna did he ever make less than $100k-equivalent. Earning figures come from _Mozart: A Life_, by Solomon. > [@](#): > > As for the unmarked grave: that wasn’t necessarily due to indigence, and it wasn’t uncommon. Private graves in Vienna were extremely expensive and rare. (They still are: John Banner, the actor who played Sgt. Schulz on Hogan’s Heroes, was only buried in Vienna for a few years- his remains were later moved to another place outside the city, a very common practice in many old cities that just don’t have much grave space.) There was also a ban on burying people in the city at the time, part of the Emperor’s program to “rationalize” funerals. In addition, very few non-nobles had marked graves at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-inaccuracies-that-are-not-minor/622057/125 "2012-05-20T08:05:58Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Hm. That’s a **big** inaccuracy – _Amadeus_ portrays Salieri as (so far as we can see) a lifelong bachelor. The movie does. The play makes passing reference to his wife (she’s seen but not heard); he calls her “La Statuosa” because she is so “virtuous and… rigid”. In the play the ingenue he is horrified to learn has been seduced my Mozart eventually becomes his mistress once he becomes “Evil Salieri”. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-inaccuracies-that-are-not-minor/622057/126 "2012-05-20T13:50:15Z")
A big income and and even bigger debt are hardly incompatable, especially in an era when people sought to maintain stations in society that required almost limitless funds. If you were a wealthy commoner you spent like a baron, if you were a count you spent like a duke, if you were a duke you spent like the crown prince, etc. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-inaccuracies-that-are-not-minor/622057/127 "2012-05-20T20:20:59Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > A big income and and even bigger debt are hardly incompatable, especially in an era when people sought to maintain stations in society that required almost limitless funds. If you were a wealthy commoner you spent like a baron, if you were a count you spent like a duke, if you were a duke you spent like the crown prince, etc. That’s the impression one always gets from reading Thackeray, anyway. **No** character seems capable of living within his means, and the debtors’ prison always looms. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-inaccuracies-that-are-not-minor/622057/128 "2012-05-20T20:29:52Z")
> [@APB](#): > > Nonsense. The mean age for those marrying for the first time in early-modern England was about 23 for women and about 26 for men. That was because there were strong social pressures against couples marrying before the groom was financially independent and able to set up his own household. Which is one reason why, on average, the man was generally older than the woman. If there’s one thing I’ve learned studying history, it’s that averages can be misleading. I would imagine there was great variation between the city and the countryside, and between one class and another. I know of a number of cases throughout Europe and the American colonies (and early United States) where the man was considerably senior to his wife, and she married while still in her teens. There’s also a famous 19th-century painting of a wedding in a Russian Orthodox church, in which the groom is clearly middle-aged and his bride is maybe 14. Such matches were far more common than one today might think. ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-inaccuracies-that-are-not-minor/622057/129 "2012-05-20T20:46:19Z")
Is this the painting? [http://www.google.com/imgres?q=Boyar's+wedding&hl=en&biw=1024&bih=681&gbv=2&tbm=isch&tbnid=OPSzoQV8Iu-txM:&imgrefurl=http://pandora.cii.wwu.edu/vajda/russ110/htm\_images/slide\_18.htm&docid=fgk6yhHGyGucbM&imgurl=http://pandora.cii.wwu.edu/vajda/russ110/images/slides/H2\_003\_4.jpg&w=531&h=375&ei=L1e5T9HPG6fM2gWV7NXCCQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=311&vpy=155&dur=3408&hovh=189&hovw=267&tx=132&ty=94&sig=116422140983317025504&page=1&tbnh=141&tbnw=195&start=0&ndsp=13&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0,i:76](http://www.google.com/imgres?q=Boyar%27s+wedding&hl=en&biw=1024&bih=681&gbv=2&tbm=isch&tbnid=OPSzoQV8Iu-txM:&imgrefurl=http://pandora.cii.wwu.edu/vajda/russ110/htm_images/slide_18.htm&docid=fgk6yhHGyGucbM&imgurl=http://pandora.cii.wwu.edu/vajda/russ110/images/slides/H2_003_4.jpg&w=531&h=375&ei=L1e5T9HPG6fM2gWV7NXCCQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=311&vpy=155&dur=3408&hovh=189&hovw=267&tx=132&ty=94&sig=116422140983317025504&page=1&tbnh=141&tbnw=195&start=0&ndsp=13&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0,i:76) ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-inaccuracies-that-are-not-minor/622057/130 "2012-05-20T21:04:01Z")
> [@Baker](#): > > Is this the painting? > > [http://www.google.com/imgres?q=Boyar's+wedding&hl=en&biw=1024&bih=681&gbv=2&tbm=isch&tbnid=OPSzoQV8Iu-txM:&imgrefurl=http://pandora.cii.wwu.edu/vajda/russ110/htm\_images/slide\_18.htm&docid=fgk6yhHGyGucbM&imgurl=http://pandora.cii.wwu.edu/vajda/russ110/images/slides/H2\_003\_4.jpg&w=531&h=375&ei=L1e5T9HPG6fM2gWV7NXCCQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=311&vpy=155&dur=3408&hovh=189&hovw=267&tx=132&ty=94&sig=116422140983317025504&page=1&tbnh=141&tbnw=195&start=0&ndsp=13&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0,i:76](http://www.google.com/imgres?q=Boyar%27s+wedding&hl=en&biw=1024&bih=681&gbv=2&tbm=isch&tbnid=OPSzoQV8Iu-txM:&imgrefurl=http://pandora.cii.wwu.edu/vajda/russ110/htm_images/slide_18.htm&docid=fgk6yhHGyGucbM&imgurl=http://pandora.cii.wwu.edu/vajda/russ110/images/slides/H2_003_4.jpg&w=531&h=375&ei=L1e5T9HPG6fM2gWV7NXCCQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=311&vpy=155&dur=3408&hovh=189&hovw=267&tx=132&ty=94&sig=116422140983317025504&page=1&tbnh=141&tbnw=195&start=0&ndsp=13&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0,i:76) No. The painting I’m thinking of (I only know the title in Russian and can’t remember it right offhand) is clearly set in the 19th century. Here’s one that looks early 19th century, but it’s still not the one I’m thinking of. > **[Redirect Notice](https://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&sa=X&biw=1366&bih=667&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=5dtDDQgiejjVzM:&imgrefurl=http:%2F%2Fornamentedbeing.tumblr.com%2Fpage%2F299&docid=xl-KXykRx1ejRM&imgurl=http:%2F%2F30.media.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_lhiclbHQjb1qegasto1_500.jpg&w=500&h=627&ei=k1y5T9qGB8mG-wbqzojICg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=805&vpy=91&dur=5650&hovh=251&hovw=200&tx=97&ty=136&sig=109206773418432281726&page=1&tbnh=145&tbnw=143&start=0&ndsp=19&ved=1t:429,r:9,s:0,i:94)** ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-inaccuracies-that-are-not-minor/622057/131 "2012-05-20T21:20:37Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > (Kubrick’s _Barry Lyndon_ portrayed that differently --when Lyndon and his stepson Lord Bullingdon have a duel, they start out several paces apart and shoot in turns, tossing a coin to see who gets to shoot first, which is apparently SOP.) Nitpick. Bullingdon shoots first because he is the aggrieved party. There is no coin toss. Seems backwards to me since it rewards the aggressor in a duel situation. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-inaccuracies-that-are-not-minor/622057/132 "2012-05-20T21:29:53Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > No. The painting I’m thinking of (I only know the title in Russian and can’t remember it right offhand) is clearly set in the 19th century. > > Here’s one that looks early 19th century, but it’s still not the one I’m thinking of. > > [http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&sa=X&biw=1366&bih=667&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=5dtDDQgiejjVzM:&imgrefurl=http://ornamentedbeing.tumblr.com/page/299&docid=xl-KXykRx1ejRM&imgurl=http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr\_lhiclbHQjb1qegasto1\_500.jpg&w=500&h=627&ei=k1y5T9qGB8mG-wbqzojICg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=805&vpy=91&dur=5650&hovh=251&hovw=200&tx=97&ty=136&sig=109206773418432281726&page=1&tbnh=145&tbnw=143&start=0&ndsp=19&ved=1t:429,r:9,s:0,i:94](http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&sa=X&biw=1366&bih=667&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=5dtDDQgiejjVzM:&imgrefurl=http://ornamentedbeing.tumblr.com/page/299&docid=xl-KXykRx1ejRM&imgurl=http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lhiclbHQjb1qegasto1_500.jpg&w=500&h=627&ei=k1y5T9qGB8mG-wbqzojICg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=805&vpy=91&dur=5650&hovh=251&hovw=200&tx=97&ty=136&sig=109206773418432281726&page=1&tbnh=145&tbnw=143&start=0&ndsp=19&ved=1t:429,r:9,s:0,i:94) Bonham Carter being Lady Jane Gray is 16th century tudor … and that is a still from a movie. Hm, that image originally linked is the most common image for boyaryshnya wedding with and without sarafan added and with and without 19th century. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-inaccuracies-that-are-not-minor/622057/133 "2012-05-20T21:32:54Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > Here’s one that looks early 19th century, but it’s still not the one I’m thinking of. > > [http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&sa=X&biw=1366&bih=667&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=5dtDDQgiejjVzM:&imgrefurl=http://ornamentedbeing.tumblr.com/page/299&docid=xl-KXykRx1ejRM&imgurl=http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr\_lhiclbHQjb1qegasto1\_500.jpg&w=500&h=627&ei=k1y5T9qGB8mG-wbqzojICg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=805&vpy=91&dur=5650&hovh=251&hovw=200&tx=97&ty=136&sig=109206773418432281726&page=1&tbnh=145&tbnw=143&start=0&ndsp=19&ved=1t:429,r:9,s:0,i:94](http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&sa=X&biw=1366&bih=667&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=5dtDDQgiejjVzM:&imgrefurl=http://ornamentedbeing.tumblr.com/page/299&docid=xl-KXykRx1ejRM&imgurl=http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lhiclbHQjb1qegasto1_500.jpg&w=500&h=627&ei=k1y5T9qGB8mG-wbqzojICg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=805&vpy=91&dur=5650&hovh=251&hovw=200&tx=97&ty=136&sig=109206773418432281726&page=1&tbnh=145&tbnw=143&start=0&ndsp=19&ved=1t:429,r:9,s:0,i:94) I just looked this one up. It was painted by Vasili Pukriev in 1862 and is titled “The Unequal Marriage.” The one I’m thinking of is much more elaborate and has a title like “Misfortune,” as I recall. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-inaccuracies-that-are-not-minor/622057/134 "2012-05-20T22:20:52Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > Which is one reason why, on average, the man was generally older than the woman. > > If there’s one thing I’ve learned studying history, it’s that averages can be misleading. I would imagine there was great variation between the city and the countryside, and between one class and another. > > I know of a number of cases throughout Europe and the American colonies (and early United States) where the man was considerably senior to his wife, and she married while still in her teens. There’s also a famous 19th-century painting of a wedding in a Russian Orthodox church, in which the groom is clearly middle-aged and his bride is maybe 14. Such matches were far more common than one today might think. Not a child-bride case, but [Frances Folsom](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frances_Folsom_Cleveland_Preston) married President Grover Cleveland when she was 21 and he was 49 (and practically her stepfather). Nobody appeared squicked at the time. What squicked people out (or so the Republicans claimed to be) was Cleveland (possibly) having [sired a bastard.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grover_Cleveland#Campaign_against_Blaine) ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-inaccuracies-that-are-not-minor/622057/135 "2012-05-20T22:37:36Z")
Marie Antoinette and the future Louis XVI were married at the ages of 15 and 16, respectively. As I say, it was common to marry young when the average life expectancy was around 45 (and for one man to go through several wives). ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-inaccuracies-that-are-not-minor/622057/136 "2012-05-20T23:03:23Z")
Only for the nobility and upper classes. For the rest, the man was expected to be able to support a familt before he got married. That meant becoming a journeyman in a craft, or establishing his own farmstead. The overwhelming majority of people **did not** marry young. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-inaccuracies-that-are-not-minor/622057/137 "2012-05-20T23:07:46Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > Marie Antoinette and the future Louis XVI were married at the ages of 15 and 16, respectively. As I say, it was common to marry young when the average life expectancy was around 45 (and for one man to go through several wives). And, of course, different rules/considerations always governed royal marriages. No need to wait for a prince to “get established” in life, he’d be married off whenever a diplomatically advantageous prospect was on the market. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-inaccuracies-that-are-not-minor/622057/138 "2012-05-20T23:38:53Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > Believe me, that was the least of U-571’s problems. The movie was pure unadulterated bullshit from beginning to end, the fantasy of some 1990s Hollywood hack scriptwriter. It pisses me off that some people actually take it as history when it most certainly ain’t! U-571 wasn’t a hugely successful movie and the thing it’s most known for, really, is being historically inaccurate. I don’t think anyone’s been fooled. ---
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-inaccuracies-that-are-not-minor/622057/139 "2012-05-20T23:52:34Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Are you being Serious? You should go to Yahoo to check out your facts. Very nice, Chuck! \ ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-inaccuracies-that-are-not-minor/622057/140 "2012-05-21T00:31:32Z")
Contrary to what happened in the _Crucible_ John Proctor and Abigail Williams didn’t have an affair and were sixty and twelve respectively. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-inaccuracies-that-are-not-minor/622057.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-inaccuracies-that-are-not-minor/622057.md?page=8)