# Hitler going to Heaven **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 24, 2004, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitler-going-to-heaven/252032 "2004-06-24T16:12:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Isosleepy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/isosleepy/32/479_2.png) [@Isosleepy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isosleepy)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitler-going-to-heaven/252032/1 "2004-06-24T16:12:52Z")
If Adolf Hitler had not killed himself, but been captured, and before being put to death (which I expect would 've been about as open-and-shut case as we’ve ever seen) he did whatever neccesary in your religion to achieve the state neccesary to enter heaven or equivalent, could he? What would he have to do?I.e. if he accepted JC as is saviour, would that do it for Protestants? Be genuinly sorry for his crimes? Looking for factual answers (i.e. these are our rules, yes he could/no he couldn’t) not IMHO’s ---
**Author:** ![Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aeb1de/32.png) [@Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kel_Varnsen_Latex_Division)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitler-going-to-heaven/252032/2 "2004-06-24T16:18:29Z")
According to most Protestant Christian thought God can give Grace to anyone he chooses for reasons that are beyond human understanding. Meaning we don’t know if Hitler went to Heaven. And we shouldn’t think about it because it is not man’s place to question the Will of God. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitler-going-to-heaven/252032/3 "2004-06-24T16:28:02Z")
IIRC the Latter Day Saints perspective has A.H. standing face to Face with The God shortly after his soul leaves the physical world. At that time Hitler would have the opportunity to reflect and repent (“Man! What was I thinking! Taht was so wrong!”). As long as he accepts JC as his eternal savior at that point his evils are pretty much eliminated. Of course, he’ll need to have been baptized correctly under the correct earthly authority for full benefits, but he is by no means damned to the outer limits for eternity unless he wants that for himelf. ---
**Author:** ![Shade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Shade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shade)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitler-going-to-heaven/252032/4 "2004-06-24T17:06:32Z")
I would ask the opposite question: are there religions which believe there are some acts so henious that you can never atone/repent/recover from them? Can anyone think of any good examples of someone who was really evil and then did repent afterward, and lived long enough to go through with it? ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitler-going-to-heaven/252032/5 "2004-06-24T17:12:24Z")
> [@](#): > > I would ask the opposite question: are there religions which believe there are some acts so henious that you can never atone/repent/recover from them? Not quite an answer to your question, but as I understand Catholicism if one dies in a state of mortal sin then one does not go to Heaven. I don’t know enough about RC doctrine to know if they believe in “Judgement Day” so I don’t know if the condemnation is permanent. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitler-going-to-heaven/252032/6 "2004-06-24T17:24:22Z")
> [@Shade](#): > > Can anyone think of any good examples of someone who was really evil and then did repent afterward, and lived long enough to go through with it? Don’t have any cites, but I imagine quite a few people executed for capital crimes fit this description. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitler-going-to-heaven/252032/7 "2004-06-24T18:57:00Z")
According to some Protestant groups, finding Jesus alone is enough - being sorry isn’t even necessary. Grace is something conferred only by God, and to these people, even repentence is a human act that has nothing to do with achieving salvation. Of course, that’s a rather extreme view, and it leads to a rather Calvinist or Puritan group of the “elect” who are chosen through no action of their own, basically fated to go to heaven. At any rate, the normal view is that everyone is wicked and sinful by nature, and we’re all destined for hell without the gift of Grace. Grace is given not because you live a good life - you’re destined to be sinful no matter what - but because you accept Jesus’s sacrifice on your behalf. In the eyes of God, all sins are equally wicked, or at least wicked enough that the distinction doesn’t matter much. This is my understanding of mainline-to-conservative Protestant teachings, anyway. Doing good works is a little more important in some other Christian churches. What if he were Catholic? I mean, those were some mortal sins. So presumably he’d have to confess them, and atone. How many Hail Mary’s would that take? I mean, for killing _one_ person you’d probably have to do quite a few. For directly having ten million people or so put to death, and starting a war that killed another 50 million, man, he’d have to talk really, really fast to get them all done. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitler-going-to-heaven/252032/8 "2004-06-24T19:12:01Z")
While I hold pretty standard Protestant beliefs on most doctrinal issues, in the case of Hitler making a gallows repentence I would lean more towards the Catholic idea of a lengthy stay in Purgatory. Not in the sense of punishment but more like “extreme tough-love remedial boot camp for the barely saved”. In the Buddhist version, he might make it back as a slimemold. ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitler-going-to-heaven/252032/9 "2004-06-24T19:49:09Z")
Didn’t the Mormons posthumously baptize Hitler? ---
**Author:** ![wisernow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/13edae/32.png) [@wisernow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wisernow)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitler-going-to-heaven/252032/10 "2004-06-24T22:22:22Z")
> [@Shade](#): > > Can anyone think of any good examples of someone who was really evil and then did repent afterward, and lived long enough to go through with it? Yes, Hinduism. According to Hindu mythology, read [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valmiki) for the short version and [this](http://www.salagram.net/Valmiki.html) for a longer version. ---
**Author:** ![Julius\_Henry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8797f3/32.png) [@Julius\_Henry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Julius_Henry)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitler-going-to-heaven/252032/11 "2004-06-24T22:50:41Z")
> [@Shade](#): > > Can anyone think of any good examples of someone who was really evil and then did repent afterward, and lived long enough to go through with it? No cites handy, but Karla Faye Tucker and Jeffrey Dahmer both claimed a religious conversion in prison. ---
**Author:** ![beltbuckle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@beltbuckle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beltbuckle)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitler-going-to-heaven/252032/12 "2004-06-24T22:52:07Z")
> [@Shade](#): > > I would ask the opposite question: are there religions which believe there are some acts so henious that you can never atone/repent/recover from them? > > Can anyone think of any good examples of someone who was really evil and then did repent afterward, and lived long enough to go through with it? Biblically speaking, the Bible mentions one unpardonable sin, in the book of Mathew, although interpretation is clearly required and subjective: Mathew 3:22-30: > [@](#): > > “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come” According to the text, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (the unpardonable sin) is attributing a work of God to Satan, or vice versa. Blasphemy is the act of claiming for oneself the attributes and rights of God… Other than this sin, the Bible mentions no other sin which can not be forgiven. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitler-going-to-heaven/252032/13 "2004-06-24T23:09:04Z")
> [@Isosleepy](#): > > If … he did whatever neccesary in your religion to achieve the state neccesary to enter heaven or equivalent, could he? Haven’t you answered your own question; if he did whatever was necessary, that would be adequate; otherwise ‘that which is necessary’ would not be enough. The question, I suppose, is ‘Is there such a thing as an irredeemable person?’ ---
**Author:** ![tadc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f07891/32.png) [@tadc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tadc)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitler-going-to-heaven/252032/14 "2004-06-24T23:47:18Z")
> [@pool](#): > > Didn’t the Mormons posthumously baptize Hitler? [Yes](http://nowscape.com/mormon/hitler_temple_records.htm) ---
**Author:** ![moriah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b2d939/32.png) [@moriah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moriah)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2004, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitler-going-to-heaven/252032/15 "2004-06-25T00:07:51Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > What if he were Catholic? I mean, those were some mortal sins. So presumably he’d have to confess them, and atone. How many Hail Mary’s would that take? I mean, for killing _one_ person you’d probably have to do quite a few. For directly having ten million people or so put to death, and starting a war that killed another 50 million, man, he’d have to talk really, really fast to get them all done. I’m hoping this was a joke, becuase, if it is serious, it represents a common Protestant anti-Catholic straw man argument used to ridicule the RCC as being not truly Christian because it claims that forgiveness is linked to acts of repentance which is not traditional Christian theology, whether Protestant or Catholic. In Catholic theology, acts of repentance are not necessary for salvation. ======== WRT the OP: In Catholicism there are certain principles: 1. Discussion of salvation is a mystery because it deals with one’s relationship with God who is a mystery. Not in the sense that it is unknowable or irrational, but in the sense that it is not fully comprehensible with limited, human brains. Thus, we need to speak in terms of metaphor and with humility. 2. There is a Heaven and a Hell. Heaven is a state of being in perfect union with God. Hell is the state of being in the absence of God. 3. It is possible to go to Hell if one truly rejects (with full knowledge and intention and free will) God or the Good to which God calls all people. 4. We don’t know if anyone is in Hell. 5. We hope no one is in Hell. 6. While we can look at a person’s actions and judge the action as being good or evil; we can’t look into a person’s soul and know if they had the true knowledge, intention, and free will in order to meet the criteria of completely rejecting God or The Good. So, while the RCC knows that Hitler did great, abhorent evil, it doesn’t know if Hitler is in Hell, and prays he isn’t. (“Pray for your enemies.”) Peace, -m, graduate degree in RC theology. ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2004, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitler-going-to-heaven/252032/16 "2004-06-25T00:12:47Z")
IANAM, (I am not a Mormon) but I seem to recall at Brigham Young said… > [@](#): > > “There are sins that the blood of a lamb, of a calf, or > turtle doves cannot remit. But they must be atoned by the > blood of man.” And… > [@](#): > > “There are sins that men commit for which they cannot receive forgiveness in this world, or in that which is to come, and if they had their eyes open to see their true condition, they would be perfectly willing to have their blood spilt upon the ground, that the smoke thereof might ascend to heaven as an offering for their sins; and the smoking incense would atone for their sin; whereas, if such is not the case, they will stick to them and remain upon them in the spirit world.” Keeping in mind, of course, that this isn’t (as I remember) the official church doctrine. But if my reading of Mr. Young’s personal views is correct, perhaps he’d say that Hitler’s _being executed_ would do more for his salvation than a spiritual conversion. (If, if, Maybe, maybe, perhaps, perhaps. etc. Food for thought, anyway.) BTW…Speaking for myself, as an Atheist, I can safely say that if Hitler had embraced Atheism (if he already hadn’t, that is) before his execution, his afterlife destination would stay just the same…a pile of ashes, dumped in a German waterway. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2004, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitler-going-to-heaven/252032/17 "2004-06-25T00:15:08Z")
Eh…everyone’s going to Heaven. Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2004, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitler-going-to-heaven/252032/18 "2004-06-25T00:44:46Z")
> [@Inigo Montoya](#): > > IIRC the Latter Day Saints perspective has A.H. standing face to Face with The God shortly after his soul leaves the physical world. At that time Hitler would have the opportunity to reflect and repent (“Man! What was I thinking! Taht was so wrong!”). As long as he accepts JC as his eternal savior at that point his evils are pretty much eliminated. Of course, he’ll need to have been baptized correctly under the correct earthly authority for full benefits, but he is by no means damned to the outer limits for eternity unless he wants that for himelf. Sorry, no, that’s not the LDS perspective. Neither is **Ranchoth** ’s version, as he notes. From the LDS POV, Hitler would go to spirit prison, which is essentially the afterlife (it’s divided into paradise and prison); the final judgement has not yet occurred. There he would perhaps have the opportunity to learn more and try to repent (a process which many feel may be more difficult in the afterlife than it is for living people; IOW now is the time to prepare to meet God). Repentance is a process which requires: 1) confession of your sins to God, 2) feeling sincere sorrow, 3) asking forgiveness, 4) doing everything possible to correct the problems your actions may have caused, and 5) turning away from the sins and not repeating them. All that comes after the acceptance of Christ as Savior. You may note that this process might not be the easiest thing to do, esp. after death. Now, Mormons have a teaching that whatever character a person may have built for himself during life is not going to go away after death. You will still be the same person after you die; so Hitler would have quite a bit of changing to do. It is perhaps unlikely that he would have a swift change of heart. Once the final judgement comes–still quite a ways away–each person will have a place in heaven, closer to or further away from God, as each one may desire or be capable of. Those who have rejected God absolutely and completely may go into outer darkness, but that requires rather more knowledge of God than most of us have. Finally, as with the other religions, it isn’t our business to decide where Hitler may end up. Not our problem. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2004, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitler-going-to-heaven/252032/19 "2004-06-25T01:07:44Z")
It seems that Rev. Sun Myung Moon is now claiming to be the messiah and that through him both Hitler AND Stalin have been reborn as good people. [Here is a link](http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=1972357) to the recent NPR story. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2004, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitler-going-to-heaven/252032/20 "2004-06-25T02:23:38Z")
> [@moriah](#): > > I’m hoping this was a joke, becuase, if it is serious, it represents a common Protestant anti-Catholic straw man argument used to ridicule the RCC as being not truly Christian because it claims that forgiveness is linked to acts of repentance which is not traditional Christian theology, whether Protestant or Catholic. I’m sorry I offended you. It was indeed a joke, but obviously not a funny one. :smack: I’m not religious at all, by the way, and were I religious, the version of ‘Grace’ offered by Protestantism - which, in the US at least, seems to me to be leaning further and further toward a fatalistic, Calvinist ideology - would strike me as both untenable and contrary to what I know about Christianity from a historical perspective. Somewhere else (since this is GQ and it’s not really the place for such things) I’d love to ask you some about Catholic theology, because Catholics tend to be a little less mouthy about their faith and I don’t think I have anywhere near the understanding of it that I do of Protestantism. Based on what I’ve seen, though, it seems to me that Catholicism _does_ take works into account - not in the sense that doing good works is adequate to achieve salvation, but in the sense that doing good is the obligation of a righteous person. The antinomianism of conservative Protestant circles today, the notion that sins are basically irrelevant as long as you’re saved, strikes me as theologically invalid (per Matthew 7:20, I think. I might be wrong about the chapter and verse; it’s the bit about evil fruit=evil tree and whatnot) and worse, potentially a smokescreen to deal with the embarrassing actions on the part of many public figures. Not to say I have anything against Protestantism, but I must say my limited acquaintance with the Bible suggests that they’re no closer to the essential truths it contains than the Catholic church. And frankly, I admit I do have something against the Southern Baptist, Christian Coalition, Focus on the Family types. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitler-going-to-heaven/252032.md?page=2)