# History's forgotten atrocities? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 26, 2005, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historys-forgotten-atrocities/318764 "2005-08-26T18:01:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2005, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historys-forgotten-atrocities/318764/21 "2005-08-27T05:27:38Z")
The 1943 Bengal Famine is notable in this respect not only for killing between 3 and 4 million people, and not only for being a man-made famine due to deliberate British policy decisions (diverting rice supplies off the market), but also for being so totally overlooked and forgotten by the rest of the world. At the time, Mountbatten tried to alert Churchill that the British were starving millions of Bengalis to death, but Churchill ignored the consequences and kept right on starving them. This thread seems more GQ in nature. I don’t see any debates shaping up here. Unless you want to argue that the British were somehow not responsible for these deaths that could have been avoided. How many people have even heard of this huge tragedy? I had been reading Indian history for years, but never knew of it until I went to a Satyajit Ray retrospective at the Smithsonian and saw _Distant Thunder_. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2005, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historys-forgotten-atrocities/318764/22 "2005-08-27T11:06:30Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > I don’t know. I mean, the man who did the most to get the Jews out of Lithuania during WWII was the Japanese consul. So, I think those examples just show that there are decent people in all governments. And he was sacked for this and never got back a government job, even after the war. If I’m not mistaken, he was only rehabilitated postumously some years ago. The same thing (being sacked and only rehabilitated during recent years) happened to the Swiss police officer who let Jews cross the border despite orders to the contrary, and the Portuguese consul in sout-western France who signed as many visas as he physically could (even in the train station at the border between france and Spain after he had been recalled). And probably to many others. That nobody considered rehabilitating/congratulating them even 30 or 40 years after WWII blows the mind. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2005, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historys-forgotten-atrocities/318764/23 "2005-08-27T11:17:50Z")
It’s interesting and ironic that both the Japanese and the Germans should have each taken steps to ameliorate the worst excesses of the other. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2005, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historys-forgotten-atrocities/318764/24 "2005-08-27T11:24:10Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > The 1943 Bengal Famine is notable in this respect not only for killing between 3 and 4 million people, and not only for being a man-made famine due to deliberate British policy decisions (diverting rice supplies off the market), but also for being so totally overlooked and forgotten by the rest of the world. At the time, Mountbatten tried to alert Churchill that the British were starving millions of Bengalis to death, but Churchill ignored the consequences and kept right on starving them. > > This thread seems more GQ in nature. I don’t see any debates shaping up here. Unless you want to argue that the British were somehow not responsible for these deaths that could have been avoided. > > How many people have even heard of this huge tragedy? I had been reading Indian history for years, but never knew of it until I went to a Satyajit Ray retrospective at the Smithsonian and saw _Distant Thunder_. I for one had never heard of it. I’ve just Googled for it and found an article on Banglapedia that doesn’t speak one word of blame against Churchill or the British, nor that even mentions Mountbatten. Assuming that Banglapedia is not institutionally pro-British, I think we can downgrade this one from “atrocity” to “tragedy”. There seems to have been plenty of rice about the place, but a horrible collision of market factors had driven the price up to idiotic levels. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2005, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historys-forgotten-atrocities/318764/25 "2005-08-27T20:29:33Z")
Doesn’t it show that what we call atrocities now were viewed as not unusual? More of an object lesson? This sort of thing has been going on since the dawn of history. Take a look at the Illiad: when the Achaeans sacked Troy, they killed all the males and enslaved the women. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2005, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historys-forgotten-atrocities/318764/26 "2005-08-27T20:54:54Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Doesn’t it show that what we call atrocities now were viewed as not unusual? More of an object lesson? This sort of thing has been going on since the dawn of history. Take a look at the Illiad: when the Achaeans sacked Troy, they killed all the males and enslaved the women. Good point. IIRC, the Old Testament has passages where the Hebrews, presumably acting under God’s command, attacked other tribes and killed all the men and enslaved the women. It was apparently commonplace enough to go in the Holy Book as Business as Usual for God’s chillun at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2005, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historys-forgotten-atrocities/318764/27 "2005-08-27T23:14:03Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Good point. IIRC, the Old Testament has passages where the Hebrews, presumably acting under God’s command, attacked other tribes and killed all the men and enslaved the women. It was apparently commonplace enough to go in the Holy Book as Business as Usual for God’s chillun at the time. Wasn’t Moses (IIRC) denied entry to the Promised Land precisely for **not** enforcing “the ban” against defeated enemies? ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2005, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historys-forgotten-atrocities/318764/28 "2005-08-27T23:46:09Z")
> [@Frostillicus](#): > > The fate of Iris Chang is a tragedy in itself. > > [http://womenwriters.about.com/b/a/125410.htm](http://womenwriters.about.com/b/a/125410.htm) Damn, I didn’t know that. ☹ I remember seeing her on C-Span when her book came out. I was quite impressed with her. Other ‘recent’ atrocities could include genocide in Bangladesh [gendercide.org](http://www.gendercide.org/case_bangladesh.html) during the Pakistan India Bangladesh War of 1971 (Bangladesh Liberation War) [http://www.onwar.com/aced/data/bravo/bangladesh1971.htm](http://www.onwar.com/aced/data/bravo/bangladesh1971.htm) . ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2005, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historys-forgotten-atrocities/318764/29 "2005-08-29T04:43:00Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > I for one had never heard of it. I’ve just Googled for it and found an article on Banglapedia that doesn’t speak one word of blame against Churchill or the British, nor that even mentions Mountbatten. Assuming that Banglapedia is not institutionally pro-British, I think we can downgrade this one from “atrocity” to “tragedy”. There seems to have been plenty of rice about the place, but a horrible collision of market factors had driven the price up to idiotic levels. Furthermore, the determinants of famine were only worked out in the 1970s (and published in a 1981 book) by A. Sen. It turns out that the key determinant to look for is NOT an absolute shortage of food. Rather a shortage of buying power leads to famine. The Bengali tragedy was one of the examples in Sen’s work. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amartya\_Sen](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amartya_Sen) ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2005, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historys-forgotten-atrocities/318764/30 "2005-08-29T04:45:39Z")
> [@Plan B](#): > > RJ Rummel has spent a lifetime researching this stuff. He estimates that the Soviets killed 62 million of their own and China killed 35 million in the 20th century. For more horrendous stats: > [http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM](http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM) I only learned about Democide during the Mexican Revolution (1900-1920) this year. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2005, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historys-forgotten-atrocities/318764/31 "2005-08-29T04:51:58Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > How many other historical massacres are there out there perhaps we SHOULD pay more attention to? What we should pay attention to are methods of averting humanitarian catastrophe. [There is a think tank that is devoted to this line of work.](http://www.crisisgroup.org/home/index.cfm) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2005, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historys-forgotten-atrocities/318764/32 "2005-08-29T06:15:13Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > Wasn’t Moses (IIRC) denied entry to the Promised Land precisely for **not** enforcing “the ban” against defeated enemies? No. As I remember it, instead of asking a rock to pour out its water as he’d been instructed, he got angry and hit it with his staff. So he got the credit for making the water come out of the rock, and The Big Jealous Guy punished him for it. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2005, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historys-forgotten-atrocities/318764/33 "2005-08-29T17:09:29Z")
Even with mild editorial comments, there is no debate, here. On the other hand, it makes a good “collection” thread for **GQ** (that some folks might want to bookmark, given the information and links provided). Off to **GQ**. ---
**Author:** ![Plan\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Plan\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plan_B)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2005, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historys-forgotten-atrocities/318764/34 "2005-08-29T18:44:34Z")
> [@Measure for Measure](#): > > I only learned about Democide during the Mexican Revolution (1900-1920) this year. That’s unfortunate. I didn’t learn about it till after I graduated from college. One might say that’s the result of a leftist bias in the media and universities. But that gets into a GD type discussion. Suffice it to say it’s worth looking at the numbers mentioned in this thread so far and then drawing one’s own conclusions. ---
**Author:** ![Dragonblink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Dragonblink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dragonblink)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2005, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historys-forgotten-atrocities/318764/35 "2005-08-29T19:13:08Z")
The level of forgottenness of many of these things varies depending on where you’re from. Having grown up in Glendale, CA and having attended public school there for 13 years, I am well aware of the Armenian genocide. 'Fact, on the day all the Armenians took off of school in remembrance, the rest of us got to watch pretty much the same genocide presentation every year. Except one year, when they had a survivor of the genocide speaking. It was fascinating and heart-breaking, listening to him describe his experiences as a young child. But they’d put him at the end of the program and the glurgly slideshow had run long, so they cut him off early. Apparently, showing us photos to dramatic music and quotes of dubious origin was more important than this man putting everything into a very human, personal scale. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2005, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historys-forgotten-atrocities/318764/36 "2005-08-29T19:29:17Z")
> [@](#): > > That’s unfortunate. I didn’t learn about it till after I graduated from college. One might say that’s the result of a leftist bias in the media and universities. Well, I’ve neveer heard of this before now. Looking over what I’ve googled about it, I don’t understand why ignorance about this is due to _leftist_ bias. No other atrocities are thought to be poorly known because of political leanings, right or left. Why should this one be? ---
**Author:** ![SmackFu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/53a042/32.png) [@SmackFu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmackFu)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2005, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historys-forgotten-atrocities/318764/37 "2005-08-29T19:47:08Z")
My example of this is the [Albigensian Crusades](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albigensian_Crusade) in France. (They were the people of Carcassone, if you’ve heard of that.) I don’t even know how much of the truth of that ever got out, since they pretty much wiped out the Cathars. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2005, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historys-forgotten-atrocities/318764/38 "2005-08-29T21:46:24Z")
The Albigensian Crusade will never be totally forgotten; everytime someone wonders about the source of that quote “Kill them all; God will know his own”, they’ll stumble across it. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2005, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historys-forgotten-atrocities/318764/39 "2005-08-29T21:50:15Z")
[internet crank mode] How can any of these be forgotten if they never really happened? [/internet crank mode] ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2005, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historys-forgotten-atrocities/318764/40 "2005-08-29T22:22:46Z")
The Rape of Nanking in hardly forgotten, in fact, very few of those mentioned here are. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historys-forgotten-atrocities/318764.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/historys-forgotten-atrocities/318764.md?page=3)