# Hitler a Christian? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [December 30, 2006, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitler-a-christian/386104 "2006-12-30T11:57:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2007, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitler-a-christian/386104/21 "2007-01-12T23:17:11Z")
[QUOTE=John W. Kennedy] No, that interpretation cannot possibly be extracted from my words. [/QUOTE] Well I extracted it too, well before I read **Operation Ripper** ’s post. Could you explain how I am meant to interpret this: > [@](#): > > Indeed, given his beliefs about Jews, he couldn’t believe in Christianity. in order to clear up any ambiguity. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2007, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitler-a-christian/386104/22 "2007-01-13T04:26:36Z")
A -\> B does not imply B -\> A Logic 101 ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2007, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitler-a-christian/386104/23 "2007-01-13T05:58:18Z")
[QUOTE=John W. Kennedy] The Nazi inner circle was neo-pagan, with Christianity regarded as just one more part of the Great Jewish Plot Against “Aryans”. [/QUOTE] Some of the inner circle perhaps, especially Himmler, but not Hitler. He was just yer basic Fallen Catholic. Not even one of the mystical ones! 😉 > [@Invisible Eagle: The History of Nazi Occultism](#): > > There is no evidence whatsoever to link Hitler directly with black magic practices of any description. While it is of course beyond question that the Nazi Party arose out of the National Socialist German Workers’ Party, which in turn began as the Thule Society (a group founded on occult and racist principles), there is no evidence that Hitler himself was an occultist - and considerable evidence that he wasn’t. > > Speer, for instance, recalls Hitler’s contempt for the woolly-headed mysticism of Heinrich Himmler: “What nonsense! Here we have at last reached an age that has left all mysticism behind it, and now he wants to start all over again. We might just as well have stayed with the church. At least it had tradition. To think that I may some day be turned into an SS saint! Can you imagine it? I would turn over in my grave …” > > … > > In truth, those who subscribed to occultist or pseudo-religious notions were indeed something of a laughing stock in the high echelons of the Third Reich. Himmler’s beliefs about the original prehistoric Germanic race were considered absurd by both Hitler and Goebbels, the propaganda minister. ‘When, for example, the Japanese presented [Himmler] with a samurai sword, he at once discovered kinships between Japanese and Teutonic cults and called upon scientists to help him trace these similarities to a racial common denominator.’ > > As for the belief that Hitler was deeply interested in astrology and kept in constant touch with astrologers who advised him on the various courses of action he should take, this too is completely fallacious. According to the former Office of Strategic Services (OSS) officer Walter Langer: “All of our informants who have known Hitler rather intimately discard the idea [of Hitler’s belief] as absurd. They all agree that nothing is more foreign to Hitler’s personality than to seek help from outside sources of this type.” > > The Fuhrer had never had his horoscope cast, but in an indicative move Hitler, some time before the war, forbade the practice of fortune-telling and star-reading in Germany. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2007, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitler-a-christian/386104/24 "2007-01-13T14:51:39Z")
Like any other historical figure, Hitler is whatever people want or need him to be to further their own cause or argument. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2007, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitler-a-christian/386104/25 "2007-01-13T22:42:34Z")
That’s a wonderful one-liner, Liberal, but I think the OP is rather more curious as to what the man himself thought, not what other’s thought of him. ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2007, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitler-a-christian/386104/26 "2007-01-13T22:51:02Z")
I’m pretty sure that I’ve read that Hitler had to avoid meat in his diet the majority of the time, not because he didn’t like some meat, but because it caused him many digestive problems like nausea and unpleasant and embarassing gas. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2007, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitler-a-christian/386104/27 "2007-01-14T03:44:47Z")
[QUOTE=smiling bandit] That’s a wonderful one-liner, Liberal, but I think the OP is rather more curious as to what the man himself thought, not what other’s thought of him. [/QUOTE] Yeah, but that’s already been hashed out, hasn’t it? “He was!” say some. “He wasn’t!” say others. It seemed like the proper time to put it all in perspective. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2007, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitler-a-christian/386104/28 "2007-01-14T03:47:11Z")
Besides, people have already moved on to his vegetarianism. Next will be his love of puppies and young female cousins. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2007, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitler-a-christian/386104/29 "2007-01-14T03:48:39Z")
And whether he was Jewish, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2007, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitler-a-christian/386104/30 "2007-01-14T04:56:24Z")
Looking for consistency in the sayings and opinions of madmen is often a futile exercise. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2007, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitler-a-christian/386104/31 "2007-01-14T07:26:19Z")
[QUOTE=Larry Borgia] Looking for consistency in the sayings and opinions of madmen is often a futile exercise. [/QUOTe] Except his statements were NOT those of a madman. What he said was truth–to those he was speaking. Hitler was not a madman but a supreme politician: someone who was putting into words the fears and aprehensions of his audience. THEY wanted a simplistic answer to their problems. THEY were willing to place that blame on the Jews because THEY saw an easy fallguy. Hitler was simply the guy who gave them what they wanted. Hitler was NOT NECESSARY for the Holocaust to occur. Hell, look at Polish politics before 1939 and see it in light of the ease of Polish cooperation with the rounding up of the Jews—the problem the Poles had with him was to a great exent that he wasn’t THEIR fascist. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2007, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitler-a-christian/386104/32 "2007-01-15T00:43:01Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] Yeah, but that’s already been hashed out, hasn’t it? “He was!” say some. “He wasn’t!” say others. It seemed like the proper time to put it all in perspective. [/QUOTE] Actually, it always seemed fairly clear to me. Hitler worshipped himself. Not as a narcissist does, but he came to demand fealty almost as a living God. All other religions were competition. He wanted to turn Germany itself into a monument to his greatness- or his tomb, in a similar fashion to the Japanese leaders who were willing to burn their whole country to the last man in order to save their skins. Whatever he started out as, and whatever his cohorts were, and whatever his country was, he worshipped himself. Stalin, and most other fascist and communist leaders, were the same. ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2007, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitler-a-christian/386104/33 "2007-01-19T05:40:26Z")
[QUOTE=dropzone] Except his statements were NOT those of a madman. What he said was truth–to those he was speaking. Hitler was not a madman but a supreme politician: someone who was putting into words the fears and aprehensions of his audience. THEY wanted a simplistic answer to their problems. THEY were willing to place that blame on the Jews because THEY saw an easy fallguy. Hitler was simply the guy who gave them what they wanted. Hitler was NOT NECESSARY for the Holocaust to occur. Hell, look at Polish politics before 1939 and see it in light of the ease of Polish cooperation with the rounding up of the Jews—the problem the Poles had with him was to a great exent that he wasn’t THEIR fascist. [/QUOTE] Which, to me, brings up a related question: were the guards and administrators and others who were directly responsible for enslaving, torturing, and murdering the millions of Holocaust victims generally Christians? And, were the civilians who supported Hitler and the war generally Christians? If so, did they consider Nazism to be Christianity? My guesses would be yes and yes, but I’ve heard people say that Christians in Germany were a minority in the first half of the 20th century. This sounds unlikely to me, but hopefully some of you know more. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2007, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitler-a-christian/386104/34 "2007-01-19T06:57:46Z")
[QUOTE=chorpler] Which, to me, brings up a related question: were the guards and administrators and others who were directly responsible for enslaving, torturing, and murdering the millions of Holocaust victims generally Christians? And, were the civilians who supported Hitler and the war generally Christians? If so, did they consider Nazism to be Christianity? [/QUOTE] “Nazism to be Christianity?” In what way? There was a pro-Nazi movement within Protestantism that wound up selecting a strongly pro-Nazi hierarchy in 1933, (to the point where they even got their leader named “_Reichbischoff_”), but I am not sure that that set Naziism the same as Christianity. However, I would agree with your basic point. To the extent that Germany was a “Christian” country in the 1920s, it did not suddenly become a “non-Christian” country in 1933. Catholics and Protestants continued to see themselves as good Catholics and Protestants as well as good Germans and the National Socialists were their ruling party. I suspect that claims that the Germans (including the camp guards) were “not really” Christians is an act of special pleading by some Christians to distance themselves from the fact that Christians can be led into acts as deplorable as anyone else. (It is possible, of course, that while the typical soldier in the _Wehrmacht_ was Christian, those who joined the SS and similar outfits were more inclined to have beliefs in the old pre-Christian paganism or the occult or in a sort of secularism that supported no beliefs. Certainly, some of the internal beliefs and practices of the SS would have encouraged something other than Christianity. Still, I have seen no evidence that the nominal religious beliefs of the SS translated into the actual religious beliefs of its members and I suspect that they were typically Christian in the way that their pre-enlistment neighbors were Christian.) Hitler is a slightly different matter in that he had stopped attending church (except for puiblicity and propaganda purposes) years before the NSDAP became a serious political force in Germany. His roots were clearly Catholic, but he had not actually practiced any religion in a very long time. ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2007, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitler-a-christian/386104/35 "2007-01-19T13:56:19Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] “Nazism to be Christianity?” In what way? [/quote] Sorry, dropped a couple words there thanks to a malfunctioning mouse and keyboard. Before they got deleted, it said “Nazism to be compatible with Christianity,” not “to be Christianity.” > [@](#): > > However, I would agree with your basic point. To the extent that Germany was a “Christian” country in the 1920s, it did not suddenly become a “non-Christian” country in 1933. Catholics and Protestants continued to see themselves as good Catholics and Protestants as well as good Germans and the National Socialists were their ruling party. I suspect that claims that the Germans (including the camp guards) were “not really” Christians is an act of special pleading by some Christians to distance themselves from the fact that Christians can be led into acts as deplorable as anyone else. Well, that’s what I was wondering: to what extent Germany _was_ a “Christian” country in the 1920’s (and the 30’s and 40’s, too). It seems unlikely that it would be anything other than Christian, but I’ve heard claims that it wasn’t, and that Christians were minority by the time the Nazis came to power. I don’t really think that’s likely to be true (I suspect it’s special pleading, like you say), but I’m not anything like an expert on early-to-mid-20th-century Germany… ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2007, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitler-a-christian/386104/36 "2007-01-19T14:06:02Z")
[QUOTE=doodinthemood] As good a concept as it is, Hitler’s biographers and those who knew him well are all agreed that Hitler liked Game pie, Bavarian sausages and stuffed pigeon. He was never a vegetarian and the origin of this myth is unknown. [/QUOTE] The vegetarian story was in newspaper articles as early as 1930 in the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2007, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitler-a-christian/386104/37 "2007-01-19T14:23:34Z")
IIRC, Hitler used the phrase [Christian Navy](http://www.unterseeboote.co.uk/) as a derogatory term to describe the Kriegsmarine who weren’t all hardcore Nazis themselves. In the link to Cecil’s column there’s a note about the SS buckles with “Gott mit uns” (“God is with us”) written on them. This may not be religious but a reference to the [German Empire](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_empire) that ended with the close of WWI. Many Germans, Hitler of course included, had quite the bee in their bonnet about this, so it could be simple nostalgia of sorts. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2007, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitler-a-christian/386104/38 "2007-01-19T14:45:13Z")
If a person self-identifies as a Christian, as Hitler undeniably did, for our purposes he is one. The existence of a scolding third party declaring him “not a \*real \*Christian” doesn’t disqualify him; nobody since the First Century has been universally regarded by all self-identifying Christians as a “real Christian.” A substantial number of Catholics don’t think Protestants are the genuine article, and plenty of Protestants feel the same way about all Catholics. My calling Howard Metzenbaum “not a real Democrat” or George Allen “not a real Virginian” doesn’t make it so. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2007, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitler-a-christian/386104/39 "2007-01-19T17:57:27Z")
> [@](#): > > If a person self-identifies as a Christian, as Hitler undeniably did, for our purposes he is one. Nonsense. A Devil worshiper doesn’t transmute into a Christian because he calls the Devil “Jesus”. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2007, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitler-a-christian/386104/40 "2007-01-19T18:37:47Z")
[QUOTE=Krokodil] If a person self-identifies as a Christian, as Hitler undeniably did, for our purposes he is one. The existence of a scolding third party declaring him “not a \*real \*Christian” doesn’t disqualify him; nobody since the First Century has been universally regarded by all self-identifying Christians as a “real Christian.” A substantial number of Catholics don’t think Protestants are the genuine article, and plenty of Protestants feel the same way about all Catholics. My calling Howard Metzenbaum “not a real Democrat” or George Allen “not a real Virginian” doesn’t make it so. [/QUOTE] Ordinarily, I’d agree with you. But I think that it has to be honest self-identification. If he thought of himself as lying about being a Christian in order to deceive the public, then it makes sense to say that he wasn’t a Christian. Deciding whether he was honest in his professions of Christian belief is tricky, but it is not the same as trying to pass judgment on whether those beliefs themselves count as “really” Christian or not. There is actual evidence, in the form of private statements disparaging Christianity, his attendance at church on public occasions only, etc., that can be brought to bear on the issue. The evidence is inconclusive, so there will still be debate, but it is objective, evidence-based debate, not theology. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitler-a-christian/386104.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitler-a-christian/386104.md?page=3)