# Historical Xmas Question **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 20, 2009, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-xmas-question/521944 "2009-12-20T12:40:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Jinx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Jinx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jinx)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2009, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-xmas-question/521944/1 "2009-12-20T12:40:13Z")
In the Charlie Brown Christmas special: When Linus, I believe, explains the meaning of Christmas, he says something about Christ coming from (or going to) the City of David? Is that another name for Bethlehem or Nazareth? Or, is it just wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2009, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-xmas-question/521944/2 "2009-12-20T12:46:02Z")
It presumably refers to Bethlehem, where David was supposedly born. The name “City of David” can also refer to a part of Jerusalem, too. In the nativity context I imagine it’s the former, though. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2009, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-xmas-question/521944/3 "2009-12-20T12:56:18Z")
Well, [according to Wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_David), these days it refers to a region of Jerusalem, but I have always understood the reference in the Xmas story was to Bethlehem. Wasn’t the issue that Joseph was a descendant of David, and thus, for the census, although he actually lived in Nazareth, he had to go, with wife, to the town his ancestors came from? I think the real issue was that the prophecies said the Messiah would come from Bethlehem, whereas Jesus was actually from Nazareth. Again [according to Wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David#David_is_chosen), David did come from Bethlehem. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2009, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-xmas-question/521944/4 "2009-12-20T13:04:21Z")
Darn, you go get the cites and get pipped at the post. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Jinx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Jinx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jinx)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2009, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-xmas-question/521944/5 "2009-12-20T13:05:30Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > Well, [according to Wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_David)…Wasn’t the issue that Joseph was a descendant of David, and thus, for the census, although he actually lived in Nazareth, he had to go, with wife, to the town his ancestors came from? While I’ve been told the trek to Bethlehem was for the (Roman) census, it’s hard to believe one would have to get to the town of their ancestors. How far back on the family tree were they expected to go? And, wouldn’t that create even more of a census nightmare? Didn’t the Romans want to know how many were residing in which towns? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2009, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-xmas-question/521944/6 "2009-12-20T14:38:02Z")
> [@Jinx](#): > > While I’ve been told the trek to Bethlehem was for the (Roman) census, it’s hard to believe one would have to get to the town of their ancestors. How far back on the family tree were they expected to go? And, wouldn’t that create even more of a census nightmare? Didn’t the Romans want to know how many were residing in which towns? The notion that anyone was expected to return to ancestral homes is more likely a plot point in Luke’s narrative than an historical event. From [Dex’s staff report on the census](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2001/what-did-the-census-at-the-time-of-the-birth-of-christ-accomplish): > [@](#): > > The remainder of Luke’s account is also highly improbable (I’m being generous here), for a number of reasons: > > [ul][li]There was no census of “all the world” (read: the entire Roman Empire) declared by Augustus; at least, if there were, it’s not mentioned in any Roman documents that we’ve uncovered so far. The census was of Judea, Samaria, and Idumaea–not Galilee (where Luke puts Joseph and Mary). Quirinius used the opportunity to also conduct a census of Syria. [/li] > [li]The notion that each male would have to register in the home town of a remote ancestor is unbelievable. The entire Roman world would have been turned upside-down. There would surely have been records of such widespread dislocations, and there are none. Augustus was arguably the most rational of the emperors, and would never have ordered such an irrational thing. [/li] > [li]Ancient census-takers wanted landowners to be connected to their land, for tax purposes. The census-takers traveled, not those being taxed.[/li][/ul] > So, almost all scholars agree that it is not reasonable to think that there was ever a decree that required people to travel for purposes of tax registration. (Challenges to the report are acceptable, but do not post them in this thread. Start a new thread in either [Great Debates](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/forumdisplay.php?f=7) or in [Comments on Staff Reports](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/forumdisplay.php?f=6) and then link to the new thread from a post in this thread. This is not the forum for debate.) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Man_In_Black)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-xmas-question/521944/7 "2009-12-21T05:44:05Z")
> [@Jinx](#): > > While I’ve been told the trek to Bethlehem was for the (Roman) census, it’s hard to believe one would have to get to the town of their ancestors. How far back on the family tree were they expected to go? And, wouldn’t that create even more of a census nightmare? Didn’t the Romans want to know how many were residing in which towns? I read a fictional book about Jesus that said his parents had to go to Bethlehem because Joseph was left land in the town by a relative who died. Makes as much since as anything. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-xmas-question/521944/8 "2009-12-21T06:11:34Z")
After the Exodus, the two spies sent to reconnoiter Canaan were apparently granted land in Judah. Caleb son of Jephunneh is the one most often discussed, but the other one, Salmon son of Nahshon, is key to our story. He settled in Bethlehem, along with his wife Rahab, formerly a businesswoman of Jericho, as did his kinsman Elimelech. When Salmon died is not given, but Elimelech was alive when a famine hit, and he removed to Moab with his wife Naomi and their sons Mahlon and Chilion, who married Moabite girls, Orpah and Ruth. Ten years after Elimelech died, both their sons died as well, and Naomi chose to return to her home town. Orpah stayed in Moab, Ruth chose to go with Naomi. When they got back there, Salmon had died, and his son Boaz was the major landowner. Ruth set her sights on him, and with Naomi’s coaching landed him. They had a son named Obed, whose son Jesse was Davids father. Both Jesse and David were fertile sorts, and the family spread far and wide (helped, of coruse, by David’s being anointed king). Luke is the one who points out that Boaz was the son of Salmon and Rahab; one wonders if it was his mother’s influence that made him so willing to marry a young widow from Moab. After tbe Exile, Jewish people (i.e., members of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi) settled Galilee, from which most of the leading families had been taken into an earlier exile under the Assyrians from which they never returned (cf. 10 Lost Tribes). We get a few notes that not all the so-called 10 Lost Tribes were taken away, e.g., Luke mentions the prophetess Anna son of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. But bottom line, Galilee was sparsely populated. The area in between, though, formerly belonging to the Joseph tribes, was populated by half-Jewish half-Gentile descendants of surviving Ephraimites and Manassehites intermarried with people resettled there. This was Samaria. The whole bit about going to Bethlehem seems to have been, either a totally weird idea of the Romans, or more probably, made up to get someone clearly from Nazareth to have been born in Bethlehem. Since it was basically a census for taxation purposes, consdier how lucky you are to only have to file a 1040, not take it to where your earliest ancestors settled. ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-xmas-question/521944/9 "2009-12-21T14:19:44Z")
City of David, is David the former king. Like Chicago is “The City of Oprah” 🙂 except in the bible Oprah is spelled Orpah ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historical-xmas-question/521944/10 "2009-12-21T15:27:59Z")
Linus quotes from the Gospel according to Luke, chapter 2: > [@](#): > > 1: And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed. > 2: (And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.) > 3: And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city. > 4: And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto **the city of David, which is called Bethlehem** ; (because he was of the house and lineage of David:) > 5: To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child. > 6: And so it was, that, while they were there, the days were accomplished that she should be delivered. > 7: And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn. > \*8: And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night. > 9: And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid. > 10: And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. > 11: For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. > 12: And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger. > 13: And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying, > 14: Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men. \* **Bolding** mine; the part recited by Linus in _italics_.