# Historical suicides **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 22, 2015, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-suicides/732203 "2015-09-22T13:35:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![blood63](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/97f17d/32.png) [@blood63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blood63)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2015, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-suicides/732203/1 "2015-09-22T13:35:43Z")
I am wondering how common suicides were historically. I know that Socrates might be the most famous ancient suicide but he did not kill himself because of depression but more so to make a point. In Roman times, people killed themselves to avoid having their family property confiscated by the state if they were accused of treason. In modern times, suicide is predominantly associated with depression. How common were these types of suicides in the past? ---
**Author:** ![Ignotus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ecc23a/32.png) [@Ignotus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ignotus)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2015, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-suicides/732203/2 "2015-09-22T14:11:52Z")
Socrates did not commit suicide; he was sentenced to death and given the option to take the poison in prison (had he refused, he would certainly have been executed by some other, probably less dignifying method). Plenty of famous people in antiquity did commit (sometimes assisted) suicide, for example Mithridates, Hannibal and Nero; usually to avoid falling into the hands of their enemies. ---
**Author:** ![D18](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@D18](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D18)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2015, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-suicides/732203/3 "2015-09-22T14:27:06Z")
There were many copy-cat suicides following the publication of _The Sorrows of Young Werther_ by Goethe. In the novel, Werther killed himself having been rejected by a woman and it became a thing to mimic his dress (yellow pants and blue coat) and shoot yourself.\* I know you didn’t ask about copy-cat suicides per se, but it does point out one historical time in which suicides were, well, I don’t know if common is the right word, but happened. Details [here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copycat_suicide). \*Whether or not wearing that god-awful colour combination causes suicidal thoughts has not been established, to the best of my knowledge. ---
**Author:** ![blood63](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/97f17d/32.png) [@blood63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blood63)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2015, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-suicides/732203/4 "2015-09-22T16:49:47Z")
> [@Ignotus](#): > > Socrates did not commit suicide; he was sentenced to death and given the option to take the poison in prison (had he refused, he would certainly have been executed by some other, probably less dignifying method). > Plenty of famous people in antiquity did commit (sometimes assisted) suicide, for example Mithridates, Hannibal and Nero; usually to avoid falling into the hands of their enemies. Point taken with regards to Socrates. Nero did not commit suicide, he was killed by his servant by his own command because he could not do it himself. A fine point I admit. His enemies were the Senate of Rome not an outside force. He did not want his family to lose their property. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2015, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-suicides/732203/5 "2015-09-22T17:15:41Z")
Suicide was not uncommon in the Japanese military during WWII when things went pear-shaped: > **[Kunio Nakagawa](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunio_Nakagawa)** > > World War II > Kunio Nakagawa (中川 州男, Nakagawa Kunio, 23 January 1898 – 24 November 1944) was the commander of Japanese forces which defended the island of Peleliu in the Battle of Peleliu which took place from 15 September to 27 November 1944. He inflicted heavy losses on attacking U.S. Marines and held Peleliu Island for almost three months. On the evening of 24 November, after the battle was lost, he performed seppuku (ritual suicide) in the tradition of Japanese samurai warriors. He was post... > **[Korechika Anami](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korechika_Anami)** > > Korechika Anami (阿南 惟幾, Anami Korechika, 21 February 1887 – 15 August 1945) was a general in the Imperial Japanese Army during World War II who was War Minister during the surrender of Japan. > Anami was born in Taketa city in Ōita Prefecture, where his father was a senior bureaucrat in the Home Ministry and grew up in Tokyo and in Tokushima Prefecture. He attended the 18th class of the Imperial Japanese Army Academy and was commissioned as a second lieutenant in the Infantry in December 1906. > In... > **[Mitsuru Ushijima](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsuru_Ushijima)** > > Mitsuru Ushijima (牛島 満, Ushijima Mitsuru, 31 July 1887 – 22 June 1945) was a Japanese general who served during the Second Sino-Japanese War and World War II. He was the commanding general of the 32nd Army, which fought in the Battle of Okinawa during the final stages of the war. Ushijima's troops were defeated, and at the end of the battle he committed suicide. > Ushijima was born in Kagoshima city, where his father had been a samurai in the service of Satsuma Domain and later a career officer i... ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2015, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-suicides/732203/6 "2015-09-22T17:44:25Z")
[Meriwether Lewis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meriweather_Lewis), of the Lewis and Clark expedition, suffered from depression and most probably committed suicide. There has been some controversy about whether he might have been murdered, but his contemporaries Thomas Jefferson and William Clark, as well as many historians, accepted that he died of self-inflicted gunshot wounds. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2015, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-suicides/732203/7 "2015-09-22T18:53:47Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > [Meriwether Lewis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meriweather_Lewis), of the Lewis and Clark expedition, suffered from depression and most probably committed suicide. There has been some controversy about whether he might have been murdered, but his contemporaries Thomas Jefferson and William Clark, as well as many historians, accepted that he died of self-inflicted gunshot wounds. How many bullets does it take to commit suicide? ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2015, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-suicides/732203/8 "2015-09-22T18:59:10Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > How many bullets does it take to commit suicide? In his case two; one to the head and one to the abdomen. There are many reasons why some people still question if it was really suicide. The general consensus is that it was. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2015, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-suicides/732203/9 "2015-09-22T19:07:43Z")
> [@D18](#): > > \*Whether or not wearing that god-awful colour combination causes suicidal thoughts has not been established, to the best of my knowledge. Seems to have been popular in [Southern](http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/getty/2011/09000d5d8201f90a_gallery_600.jpg) [California](http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/multimedia/photo_gallery/0806/history.june10/images/dan-fouts.jpg) for a time. ---
**Author:** ![blood63](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/97f17d/32.png) [@blood63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blood63)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-suicides/732203/10 "2015-09-23T12:59:11Z")
I am specifically interested if suicides were a common event in the past, as they are now, and, if depression was a leading cause. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-suicides/732203/11 "2015-09-23T13:47:42Z")
> [@blood63](#): > > I am specifically interested if suicides were a common event in the past, as they are now, and, if depression was a leading cause. As you go back in history, the problem becomes one of records. If a farmer got depressed and ate poison or jumped off a cliff, only his family cared, and no one wrote it down. When a minor servant died, who would care to even enquire about the cause unless it looked like murder. Suicide was shameful and would have been covered up - burial in a churchyard was not allowed for suicides. ---
**Author:** ![Hermitian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hermitian/32/470_2.png) [@Hermitian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hermitian)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-suicides/732203/12 "2015-09-23T17:44:08Z")
It reminds me of a quote from the physics textbook, States of Matter “Ludwig Boltzmann, who spent much of his life studying statistical mechanics, died in 1906, by his own hand. Paul Ehrenfest, carrying on the work, died similarly in 1933. Now it is our turn to study statistical mechanics. Perhaps it will be wise to approach the subject cautiously.” ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-suicides/732203/13 "2015-09-23T18:21:15Z")
[Seven Suicides in the Bible](https://bible.org/illustration/seven-suicides-bible) ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-suicides/732203/14 "2015-09-23T18:35:25Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Seems to have been popular in [Southern](http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/getty/2011/09000d5d8201f90a_gallery_600.jpg) [California](http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/multimedia/photo_gallery/0806/history.june10/images/dan-fouts.jpg) for a time. Not to mention UCLA ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-suicides/732203/15 "2015-09-23T19:04:28Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > [Seven Suicides in the Bible](https://bible.org/illustration/seven-suicides-bible) would I get a mod warning if I broached the topic of suicide by cop? Of course, I’m referring to the historical figure of [Hans Kohlhaus,](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Kohlhase) who, in a fit of pique, set himself as the enemy of the state against impossible odds. The name and the story may be familiar: E. L. Doctorow used it for Ragtime. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-suicides/732203/16 "2015-09-23T19:17:13Z")
> [@D18](#): > > There were many copy-cat suicides following the publication of _The Sorrows of Young Werther_ by Goethe. In the novel, Werther killed himself having been rejected by a woman and it became a thing to mimic his dress (yellow pants and blue coat) and shoot yourself.\* I know you didn’t ask about copy-cat suicides per se, but it does point out one historical time in which suicides were, well, I don’t know if common is the right word, but happened. > > Details [here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copycat_suicide). Max Beerbohm’s \*\*\*Zuleika Dobson \*\*\*was a satire that mocked such romantic suicides. ---
**Author:** ![D18](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@D18](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D18)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-suicides/732203/17 "2015-09-23T23:51:45Z")
I’ll have to check that out. I absolutely loath that trope in literature! (And FWIW am not a big fan IRL, either. Just in case that wasn’t clear.)😉 ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-suicides/732203/18 "2015-09-24T01:14:42Z")
> [@blood63](#): > > I am specifically interested if suicides were a common event in the past, as they are now, and, if depression was a leading cause. Part of the problem is that due to lack of documentation and shame a lot of suicides were probably never reported or were covered up. Many muslim countries have low suicide rates about 10x lower than the US, but how much of that is due to the fact that suicide is covered up? Either the suicidal person finds a way to kill themselves that makes it look like it wasn’t suicide or the coroner covers it up. > **[List of countries by suicide rate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate)** > > The following are lists of countries by estimated suicide rates as published by the World Health Organization (WHO) and other sources.\[note 1\] > In many countries, suicide rates are underreported due to social stigma, cultural or legal concerns. Thus, these figures cannot be used to compare real suicide rates, which are unknown in most countries. > The global total of suicide deaths decreased from an estimated 762,000 in 2000 to 717,000 in 2021, which is 9.1 deaths per 100,000 population. In hig... ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-suicides/732203/19 "2015-09-24T04:28:44Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Part of the problem is that due to lack of documentation and shame a lot of suicides were probably never reported or were covered up. Many muslim countries have low suicide rates about 10x lower than the US, but how much of that is due to the fact that suicide is covered up? Either the suicidal person finds a way to kill themselves that makes it look like it wasn’t suicide or the coroner covers it up. > > [List of countries by suicide rate - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate) Pure speculation without any cites. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-suicides/732203/20 "2015-09-24T04:40:24Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Pure speculation without any cites. Do you know what the little brackets with numbers inside them are? Those are sources. In particular, [GHO | By category | Suicide rate estimates, crude - Estimates by country](http://apps.who.int/gho/data/node.main.MHSUICIDE?lang=en). [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-suicides/732203.md?page=2)