# Historically, how did philosophers benefit the general public? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 29, 2009, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historically-how-did-philosophers-benefit-the-general-public/504682 "2009-07-29T16:43:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historically-how-did-philosophers-benefit-the-general-public/504682/21 "2009-07-30T20:37:07Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > Plato utterly despised rhetoricians (called sophists in his day). His contempt for them (and for their contempt for truth) was a large part of what made him devote his life to philosophy. > > \ > > _The Secret_ is nasty meretricious bit of rhetoric, designed to part people from their money by appealing to their greed, vanity and laziness, in order to suppress their critical faculties. It is the antithesis of philosophy. I very much doubt that it contains as much as two consecutive lines of rational argumentation. It would have made Plato vomit. Well said. In addition, I would point out that ‘Philosophy’ translates as ‘the love of wisdom.’ I do not doubt that the vast majority of Philosophers throughout history would view _The Secret_ for nothing more than the hyperbolic tripe it is and have no problem declaiming it as such. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historically-how-did-philosophers-benefit-the-general-public/504682/22 "2009-07-30T21:10:09Z")
> [@Syntropy](#): > > Well said. In addition, I would point out that ‘Philosophy’ translates as ‘the love of wisdom.’ I do not doubt that the vast majority of Philosophers throughout history would view _The Secret_ for nothing more than the hyperbolic tripe it is and have no problem declaiming it as such. I have no doubt that the vast majority of Philosophers throughout history would view any philosophy that deviated from their own in an even slightly discernable way as nothing more than hyperbolic tripe and have no problem declaiming them as such. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historically-how-did-philosophers-benefit-the-general-public/504682/23 "2009-07-30T23:22:59Z")
Oh, absolutely. I’m not claiming otherwise. OTOH, there were and are a lot of pretenders to the crown. Every age has them. For every philosopher with the insight of Sartre there are half a dozen self promoting morons like Lacan. Lacan’s pseudo science does not detract from Sartre’s observations on Existentialism any more than Byrne’s trite psychobabble detracts from Dennett’s incisive theories about consciousness. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historically-how-did-philosophers-benefit-the-general-public/504682/24 "2009-07-30T23:27:49Z")
It’s _entertainment_, dudes, and a whole lot better than the boob-tube. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historically-how-did-philosophers-benefit-the-general-public/504682/25 "2009-07-31T02:04:19Z")
Dennett, yes. Interesting stuff. Sartre? Dried up Velveeta. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historically-how-did-philosophers-benefit-the-general-public/504682/26 "2009-07-31T02:54:24Z")
Pistols at dawn! Sartre’s _Existentialism is a Humanism_ is seminal. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historically-how-did-philosophers-benefit-the-general-public/504682/27 "2009-07-31T03:07:10Z")
> [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](#): > > Historically, how did philosophers benefit the general public? They (most of them) kept their jeremiads confined to the marketplace, where there was a ready audience for bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historically-how-did-philosophers-benefit-the-general-public/504682/28 "2009-07-31T03:25:53Z")
Yoga. It is quite possibly the best habit you could acquire. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historically-how-did-philosophers-benefit-the-general-public/504682/29 "2009-07-31T04:02:12Z")
Historically, Philosophers have acted to destabilize the conceptual foundations of their respective eras. (Understand “era” in spatial as well as temporal terms.) On some occasions, this has had the positive effect of enabling their respective societies–or anyway, at least, some of the people around them–to make progress in the face of challenges. I call the practice of Philosophy a kind of conceptual thrillseeking, and I see it as valuable for many of the same reasons thrillseeking is valuable. Film at 11. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historically-how-did-philosophers-benefit-the-general-public/504682/30 "2009-07-31T12:26:46Z")
> [@Syntropy](#): > > Pistols at dawn! > > Sartre’s _Existentialism is a Humanism_ is seminal. I draw my weapon, sir! Existentialism is a philosophical blight that has all but deadened the enlightenment of man. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historically-how-did-philosophers-benefit-the-general-public/504682/31 "2009-07-31T13:15:11Z")
AARRRGH! You’re conflating Existentialism with Postmodernism! No, no, no, no, NO! Existentialism is a necessary movement to explain the human existence, whereas Postmodernism is megalomaniacal wanking. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historically-how-did-philosophers-benefit-the-general-public/504682/32 "2009-07-31T13:45:11Z")
> [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](#): > > I’ve just read the [Wiki page on Philosophy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy) and now I am wondering how the general populace looked at the philosophers of their time. Did the public perceive genuine benefit from listening to their endless pontifications, or even understand what they were talking about? Since it was no small challenge for me to read that page without my eyes glazing over, I am wondering just how much interest the people of more primitive times could possibly have had. > > Who are the modern day philosophers? Have they all moved on to universities and talk radio? > > From the wiki page, the philisophical “eras” were: > > Ancient philosophy (c. 600 B.C.–c. A.D. 500) > Medieval philosophy (c. A.D. 500–c. 1350) > Renaissance (c. 1350–c. 1600) > Early modern philosophy (c. 1600 – c. 1800) > Nineteenth century philosophy > Contemporary philosophy (c. 1900 – present) > > Politicians may have been the primary consumers of philosophers’ output. These days it seem like everybody (especially the politicians) develops and holds on to their own personal understanding of fundamental causes and principles of existence, the universe, the nature of good and evil, the importance of the pursuit of knowledge, etc. It can be next to impossible to get people to change philisophical viewpoints, even when they are presented with a broader awareness. > > If Plato, Aristotle, Descartes, Kierkegaard and Nietzsche were to suddenly appear in the present year 2009, where would they find gainful employment? There are a lot of different ways to be a philosopher. One example that (ostensibly) benefited mankind is Hammurabi- he established the first known [code of laws](http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/MESO/CODE.HTM). Try and plow through that and you’ll notice that obviously times have changed. Still, the idea of a code of laws caught on, and it is hard to imagine what a non-primitive society would look like without one. What kind of jobs would these various philosophers get today? Tough call. Aristotle was the teacher of Alexander the Great, so maybe he’d be involved with the military. I can picture Kierkegaard and Nietzsche as attempted rock stars or maybe just local nutjobs. It is kind of a limited view of philosophy I think. Any really educated person (except MBA’s) today becomes a philosopher (they don’t call a PhD ‘Doctor of Philosophy’ for nothing), though people don’t generally view it in those terms. Every doctor, lawyer and judge is arguably a philosopher. Arguably every scientist, politician and preacher too. You could include game-show hosts and fad diet authors, Oprah, Rush Limbaugh, Ghandi, MLK, Thomas Edison, Einstein… I hope this at least helps answer your question. How did people at the time view philosophers? I think it varied quite a bit. Some were popular, some were treated like cranks. Guys like Socrates made a big splash and attracted a lot of attention, then eventually pissed off enough people that the society turned on them and had them killed. ---
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historically-how-did-philosophers-benefit-the-general-public/504682/33 "2009-07-31T15:03:34Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Guys like Socrates made a big splash and attracted a lot of attention, then eventually pissed off enough people that the society turned on them and had them killed. Good idea - kill 'em all and let 'em sort out god! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historically-how-did-philosophers-benefit-the-general-public/504682/34 "2009-07-31T16:30:40Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Existentialism is a philosophical blight that has all but deadened the enlightenment of man. I, of course, differ. Existentialism is the only truly _grown-up_ philosophical school, the one that expects its adherents to act like adults and take real ownership of themselves and their actions. What’s more enlightened than that? ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historically-how-did-philosophers-benefit-the-general-public/504682/35 "2009-07-31T16:46:07Z")
I suspect Liberal’s main objection to Existentialism lies in the fact that so many Existentialists tend toward atheism. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historically-how-did-philosophers-benefit-the-general-public/504682/36 "2009-07-31T17:19:20Z")
> [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](#): > > Good idea - kill 'em all and let 'em sort out god! 😛 I’ve nothing to add; I just want to give this line the applause it is due. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historically-how-did-philosophers-benefit-the-general-public/504682/37 "2009-07-31T18:05:45Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I think a good example would be the piety initiatives put in place by Augustus Caesar in Rome. I think that had a profound impact on Roman society which at the time of Julius Caesar was incredibly debauched. These initiatives did little more than legitimize a post-civil war political order. They were well-constructed propaganda. The fact that they existed should not cause one to conclude that society was somehow debauched before their propagation. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historically-how-did-philosophers-benefit-the-general-public/504682/38 "2009-07-31T18:25:52Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > These initiatives did little more than legitimize a post-civil war political order. They were well-constructed propaganda. The fact that they existed should not cause one to conclude that society was somehow debauched before their propagation. Well you know more about it than I do. Generally Bachannals and orgies are what I have heard was the common state of things. Also Caesar and Antony’s methods of dealing with a Senate who they didn’t agree with was pretty corrupt. My specifics are likely off but I think you are making a mistake here. How would it solidify a post civil war order if it did not address the reasons for the disorder? You wouldn’t for instance consider the Consul breeding with a foreign Queen, and then the Consul that succeeds him having an affair with that same Queen, debauchery? Particularly when it was part of the root cause of said civil war? ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historically-how-did-philosophers-benefit-the-general-public/504682/39 "2009-07-31T18:40:17Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Well you know more about it than I do. Generally Bachannals and orgies are what I have heard was the common state of things. Also Caesar and Antony’s methods of dealing with a Senate who they didn’t agree with was pretty corrupt. My specifics are likely off but I think you are making a mistake here. How would it solidify a post civil war order if it did not address the reasons for the disorder? You wouldn’t for instance consider the Consul breeding with a foreign Queen, and then the Consul that succeeds him having an affair with that same Queen, debauchery? Particularly when it was part of the root cause of said civil war? New thread. In short, you are using the Augustan narrative to justify the reforms, just as he did. Augustus destroyed the Roman state. Romans had spent the previous generation living under brutal despots who at least clung to the formalities and basic organization of the Republic. Augustus, having dismantled that almost completely, needed to look elsewhere for his political legitimacy. An empire simply was not possible under the existing Roman constitution. So he created a new one and rooted Roman imperial authority in the supposed restoration of virtue, the decline of which virtue Romans had been complaining about since the beginning of recorded Roman history. You can read this in the Aeneid, in Horace, in Sallust, in Livy, and even later in Tactitus. Augustus’ moral program was intended to redefine his brutal past and transform him into the “prince of peace” and the defender of good old Roman values. He was very, very good at this. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historically-how-did-philosophers-benefit-the-general-public/504682/40 "2009-07-31T18:42:00Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > New thread. > > In short, you are using the Augustan narrative to justify the reforms, just as he did. Augustus destroyed the Roman state. Romans had spent the previous generation living under brutal despots who at least clung to the formalities and basic organization of the Republic. Augustus, having dismantled that almost completely, needed to look elsewhere for his political legitimacy. An empire simply was not possible under the existing Roman constitution. So he created a new one and rooted Roman imperial authority in the supposed restoration of virtue, the decline of which virtue Romans had been complaining about since the beginning of recorded Roman history. > > You can read this in the Aeneid, in Horace, in Sallust, in Livy, and even later in Tactitus. Augustus’ moral program was intended to redefine his brutal past and transform him into the “prince of peace” and the defender of good old Roman values. > > **He was very, very good at this.** Well then that supports my thesis that Augustus as a philosopher was able to influence the Roman state and thus impact the common people. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historically-how-did-philosophers-benefit-the-general-public/504682.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historically-how-did-philosophers-benefit-the-general-public/504682.md?page=3)