# History is Being Erased in Florida **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 16, 2004, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/history-is-being-erased-in-florida/240312 "2004-04-16T04:27:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2004, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/history-is-being-erased-in-florida/240312/41 "2004-04-17T00:58:48Z")
Funny, I’d say that turning every bolt and spanner that was used in the Apollo program into a national monument is what’s wrong with the space program: dwelling on past glories instead of pushing forward and leaving this rock behind us. Would the LUT, even if it had been kept in pristine condition since the last launch, been of any use to us in future space exploration efforts? No? Then tear it down. We don’t need it any more. I mean, how many memorials does the space program need? Now you’re pissed that the Apollo 1 sight isn’t properly magnificent? How about we cordone off every field where we found a chunk of the Columbia and call 'em national parks, while we’re at it? Pretty soon, we’ll be spending more federal money on remembering the space program than we are on the space program itself. You say it’d only cost forty million to restore the LUT. I say, let’s put that forty million where it’ll do some actual good: the design and manufacture of the next generation of space planes. The entire space program, for me, is about the future. Let the past rot. ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2004, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/history-is-being-erased-in-florida/240312/42 "2004-04-17T01:48:43Z")
I’ve often mused that if things keep going like they have been, and we never get back out of low Earth orbit, in 500 years people won’t believe man ever went to the moon. It’ll be like those drawings in Egypt that some people said looked like gliders - nobody believes the ancient Egyptians could have built a glider because it would have been so out of line with the rest of their technology. The skeptic of the year 2500 will say, “Let’s see - they didn’t understand cancer, turbulence or quantum gravity, their computers were still made of inorganic materials, and they had no working fusion powerplants- and you’re telling me they set foot on the moon? In a 365-foot-tall kerosene-powered rocket, launched from a swamp in Florida? Sure, I’ll believe you, when I see the gigantic launch platform this would have required.” ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2004, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/history-is-being-erased-in-florida/240312/43 "2004-04-17T01:49:58Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Funny, I’d say that turning every bolt and spanner that was used in the Apollo program into a national monument is what’s wrong with the space program: dwelling on past glories instead of pushing forward and leaving this rock behind us. Who said anything about saving every bolt and spanner? I’m talking about saving the LUT. > [@](#): > > Would the LUT, even if it had been kept in pristine condition since the last launch, been of any use to us in future space exploration efforts? No? Then tear it down. Did the country need “Liberty Hall” in Philidelphia after the Revolution? No. Let’s tear that down too. We don’t need it any more. > [@](#): > > I mean, how many memorials does the space program need? Now you’re pissed that the Apollo 1 sight isn’t properly magnificent? How about we cordone off every field where we found a chunk of the Columbia and call 'em national parks, while we’re at it? That’s beyond absurd and you know it. Common practice is for the site of a landbased disaster to have a large memorial _on the site where the disaster occured_, in the case of an air disaster with a large debris field, it’s common to have one large memorial at a location significant to the disaster, and few smaller ones in areas where large portions of debris are found. > [@](#): > > Pretty soon, we’ll be spending more federal money on remembering the space program than we are on the space program itself. Yeah, and let’s just forget about the potential revenue those sites could bring in. You got your tourist nick nacks, concession stand rental fees, etc. etc. Now, let’s talk about the other things that NASA has moldering away in warehouses. The plans for the S 5 have all been copied to microfiche (the paper ones having been thrown away decades ago), they’re just sitting there. There’s no point in dusting them off to build a new S 5, of course, we’d be better off starting from scratch, but hey, why not dump them onto DVD-ROMS and sell 'em? It ain’t happening, pal, because apparently no one gives a damn about the past. (Hell, they could sell of the junked pieces of the space shuttle fleet [excepting the debris from the _Columbia_ and _Challenger_, of course], people pay big money for that kind of stuff.) > [@](#): > > You say it’d only cost forty million to restore the LUT. I say, let’s put that forty million where it’ll do some actual good: the design and manufacture of the next generation of space planes. The entire space program, for me, is about the future. Let the past rot. Which is exactly what’s going to happen, according to the folks at [savethelut.org](http://savethelut.org) > [@](#): > > I’m sorry to say, but BEM Systems of Orlando, the demolition company will > never take possession of the steel. It will remain NASA’s until it is > sold, and BEM will be paid by them. > > So far NASA seems unwilling to sell any parts of the LUT to private > individuals, companies or the Space Restoration Society. It is quite > frustrating, but we are working hard to find out who will be receiving the > steel eventually and plan to negotiate with them. Keep your fingers > crossed. IOW, it’s just going to **sit there** in a pile until NASA decides to do something with it. So, even the money which is being spent to tear the goddamn thing down is being **wasted**. There’s your space program, right there, pal, a pile of fucking scrap metal that no one can be bothered to even throw out. Had the LUT been perserved, folks might have been inspired to look upon it and wonder what might have been. Maybe even said, “You know, we were stupid for even pausing for a second.” Now, there’s just another pile of junk on the ground and we’re no closer to having a decent space program than we were before. All hail progress! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2004, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/history-is-being-erased-in-florida/240312/44 "2004-04-17T02:11:07Z")
Oh, gimme a break. The American public didn’t give a flying fuck about LUT when we were using it to launch actual rockets at the actual moon. You think that’s going to change after we turn it into a glorified tourist trap? Potential revenue my fat ass. It would have been a money sink for a few years, and then been torn down anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2004, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/history-is-being-erased-in-florida/240312/45 "2004-04-17T02:22:47Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Oh, gimme a break. The American public didn’t give a flying fuck about LUT when we were using it to launch actual rockets at the actual moon. Of course they didn’t because they all thought that we were going to be Captain Kirk some day. Only that didn’t happen. No, what happened is that we turned our back on the whole idea, instead of pushing forward. > [@](#): > > You think that’s going to change after we turn it into a glorified tourist trap? Potential revenue my fat ass. It would have been a money sink for a few years, and then been torn down anyway. And now, we’ll never know. But if the steel’s just going to sit there in a pile anyway, what was the hurry in demolishing it? So it’ll decay faster and dump more contaminants into the soil? Good plan that. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2004, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/history-is-being-erased-in-florida/240312/46 "2004-04-17T03:17:32Z")
I am very unsentimental about these things as well. IMHO, if it no longer serves a useful purpose, tear it down in favor of a new structure that WILL serve a useful purpose. History is not being erased, only it’s useless physical decaying remnants. ---
**Author:** ![paperbackwriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@paperbackwriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paperbackwriter)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2004, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/history-is-being-erased-in-florida/240312/47 "2004-04-17T05:19:36Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > Who said anything about saving every bolt and spanner? I’m talking about saving the LUT. > > Did the country need “Liberty Hall” in Philidelphia after the Revolution? No. Let’s tear that down too. We don’t need it any more. That’s beyond absurd and you know it. Actually, your comparison is absurd and you (should) know it. The Continental Congress borrowed what we now call Independance (not Liberty) Hall from the Pennsylvania State Legislature. Once the Continental Congress left, the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania went back to using it. Later, the Constitutional Convention also borrowed it. It had a continous history of use for long after the Revolution. Other sites associated with the Continental government in Philadelphia did not have such a history, and are now lost. No-one cries that the original York County Courthouse, where Congress met when forced to flee to York, PA and actually declared the existence of an entity known as the United States of America, has been replaced by newer Courthouses. The Nina, Pinta and Santa Maria are lost to history, as are the shipyards where they were built, the port structures from which they set out, and the place they landed. Does this mean that Columbus not sail across the Atlantic? The sacrifice of the Apollo 1 crew is enshrined in one of our nation’s most sacred spaces: Arlington National Cemetary. We don’t, as a nation, create stronger, more powerful, more visited memorials anywhere else (the National Mall excepted). Do you really think that the memory will fade, or the memorial become less visited, or the honor diminished, when LC 34 crumbles into dust? Temporary structures that are never meant for long-term use or preservation and have no continuing use are not likely to be preserved. You are confusing saving a rusting derrick for saving the dream of space flight. Two separate things. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2004, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/history-is-being-erased-in-florida/240312/48 "2004-04-17T23:01:35Z")
I have to go along with the misplaced-emotions argument. The OP is looking back on the space program as a historic-only, completed thing, part of the past, and of the spirit that created it as something lost. Well, that last part is the tragedy, not the loss of a rusty 40-year-old tower. The thing to be upset about is that we didn’t seriously follow up beyond that with anything but low-earth-orbit stuff that really only lets us think we’re keeping our hand in when we’re really not committed. And don’t get me started on Bush’s alleged Mars program; he isn’t doing anything to make it happen other than strip out other useful smaller stuff. I was a kid in elementary school then, and it made me want to be an aerospace engineer. Which I am - except that I’m not working on manned missions to the outer planets; I’m working on a technology that was already pretty mature when I was a kid. But that’s what’s available. The younger crowd, looking for something inspirational, doesn’t even consider it. That’s what you should be mad about. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2004, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/history-is-being-erased-in-florida/240312/49 "2004-04-17T23:34:12Z")
Well, let’s take a look at one of the [proposed “advancements” for the current space program.](http://www.spacer.com/news/rocketscience-04k.html) > [@](#): > > The underlying fallacy here is that most of the Shuttle’s problems are contained in the Orbiter, and that the rest of the stack can make a safe low-cost launcher. This is simply not the case. Recall that the two fatal accidents so far were caused by fundamental design defects in the SRBs and ET, not any deficiency in the Orbiter. > [@](#): > > There are two hidden reasons that the SDV idea gets so much attention. One is employment. There will be strong political resistance to cutting back the huge Shuttle workforce. To Congress, NASA is a middle-class entitlement program and the large amount of money spent on Shuttle salaries is actually a large part of its political strength. > > The other reason is the “Not Invented Here” syndrome. The EELV program was entirely managed by the Air Force and has provided the final proof that NASA’s own booster design group at MSFC is unnecessary as well as incompetent. Naturally these people will fight against the adoption of blue-suit technology that would make them redundant. So we’re **not** going to be gaining a better space program by the loss of the LUT. We’ll be gaining more of the same problems. And **ElvisL1ves** , I’ve been bitching to politicians about how NASA needs more money and joining things like the Planetary Society since I was sixteen. How about you? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2004, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/history-is-being-erased-in-florida/240312/50 "2004-04-18T00:44:55Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > And **ElvisL1ves** , I’ve been bitching to politicians about how NASA needs more money and joining things like the Planetary Society since I was sixteen. How about you? More gentle, but less ignorable, pressure from within the system, via my employers and industry associations. That’s been at least equally as effective as the SF geeks clubs, wouldn’t you say? Human nature being what it is, though, we need a combination of a specific reason and credible leadership to make it happen. Without the Cold War arms race and the need to reach the “high ground” before the godless Commies, even Apollo wouldn’t have happened. What impetus for such massive spending is there now, or what is even conceivable? Just as with the Panama Canal, Apollo still wouldn’t have happened without a challenge from a credible leader to achieve a specific goal in a specific short time, or without an effective leader to force it to happen (and there I mean Johnson, not Kennedy). What credible and effective leader is out there to make it happen this time, and would we even let him be credible and effective? Perhaps we’re all taking too short a view. One comparison I’ve come across is Antarctica. There was a rush at the turn of the century to be the first to get to the South Pole, raise a flag, and dash home. Once that was done, nobody gave a damn about the place for half a century. Only then did humans return for long-term stays with specific, reasonable goals other than simply being there. Perhaps we’re getting closer to that now with the Moon? What would be the correlary to the International Geophysical Year that would induce it? ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2004, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/history-is-being-erased-in-florida/240312/51 "2004-04-18T01:03:45Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > More gentle, but less ignorable, pressure from within the system, via my employers and industry associations. That’s been at least equally as effective as the SF geeks clubs, wouldn’t you say? Well, I wouldn’t say that [The Planetary Society](http://www.planetary.org/) was a “SF geeks club” > [@](#): > > The Planetary Society was founded in 1980 by Carl Sagan, Bruce Murray, and Louis Friedman to encourage the exploration of our solar system and the search for extraterrestrial life. Though no doubt there’s a large number of SF geeks involved in it. > [@](#): > > Human nature being what it is, though, we need a combination of a specific reason and credible leadership to make it happen. Without the Cold War arms race and the need to reach the “high ground” before the godless Commies, even Apollo wouldn’t have happened. What impetus for such massive spending is there now, or what is even conceivable? Lots, the problem is that folks don’t understand it. They fail to make the connection between the DVD player or plasma screen they’re lusting after and the spin-offs from the space program that made them possible. The potentials there, but because it’s not shoved in people’s faces 24/7, they fail to recognize it. > [@](#): > > Just as with the Panama Canal, Apollo still wouldn’t have happened without a challenge from a credible leader to achieve a specific goal in a specific short time, or without an effective leader to force it to happen (and there I mean Johnson, not Kennedy). What credible and effective leader is out there to make it happen this time, and would we even let him be credible and effective? Johnson was able to force it through Congress because of how Kennedy died. According to published accounts, Kennedy had caught the fire and would have continued the program had he not be killed in Dallas. **Any** leader could make himself credible on this (and any other issue) if he were to be genuinely passionate about it. Hell, it wouldn’t even have to be the President, an effective head of NASA who stated, “This is what we do, this is where we’re going, and this is how we’re going to get there.” would be able to do it. _Remind_ Congress of what NASA’s mandate is, give 'em a blood and thunder speech, and then bust ass to make it happen. > [@](#): > > Perhaps we’re all taking too short a view. One comparison I’ve come across is Antarctica. There was a rush at the turn of the century to be the first to get to the South Pole, raise a flag, and dash home. Once that was done, nobody gave a damn about the place for half a century. Only then did humans return for long-term stays with specific, reasonable goals other than simply being there. Perhaps we’re getting closer to that now with the Moon? What would be the correlary to the International Geophysical Year that would induce it? Well, let’s hope that it’s **not** the Centennial of the first landing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/history-is-being-erased-in-florida/240312.md?page=2)