# Historical myths that reallly get on your tits **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 16, 2014, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-myths-that-reallly-get-on-your-tits/704744 "2014-11-16T02:14:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![jehan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f6c823/32.png) [@jehan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jehan)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-myths-that-reallly-get-on-your-tits/704744/181 "2014-11-20T02:06:17Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > He didn’t. Henry Tudor did. RIII had no motive, Tudor did- since he had no claim to the throne if they were alive. Not to mention Henry was well known for killing off claimants, and RIII wasn’t. Finally there’s the fact the Tudor didnt claim RIII killed the Princes until years had passed, after he had time to get rid of the evidence and witnesses. Richard reigned only 2 years- he didn’t have much time, but he did manage to kill off the Duke of Buckingham (who had a claim to the throne, although he never went for it), and execute several men without trial whom he felt threatened his authority-including several members of the dowager queen’s family. Henry had 24 years of reigning, and there were several threats to his throne in that time. What I don’t get is why people accept the “the boys were illegitimate” without question. The claim was made after he had the boys under his ‘protection’ in the tower. And the story doesn’t really hold up. Of course, everyone involved was conveniently dead, so the claim was easy to make. The woman whom Edward was supposedly married to was no minor peasant girl, but Eleanor Butler, of the Talbot family- the Earls of Shrewsbury, one of the most powerful families in the kingdom. And Eleanor lived into Edward’s reign for several years- why didn’t she or a member of her family say anything? She would have been the bloody Queen of England- and lord knows that the Woodvilles were unpopular enough that she could have made the claim stick. And she died several years into the reign (of natural causes), but before both boys were born, so he technically could have had a private wedding to seal his marriage to Elizabeth, if he was worried about such things, which he doesn’t appear to have been. So what is more likely, that a single cleric was encouraged/bribed/whatever to make such a claim, or that a well born woman (and her family) stood by and watched as another woman take the most important position in the land? And if they were illegitimate, which is doubtful- I don’t know why anyone thinks that they were no threat to Richard. Maybe not at that point, but given 4 or 5 years, unrest in the kingdom, and an army behind them- you bet they could have been a threat. Perkin Warbeck, an imposter to be sure, made a creditable attempt to claim the throne in Richard Duke of York’s name in the 1490s and caused Henry lots of trouble. Illegitimacy was no bar if you won the battle- after all Henry Vll’s claim was itself dubious, coming through an illegitimate line himself- his right was by conquest, and sealed through his marriage to the boys’ sister- but he always claimed to rule in his own right. It is possible that Henry didn’t make any claims as to the whereabouts of the princes because he didn’t know their fate. Henry certainly had motive to kill them if they were alive, and possibly he would have, but there is no evidence that anyone saw them alive after the summer of 1483. As to Richard not announcing their deaths during his reign- there were rumours that he had had them murdered circulating in London as early as July 1483- he must have been aware of them, and possibly wanted to wait for things to die down and make his claim secure- he only had 2 years, after all. It is also interesting that no contemporary of Henry Vll (not even his enemies) claimed that he was responsible for the murders. I’m no fan of Henry, but he was as much a man of his time as Richard. Both were ruthlessly ambitious. I don’t think that either of them would have hesitated to do what they had to do to secure their thrones. But if you want to pin the blame on Henry you must prove opportunity (they both had a motive). Where is the evidence that the boys were alive in 1485? ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-myths-that-reallly-get-on-your-tits/704744/182 "2014-11-20T02:23:17Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Egyptian medicine was considered the best in the ancient world … > > … which, sadly, wasn’t saying much. 😃 > > [Ancient Egyptian Medicine - Smith Papyrus - Ebers Papyrus](http://www.crystalinks.com/egyptmedicine.html) The Egyptians did, however, make an herbal concoction from willow bark that they thought was a decent painkiller. It turns out that they were [right on track](http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/12/22/aspirin.history/) with that. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-myths-that-reallly-get-on-your-tits/704744/183 "2014-11-20T03:01:52Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > The original saying was in french, and used the term “brioche”. Nothing that sounded like cake. > > Also, Marie never said it. The quote is from Rousseau, who wrote it when Marie was… 9 years old. > [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > It’s not quite in the same league vis a vis historical importance as “The New Deal didn’t end the Depression” or “Hitler was an atheist”, but one that irritates me is “Each clan in the Scottish Highlands had its own unique tartan, worn only by members of that particular clan, and it was possible to identify a man just by looking at his plaid.” “Official” clan tartans date to 1842, from [a book](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vestiarium_Scoticum) that is widely believed a hoax and written by two colorful brothers. Glad my ancestors (well 1/16 or less of me) ended up with one of the more functional/less gaudy tartans, though. ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lichtman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeff_lichtman/32/1531_2.png) [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-myths-that-reallly-get-on-your-tits/704744/184 "2014-11-20T03:17:29Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > Was that a typo? What sort of idiot _slides_ into the only base you’re allowed to overrun? It happened in this year’s World Series. You can see the play [here](http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/big-league-stew/first-world-series-replay-reversal-gives-giants-spectacular-double-play-015839756.html). The first base umpire called the runner safe, but the call was overturned on review. He probably would have been safe if he had just run across the bag. This happens more often than you might think. I see it a few times a season just in the games I attend. The only time it makes sense to slide into first is to avoid a tag (e.g. when the throw has pulled the first baseman off the bag). ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-myths-that-reallly-get-on-your-tits/704744/185 "2014-11-20T03:19:48Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > The quote is from Rousseau, who wrote it when Marie was… 9 years old. Which may or may not have been a riff on an earlier quote by a Chinese Emperor. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-myths-that-reallly-get-on-your-tits/704744/186 "2014-11-20T03:22:06Z")
> [@Grestarian](#): > > The explanation I read about this, way back in 1982, was an excerpt from some Journal of Ancient French Language that the local newspaper was quoting. The researcher had (re)discovered the term\* \*kheke \*which was already antiquated at the time but refers to the crumby coating on the inside of a bread pan or the bottom of an oven after you remove the bread that was baked therein. The point was that the foreign-born queen wasn’t so stupid as to say, “If they don’t have bread, let them eat cake.” but was pragmatically telling the palace cooks “They are begging for bread so give them the dregs, discards, and crumbs from the royal ovens.” which repaints the incident as a less airheaded (though not necessarily more compassionate) response to the situation. Regardless, her response only served to piss off the masses that much more. > > Like the researcher’s explanation, the more favorable view of Marie Antoinette returned to being buried under the more entertaining mythology. > –G > \*My apologies, I did not study French, I cannot remember the proper spelling. > [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > The original saying was in french, and used the term “brioche”. Nothing that sounded like cake. > > Also, Marie never said it. I’ve also read the phrase “Let them eat cake” appeared in a play that was written and performed a full 20 years before Marie Antoinette was born and that that’s where the masses really got it from. The rabble of the day somehow confused it as having come from her. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-myths-that-reallly-get-on-your-tits/704744/187 "2014-11-20T08:46:19Z")
> [@Jeff\_Lichtman](#): > > It happened in this year’s World Series. You can see the play [here](http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/big-league-stew/first-world-series-replay-reversal-gives-giants-spectacular-double-play-015839756.html). The first base umpire called the runner safe, but the call was overturned on review. He probably would have been safe if he had just run across the bag. > > This happens more often than you might think. I see it a few times a season just in the games I attend. The only time it makes sense to slide into first is to avoid a tag (e.g. when the throw has pulled the first baseman off the bag). The purpose of sliding is not to be faster but to be evasive. ---
**Author:** ![vontsira](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/51bf81/32.png) [@vontsira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vontsira)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-myths-that-reallly-get-on-your-tits/704744/188 "2014-11-20T10:01:15Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > Shakespeare was Catholic. > [@Steken](#): > > Do we know his religious affiliation, one way or the other? > [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Nominally Anglican, like everyone else at the time who wanted some semblance of respectability. I don’t know this particular myth, but presumably it posits he was closeted Catholic. From what I understand – yes: those who hold this notion see him as outwardly conforming religiously, keeping his Catholicism secret. This matter is mentioned by Bill Bryson in his book on Shakespeare (IMO, one of Bryson’s more worthwhile and less “out-there” works): including the possibility raised, that Shakespeare’s father may have been likewise a secret Catholic. Tantalisingly little is known about Shakespeare’s personal life, in comparison with those of many prominent personages of his day – people seem to be irresistibly drawn to all kinds of speculation about him, on evidence which is flimsy at best: as, the endless business about its not having been “Shakespeare who wrote Shakespeare”, but, one or more of a wide assortment of other figures. The general consensus of opinion is that his writings give little sign of strong religious involvement on his part – their main focus being on secular issues. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-myths-that-reallly-get-on-your-tits/704744/189 "2014-11-20T10:07:49Z")
> [@Lemmytheseal2](#): > > If they weren’t technically owned, they weren’t technically slaves. > [@CarnalK](#): > > Technically that merely makes them temporary slaves. Yeah, they were told they were free every night after the work was done. As free men, they were allowed to find their own place to eat and sleep for the night. Then tomorrow morning, they had to show up and go back to being slaves for the workday. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-myths-that-reallly-get-on-your-tits/704744/190 "2014-11-20T14:22:49Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > The purpose of sliding is not to be faster but to be evasive. Probably would have helped if I said “Diving head first into first base does not make you get there quicker” instead of ‘sliding head first’ ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-myths-that-reallly-get-on-your-tits/704744/191 "2014-11-20T15:20:21Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > **The McDonald’s coffee lawsuit.** People always bring this up as an example of a frivolous lawsuit, and what an idiot this woman was, suing for millions because her coffee was hot!!1?? > > Well actually, the coffee was 190 degrees so what you are saying is, the coffee was hot? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-myths-that-reallly-get-on-your-tits/704744/192 "2014-11-20T16:31:23Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > The Egyptians did, however, make an herbal concoction from willow bark that they thought was a decent painkiller. It turns out that they were [right on track](http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/12/22/aspirin.history/) with that. Nope. Wrong. Yes, Willow bark does contain the stuff we make aspirin from. But it also tears up your stomach like crazy, thus was a very poor herbal. You simply dont cure a headache by punching someone in the gut repeatedly. ---
**Author:** ![Lemmytheseal2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/82dd89/32.png) [@Lemmytheseal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemmytheseal2)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-myths-that-reallly-get-on-your-tits/704744/193 "2014-11-20T16:37:05Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Granted, sometimes they also were his sister. Everybody’s a critic… That depends on which Pharaoh we’re talking about, but yes, that’s true also. > [@Malthus](#): > > Egyptian medicine was considered the best in the ancient world … > > … which, sadly, wasn’t saying much. 😃 > > [Ancient Egyptian Medicine - Smith Papyrus - Ebers Papyrus](http://www.crystalinks.com/egyptmedicine.html) > [@Malthus](#): > > 😃 When I was a kid I read The Usborne book of World History again and again. There was a part about the funerary practices of Egypt’s ruling class, and it began with a nobleman dying “despite the work of the doctors and the prayers of the priests.” I always found that phrasing funny, inasmuch as it meant that the prayers actually worked sometimes! And yet people find atheism strange… > [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > You’re going too far in the other direction, now. There isn’t an economist alive who would claim that the New Deal ended the Depression. No, but it helped, unlike the war, which was a time of rationing and shortages, as great wealth was destroyed again and again for years. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-myths-that-reallly-get-on-your-tits/704744/194 "2014-11-20T16:40:59Z")
Ben Franklin “wanted the turkey to be the national bird.” ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-myths-that-reallly-get-on-your-tits/704744/195 "2014-11-20T16:49:10Z")
> [@Lemmytheseal2](#): > > When I was a kid I read The Usborne book of World History again and again. There was a part about the funerary practices of Egypt’s ruling class, and it began with a nobleman dying “despite the work of the doctors and the prayers of the priests.” I always found that phrasing funny, inasmuch as it meant that the prayers actually worked sometimes! And yet people find atheism strange… I got one better than that, in our own Royal Ontario Museum magazine promoting an upcomming exhibit of South American golden statues - the text claimed that these statues were of the local ancient kingdom’s “imaginary gods”. My wife pointed that one out to me, with the comment "there is another kind of gods? :dubious: " 😃 Ever since then, it has been an in-joke in my family to swear by the “imaginary gods”. Hit your thumb with a hammer? “Oh, by all the imaginary gods!!!” ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-myths-that-reallly-get-on-your-tits/704744/196 "2014-11-20T17:03:01Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > **The McDonald’s coffee lawsuit.** People always bring this up as an example of a frivolous lawsuit, and what an idiot this woman was, suing for millions because her coffee was hot!!1?? > > Well actually, the coffee was 190 degrees And that McDonald’s had previously been cited by the health department for serving their coffee too hot, and been specifically instructed to turn it down, but didn’t. > [@](#): > > The jury ended up awarding her $160,000 plus $2.7 million in punitive damages, which ended up being reduced to less than $600,000. According to a cousin of mine, who is a lawyer, the jury didn’t actually come up with “$2,700,000” as a damage figure, but actually said something like “What McDonald’s regional earns on coffee in a week,” thinking that it would be in the $200,000 area, but it was close to $3 million. It was reduced to something closer to what the jury intended. > [@](#): > > So no, it wasn’t a frivolous case, and the plaintiff was in fact very reasonable in what she was asking for. Not at all. According to the woman’s daughter, her mother’s quality of life was permanently affected for the worse by this incident. She died not too many years after it happened. > [@](#): > > **The murder of Kitty Genovese and the “bystander effect.”** Did you know that almost 40 people watched a woman get stabbed and raped from their apartment complex and no one did anything or called 9-1-1 because they all thought someone else would do it!!? > > Uh no, because that’s not really what happened. The “Bystander Effect” is real, and there is a lot of research into it, it just wasn’t in play here. That TV show was really good, albeit, people have been debunking the reporter’s story for about 15 years. I think that show will have a big impact, though. Maybe psychology 101 professors will stop using the Kitty Genovese case an an example of the Bystander Effect. When you think about it, the Bystander Effect is just an extension of learning behavior through observation. If everyone else is hiding from the stampeding aurochs, maybe you should too. If no one else is concerned about someone behaving oddly, maybe you don’t need to be-- and that is often true. If you are new in town, and you walk through the downtown area where everyone is ignoring a homeless guy shouting a bunch of weird stuff, chances are he’s a fixture, and isn’t hurting himself or anyone, so you should ignore him too. That doesn’t mean the Bystander Effect doesn’t occasionally lead to disaster, but it usually takes training to be the kind of person who can sort out a genuine crisis being ignored from people correctly gauging an odd situation as not a problem. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-myths-that-reallly-get-on-your-tits/704744/197 "2014-11-20T17:07:33Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I got one better than that, in our own Royal Ontario Museum magazine promoting an upcomming exhibit of South American golden statues - the text claimed that these statues were of the local ancient kingdom’s “imaginary gods”. > > My wife pointed that one out to me, with the comment "there is another kind of gods? :dubious: " 😃 I’m sure there’s some backstory where someone complained about the pagan display, and that people might mistake those idols for “real” gods. ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-myths-that-reallly-get-on-your-tits/704744/198 "2014-11-20T17:27:13Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > . . . . According to the woman’s daughter, her mother’s quality of life was permanently affected for the worse by this incident. She died not too many years after it happened. . . . She was 79 when it happend, and died at age 91. Sounds like she had a pretty good run. And regardless of the coffee temp, it was a dumb idea to put a flimsy coffee cup between your legs, as she had done. ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lichtman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeff_lichtman/32/1531_2.png) [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-myths-that-reallly-get-on-your-tits/704744/199 "2014-11-20T17:59:48Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > The purpose of sliding is not to be faster but to be evasive. Sliding has two purposes: to be evasive, and to get to a base quickly without going past it. Say a runner from first knows there’s going to be a close play at second. If he goes in standing up, he’ll have to start slowing down several steps before he reaches the base. He can get to the base faster by sliding - it’s the equivalent of slamming on the brakes at the last instant. There’s no reason to do this when running to first because you’re allowed to overrun the base. Why slam on the brakes to stop at the last instant when you don’t have to stop at all? This applies to diving at the bag as well. As soon as you start to dive your legs stop driving you forward. You slow down a little, although not as much as if you slide. You’re better off running across first base than you are diving at it, unless you’re trying to avoid a tag. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-myths-that-reallly-get-on-your-tits/704744/200 "2014-11-20T18:43:22Z")
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