# Historical suicides **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 22, 2015, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-suicides/732203 "2015-09-22T13:35:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-suicides/732203/21 "2015-09-24T06:11:45Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > Do you know what the little brackets with numbers inside them are? Those are sources. In particular, [GHO | By category | Suicide rate estimates, crude - Estimates by country](http://apps.who.int/gho/data/node.main.MHSUICIDE?lang=en). Maybe you could explain what Neo Natal death rates have to do with the OP? The point stands. If the poster has some evidence that the rates are under reported than please he should share. ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-suicides/732203/22 "2015-09-24T07:58:15Z")
A car veers off the road and into a lake. Accident or suicide? Especially when the ‘accident’ is not known - the person just disappeared until somebody stumbles across the rotting remains of the car. Single-occupant car hits tree. This one can be easy - are there skid marks showing braking? Yes, they do look for them - esp. insurance agents. Suicide by airplane is always a possibility - and will go unreported unless you take 150 other people with you. If there is no note (why do suicides always well obliged to leave a note?), the report is likely to be ‘accident’. So, yea, I’m going to guess ‘under-reported’. ---
**Author:** ![blood63](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/97f17d/32.png) [@blood63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blood63)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-suicides/732203/23 "2015-09-24T13:38:26Z")
So i guess as the stigma of depression is reduced in society, the rate of reported suicide increases. Or is it the other way around? ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-suicides/732203/24 "2015-09-24T14:43:42Z")
I also attribute some suicide, like crazy murder-suicides, serial killers, etc - as a social disease of the affluent. In poor settings today, and in past society generally, few people had the opportunity to live in isolation; much as someone living 6 to a small apartment don’t have the opportunity to sulk alone in the rec room playing video games the way suburban kids can. They are forced to socialize and interact, which probably goes a long way to mitigating _some_ mental issues and antisocial tendencies. But yes, I suspect depression and Schizophrenia and many other afflictions leading to suicide are as common back then as today. But as mentioned, suicide was a mortal sin (i.e. suicides could not be buried in hallowed ground?) so it was probably hushed up where possible. Without firearms or rat poisons or other typical modern products, the opportunities were probably fewer; and without forensics, poison was hard to prove. The more prominent suicides probably relate to how vicious society could be. In societies where crucifixion, burning at the stake, and similar creative slow execution methods were common, the royally screwed probably found it advantageous to bypass that option. ---
**Author:** ![Mikeisskeptical](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@Mikeisskeptical](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mikeisskeptical)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-suicides/732203/25 "2015-09-24T15:03:42Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > How many bullets does it take to commit suicide? Well didn’t Elliott Smith stab himself twice in the heart? ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-suicides/732203/26 "2015-09-24T15:14:48Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > The more prominent suicides probably relate to how vicious society could be. In societies where crucifixion, burning at the stake, and similar creative slow execution methods were common, the royally screwed probably found it advantageous to bypass that option. In ancient history, suicide is so ridiculously common that you stop even taking notice after a while. People are falling on their swords left and right. But it’s always suicide as the honorable or sensible way out after defeat in battle, or to avoid a worse fate. It is often considered admirable. Cato killed himself rather than giving Caesar a chance to pardon him (which was something Caesar loved doing, and, yes, it can backfire when everyone you pardon - spoiler alert - stab you at the Ides of March). That has made Cato a hero to a whole lot of people, ever since. But depression-related suicides isn’t really ever mentioned. The only example I can think of right now that might qualify, sort of, is the Roman Emperor Valentinian II. He was just a powerless figurehead, which apparently bummed him out massively, so he hung himself. Although it is possible that he was actually murdered. How long has depression even been recognized, as, well, a thing? _Googles_ The ancients did recognize [melancholia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_depression) as a thing. It seems to cover depression as well as other mental problems. Not sure if it was recognized as something that might lead to suicides, though. Although, when you think about it, it must be something that has always happened. So, good question. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-suicides/732203/27 "2015-09-24T15:59:17Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > But depression-related suicides isn’t really ever mentioned. The only example I can think of right now that might qualify, sort of, is the Roman Emperor Valentinian II. He was just a powerless figurehead, which apparently bummed him out massively, so he hung himself. Although it is possible that he was actually murdered. Judas’ suicide was clearly done in a state of despair. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-suicides/732203/28 "2015-09-24T16:09:43Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > Judas’ suicide was clearly done in a state of despair. True. Good one. > [@blood63](#): > > Nero did not commit suicide, he was killed by his servant by his own command because he could not do it himself. A fine point I admit. Yeah, that’s a pretty persnickety distinction. 😉 Personally, I’m cool with classifying that as “suicide by servant”. There’s quite a bit of that going around. Mithridates did a similar thing. Actually (for anyone unfamiliar with the story), his is a particularly delicious case. After spending his whole life making himself immune to poisons by taking antidotes as well as poisons in small, non-lethal amounts, Mithridates tried to kill himself using poison. Epic suicide fail. So he had a friend stab him instead. ---
**Author:** ![blood63](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/97f17d/32.png) [@blood63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blood63)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-suicides/732203/29 "2015-09-24T16:58:27Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > True. Good one. > Yeah, that’s a pretty persnickety distinction. 😉 Personally, I’m cool with classifying that as “suicide by servant”. There’s quite a bit of that going around. > > Mithridates did a similar thing. Actually (for anyone unfamiliar with the story), his is a particularly delicious case. After spending his whole life making himself immune to poisons by taking antidotes as well as poisons in small, non-lethal amounts, Mithridates tried to kill himself using poison. Epic suicide fail. So he had a friend stab him instead. Nero might have been “Suicide by servant” but not “suicide by depression”. I wonder how many death row inmates would choose a cyanide pill over capital punishment. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-suicides/732203/30 "2015-09-24T19:04:14Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Maybe you could explain what Neo Natal death rates have to do with the OP? > > The point stands. If the poster has some evidence that the rates are under reported than please he should share. What does the link I provided have to do with neo natal death rates? ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-suicides/732203/31 "2015-09-24T19:36:47Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > How many bullets does it take to commit suicide? In my college library, I once ran across a forensic pathology textbook. One of the weirder photos in the book was of a man who had shot himself in the head. Three times. The bullets put holes in his nose, sinuses, and jaw, but none of the wounds were fatal. He gave up on the gun and hung himself. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-suicides/732203/32 "2015-09-24T20:49:48Z")
> [@mbh](#): > > In my college library, I once ran across a forensic pathology textbook. One of the weirder photos in the book was of a man who had shot himself in the head. Three times. The bullets put holes in his nose, sinuses, and jaw, but none of the wounds were fatal. He gave up on the gun and hung himself. Reminds me of National Lampoon’s commentary on the Chilean coup and Salvador Allende’s suicide: “Caramba! Our beloved president has committed suicide by shooting himself … in the back, from thirty paces, pausing only once to reload!” ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-suicides/732203/33 "2015-09-25T14:06:51Z")
The earliest and most prominent that springs to mind is Cleopatra, with the famous asp. Hers fits into the “following a military defeat” category mentioned earlier. ---
**Author:** ![Septima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Septima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Septima)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-suicides/732203/34 "2015-09-25T14:23:18Z")
[QUOTE=Martian Bigfoot] Mithridates did a similar thing. Actually (for anyone unfamiliar with the story), his is a particularly delicious case. After spending his whole life making himself immune to poisons by taking antidotes as well as poisons in small, non-lethal amounts, Mithridates tried to kill himself using poison. Epic suicide fail. So he had a friend stab him instead. [/QUOTE] The book I’m reading right now posits that the problem wasn’t that he was imune to his own suicide drugs - it’s that he was caught unprepared in a sudden losing siege, and had with him his two youngest daughters. So gave each little girl an lethal dose of the only poisen he had that was painless - and the one he himself was not imune to. And then had not enough for himself. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-suicides/732203/35 "2015-09-25T15:35:22Z")
> [@Septima](#): > > The book I’m reading right now posits that the problem wasn’t that he was imune to his own suicide drugs - it’s that he was caught unprepared in a sudden losing siege, and had with him his two youngest daughters. > > So gave each little girl an lethal dose of the only poisen he had that was painless - and the one he himself was not imune to. And then had not enough for himself. Guessing: \*The Poison King? \*That’s a very good book! Yeah, I suppose that’s a plausible alternative take on it. And rather sweet. Wait. Did I just describe a story where a guy gives poison to his two young daughters as “sweet”? I didn’t realize how messed up that actually is until right now. > [@Max\_Torque](#): > > The earliest and most prominent that springs to mind is Cleopatra, with the famous asp. Certainly prominent, but not that early. Cleo is 1st century BC. And the ancients were knocking themselves off since forever. I guess Ajax, from the Trojan war, sort of set the tone, way back in mythical times. He lost a competition with Odysseus for the armor of Achilles after the latter’s demise, and (at least in one version) killed himself in shame. I mean… really, Ajax? That’s a pretty low threshold you have there for falling on your sword. Was that entirely necessary? You don’t think you’ll feel better about this in the morning? ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-suicides/732203/36 "2015-09-25T15:52:20Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Suicide was not uncommon in the Japanese military during WWII when things went pear-shaped: Not just suicide but seppuku which is like the bitter, angry brother of suicide. ---
**Author:** ![blood63](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/97f17d/32.png) [@blood63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blood63)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-suicides/732203/37 "2015-09-25T16:31:57Z")
> [@mbh](#): > > In my college library, I once ran across a forensic pathology textbook. One of the weirder photos in the book was of a man who had shot himself in the head. Three times. The bullets put holes in his nose, sinuses, and jaw, but none of the wounds were fatal. He gave up on the gun and hung himself. I can’t imagine the stress of trying to put a bullet in your head. My aim would wander as well to avoid the tragic end. ---
**Author:** ![blood63](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/97f17d/32.png) [@blood63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blood63)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-suicides/732203/38 "2015-09-25T16:34:57Z")
Didn’t Hitler both take cyanide and shoot himself? The obvious question is “Which killed him first?” Obviously the bullet killed him before the poison did. ---
**Author:** ![Septima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Septima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Septima)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-suicides/732203/39 "2015-09-25T22:27:48Z")
[QUOTE=Martian Bigfoot] Guessing: The Poison King? That’s a very good book! Yeah, I suppose that’s a plausible alternative take on it. And rather sweet. Wait. Did I just describe a story where a guy gives poison to his two young daughters as “sweet”? I didn’t realize how messed up that actually is until right now. [/QUOTE] Busted 😃 It is a great book. Forces you to root for what is arguably a psychopathic dictator (but what a magnificent one). ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-suicides/732203/40 "2015-09-25T23:02:42Z")
> [@Septima](#): > > Busted 😃 It is a great book. Forces you to root for what is arguably a psychopathic dictator (but what a magnificent one). Well, he is up against what is arguably the Evil Empire (but a magnificent one). Ain’t the ancient world great? 😉 Mostly, I thought it was refreshing to see a take on the period that is less Roman-centric than usual. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-suicides/732203.md?page=1)