# Historically accurate battle tactics in movies **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** movies\ **Created:** [May 19, 2021, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historically-accurate-battle-tactics-in-movies/942412 "2021-05-19T02:25:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2021, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historically-accurate-battle-tactics-in-movies/942412/21 "2021-05-21T07:37:50Z")
Here is a good examination of tactics in films. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/xPGdOXstSyk/maxresdefault.jpg "Ancient Warfare Expert Rates 10 Battle Tactics In Movies And TV | How Real Is It?") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPGdOXstSyk) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2021, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historically-accurate-battle-tactics-in-movies/942412/22 "2021-05-21T07:38:54Z")
Yes, and … ? Perhaps you could be a little bit more explicit about your point rather than cryptic mouth-noises? ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2021, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historically-accurate-battle-tactics-in-movies/942412/23 "2021-05-21T07:39:15Z")
Now that’s exactly the kind of situation where you _wouldn’t_ use a testudo. 😄 The testudo was used against a rain of missiles, not in hand-to-hand combat. The men at the back couldn’t fight at all. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2021, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historically-accurate-battle-tactics-in-movies/942412/24 "2021-05-21T07:41:14Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Arrows will happily pierce most shields and remain lethal. Not true. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2021, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historically-accurate-battle-tactics-in-movies/942412/25 "2021-05-21T07:42:05Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Arrows will happily pierce most shields and remain lethal. So will a Javelin Bullshit. > [@AK84](#): > > If you are taking arrows and Jevelin in a _testudo_ formation, things have already gone badly wrong. That’s what the formation was primarily _for_. At least, that’s what [the actual Romans who used it](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testudo_formation#Formation) thought: “The resulting shape, which is a remarkable sight, looks very like a roof, and **is the surest protection against arrows** , which just glance off it” “all the men by the density of the formation are under shelter from missiles” > [@GreenWyvern](#): > > The testudo was used against a rain of missiles, not in hand-to-hand combat. Unless you’re going to be surrounded, in which case the men at the back are useful. I’m not saying it was the best thing to do, tactically (that would be not sortieing at all 🙂 ) ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2021, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historically-accurate-battle-tactics-in-movies/942412/26 "2021-05-21T07:51:05Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Unless you’re going to be surrounded, in which case the men at the back are useful. Not if they’re holding their shields above their heads. There’s a description in Caesar’s Gallic War of Roman soldiers surrounded by a large number of enemies, and he says they formed a circle, and tried to gradually move back towards their camp. They reached almost to the wall of the camp before they were overwhelmed, and the standard bearer threw the eagle over wall before he was killed. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2021, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historically-accurate-battle-tactics-in-movies/942412/27 "2021-05-21T08:10:29Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > Not if they’re holding their shields above their heads. The ones at the back are supposed to be holding their shields facing the back in that situation: > If necessary, the legionaries on the sides and rear of the formation could stand sideways or backwards with shields held as the front rows, so as to protect the formation’s sides and rear; this reduced the speed and mobility of the formation, but offered consistent defensive strength against opposing infantry and excellent protection against arrows and other missile attacks. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2021, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historically-accurate-battle-tactics-in-movies/942412/28 "2021-05-21T09:25:33Z")
I shared the relevant clip of the referred movie since I haven’t seen it for a while. Made no comment on your post, one way or the other. Sometimes a cigar is just a fucking cigar. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2021, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historically-accurate-battle-tactics-in-movies/942412/29 "2021-05-21T09:30:44Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Made no comment on your post, one way or the other. Other than to post “Hmmmm” immediately below my post explicitly referencing that same movie. 🙄 The other one, if pulled, will have bells on. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2021, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historically-accurate-battle-tactics-in-movies/942412/30 "2021-05-21T09:32:58Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > At least, that’s what [the actual Romans who used it](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testudo_formation#Formation) thought: > “The resulting shape, which is a remarkable sight, looks very like a roof, and **is the surest protection against arrows** , which just glance off it” > “all the men by the density of the formation are under shelter from missiles” Thats not an _actual Roman who used it_. Thats Plutarch, writing 150 or so years later. And if we are going by secondary sources off wiki, then Cassius Dio reports that the Parthian arrows decimated Crassus’s _testudo_ forming legionaries at Carrahe, ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2021, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historically-accurate-battle-tactics-in-movies/942412/31 "2021-05-21T09:37:22Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Thats not an _actual Roman who used it_ . Thats Plutarch Plutarch _was_ a Roman. One of Greek birth, but [a Roman](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_citizenship) nonetheless > [@AK84](#): > > writing 150 or so years later. I forgot that the Romans had switched to tanks by then… > [@AK84](#): > > Cassius Dio reports that the Parthian arrows decimated Crassus’s _testudo_ forming legionaries at Carrahe, … this is just getting ridiculous - that account specifically says that happened _after the cataphract cavalry opened up the formation_. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2021, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historically-accurate-battle-tactics-in-movies/942412/32 "2021-05-21T09:43:37Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Thats not an _actual Roman who used it_ . Or is your issue with the “used it” phrasing? In which case, sure, Plutarch didn’t fight in Anthony’s legions. I happily concede the point. Doesn’t change the thrust of my argument. That account was written by a contemporary of the Imperial Roman legions. I’ll believe their account over someone who thinks scutums can’t stop any javelins or arrows. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2021, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historically-accurate-battle-tactics-in-movies/942412/33 "2021-05-21T09:48:48Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I forgot that the Romans had switched to tanks by then… No, but by Plutrachs time they average legionary was much more heavily armoured, the _lorica segmentata_ was in use and that had excellent protection against missile fire. The scutum was three pieces of plywood, glued together. It wasn’t designed to take penetrating attacks. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2021, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historically-accurate-battle-tactics-in-movies/942412/34 "2021-05-21T09:54:19Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > The scutum was three pieces of plywood, glued together. It wasn’t designed to take penetrating attacks. And faced with leather, both sides. That kind of composite construction is precisely the kind of structure that’s _good_ against penetrating attacks (compared to a solid shield). It was choppers (like the Dacian _falx_) that the scutum was worse at. Until they improved them with better edging. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2021, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historically-accurate-battle-tactics-in-movies/942412/35 "2021-05-21T10:00:25Z")
Every first hand Roman account of facing arrowfire seems suggest that it was the body armour not the shield which provided protection from arrows. Ammianus Marcellinus describes facing Sassanids and that the early versions of proto plate armour was very effective at stopping Roman arrows (which were heavier than Persian ones). ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2021, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historically-accurate-battle-tactics-in-movies/942412/36 "2021-05-21T10:00:28Z")
I don’t believe that the testudo was used in hand-to-hand combat. The formation is purely defensive, and it’s impossible to fight back and useless in that situation (as the clip from the movie showed). If anyone is interested in reading Caesar’s book, it’s fascinating and well worthwhile. But find a good translation. The translations available free online are pretty useless and unreadable. The Penguin Classics translation is probably the best ([Amazon Kindle edition](https://www.amazon.com/Conquest-Gaul-Classics-Julius-Caesar-ebook/dp/B002RI9MTS/)), and it’s also available to borrow from the Internet Archive for 14 days, [here](https://archive.org/details/caesarconquestof00hand) or [here](https://archive.org/details/conquestofgaul00juli). ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2021, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historically-accurate-battle-tactics-in-movies/942412/37 "2021-05-21T10:15:03Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > No, but by Plutrachs time they average legionary was much more heavily armoured, the _lorica segmentata_ was in use and that had excellent protection against missile fire. It’s in fact hotly debated to what extent the legions actually adopted _segmentata_ overall. > [@AK84](#): > > Every first hand Roman account of facing arrowfire seems suggest that it was the body armour not the shield which provided protection from arrows. I’m not doubting the protection offered by any of the _lorica_. But citing Marcellinus on Sassanids isn’t really a “first hand Roman account of facing arrowfire”, is it now? ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2021, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historically-accurate-battle-tactics-in-movies/942412/38 "2021-05-21T10:25:21Z")
The testudo wasn’t unique to the Romans, by any means. Caesar gives an example of Germans using a similar formation of locked shields, and its ineffectiveness in close combat: > Our troops attacked with such vigour when the signal was given, and the enemy also dashed forward so suddenly and swiftly, that there was no time to throw spears at them. So the men dropped their spears and fought hand to hand with their swords. > > By quickly adopting their usual phalanx formation the Germans were able to withstand the sword thrusts, but many of our soldiers actually threw themselves on the wall of shields confronting them, wrenched the shields out of the enemy’s hands, and stabbed them from above. The Germans’ left was thus routed, but their right began to press our troops hard by weight of numbers. I.56 The Gauls also used it in sieges: > Eight miles away was a town of the Remi called Bibrax, which the Belgae, directly they reached it, assaulted so violently that the garrison had difficulty in holding out to the end of the day. > > The Belgae have the same method of attacking a fortress as the rest of the Gauls. They begin by surrounding the whole circuit of the wall with a large number of men, and showering stones at it from all sides; when they have cleared it of defenders, they lock their shields over their heads, advance close up, and undermine it. > > These tactics were easy to employ on the present occasion; for with such a large force hurling stones and javelins, no one could possibly stay on the wall. When night stopped the assault, Iccius, the governor of the town - a Roman nobleman, who was very influential with his countrymen and had been one of the envoys deputed to ask Caesar for peace - sent word that unless relieved he could not hold out longer. II.8 * * * As for the effectiveness of shields, Caesar mentions Roman spears bouncing off the shields of the Gauls: > But the enemy, even in their desperate plight, showed such bravery that when their front ranks had fallen those immediately behind stood on their prostrate bodies to fight and when these too fell and the corpses were piled high, the survivors still kept hurling javelins as though from the top of a mound, and flung back the spears intercepted by their shields. II.27 And Gallic missiles intercepted by Roman shields: > Accordingly Galba summoned the centurions and immediately sent them to explain the new plan to the troops. They were to cease offensive action for a time, merely using their shields to intercept the enemy’s missiles. When they had had time to recover from their exertions, the signal would be given to break out of the camp; then they would have to rely on their courage to save their lives. III.5 ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2021, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historically-accurate-battle-tactics-in-movies/942412/39 "2021-05-21T10:25:23Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > I don’t believe that the testudo was used in hand-to-hand combat. The formation is purely defensive, and it’s impossible to fight back and useless in that situation (as the clip from the movie showed). We have accounts of it being used in h2h, at least as I read it. This is from [Livy](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0148%3Abook%3D31%3Achapter%3D39): > The body of Cretans alone was not unserviceable; and yet even these, though, in case of an attack made on them, they could to good purpose discharge their arrows against the horses or riders, where they were open to a wound, **yet against the Roman shields they could do nothing** , because they had neither strength sufficient to pierce through them, nor was there any part exposed at which they could aim. [13] Perceiving, therefore, that kind of weapon to be useless, they annoyed the enemy with stones, which lay in plenty in all parts of the valley: the strokes made by these on their shields, with greater noise than injury, for a short time retarded the advance of the Romans; [14] but quickly disregarding these missiles also, some, closing their shields in form of a tortoise, **forced their way through the enemy in front** ; Bonus description of shield-arrow effectiveness bolded for @AK84 Now, Livy isn’t the greatest source on military matters, but is a source nonetheless. > [@GreenWyvern](#): > > Caesar gives an example of Germans using a similar formation of locked shields, and its ineffectiveness in close combat: Note that that’s likely a spear phalanx, though, so the Germans might not have had the same close-in stabby weapons to deal with jumpers-on. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2021, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historically-accurate-battle-tactics-in-movies/942412/40 "2021-05-21T10:35:34Z")
BUT Having said all that, I’d just like to point out that at no point have I said the use of the formation in _The Eagle_ was _brilliant_ tactics or _standard_ Roman infantry engagement doctrine. I merely offered it up as the use of a period tactic in a movie. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historically-accurate-battle-tactics-in-movies/942412.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historically-accurate-battle-tactics-in-movies/942412.md?page=3)