# Hitler's practical reason for killing the Jews **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 2, 2014, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitlers-practical-reason-for-killing-the-jews/700168 "2014-10-02T08:39:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2014, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitlers-practical-reason-for-killing-the-jews/700168/41 "2014-10-03T14:01:30Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > It was largely places like the Ukraine and Baltics and such, yes, but even with German policy being what it was, about 50,000 Russian troops did end up fighting for the Germans. IIRC that is only Vlassov’s ROA. There’s also the Cossacks and independant Ost-Battalione. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2014, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitlers-practical-reason-for-killing-the-jews/700168/42 "2014-10-03T17:27:02Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > It was largely places like the Ukraine and Baltics and such, yes, but even with German policy being what it was, about 50,000 Russian troops did end up fighting for the Germans. Closer to a million actually. The reason they ‘fought’ for the Germans was actually _because_ German policy was what it was; the choice was starvation in a POW camp or working for the Germans as a [_hiwi_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiwi_(volunteer)) or in an Ost-Bataillon. > [@filmstar-en](#): > > @Dissonance > I am sure there will be someone along soon enough who will call bullshit on you at the date of 1939 and find incidents going back to 1933. If you’ve got no actual defense when called on stating bullshit just say so, don’t invent hypothetical people who will come to your aid with more invented ‘facts’. > [@filmstar-en](#): > > Often there are many reasons for an action, some more important than others. I have read of various practical explanations for the deaths of Russian PoWs. Lack of food due to supply problems, winter clothes being confiscated for use by the German army. But these often don’t stand up to scrutiny. And often various practical reasons are given by some for why so many Jews died during the war other than the Holocaust, usually involving typhus. We all know which side of their bread is buttered when people try these claims; they’re called holocaust deniers. There is only one reason 3.3 million Soviet POWs were murdered by starvation by the Nazis during WW2, and that is Nazi racial policy. From the [United States Holocaust Memorial Museum](http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007178), bolding mine: > [@](#): > > The brutal treatment of Soviet POWs by the Germans violated every standard of warfare. Existing sources suggest that some 5.7 million Soviet army personnel fell into German hands during World War II. As of January 1945, the German army reported that only about 930,000 Soviet POWs remained in German custody. The German army released about one million Soviet POWs as auxiliaries of the German army and the SS. About half a million Soviet POWs had escaped German custody or had been liberated by the Soviet army as it advanced westward through eastern Europe into Germany. The remaining 3.3 million, or about 57 percent of those taken prisoner, were dead by the end of the war. **Second only to the Jews, Soviet prisoners of war were the largest group of victims of Nazi racial policy**. ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2014, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitlers-practical-reason-for-killing-the-jews/700168/43 "2014-10-05T04:10:15Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > And often various practical reasons are given by some for why so many Jews died during the war other than the Holocaust, usually involving typhus. We all know which side of their bread is buttered when people try these claims; they’re called holocaust deniers. I guess ‘Nazi racial policy’ is bit of an advance on ‘Hitler was evil and was looking for a scapegoat’, but not much. I can see where this is going, you seem to be suggesting that any attempt at looking at this question in a broader context is tantamount to denying the Holocaust. I disagree, genocide is a recurring feature of human society and the holocaust is one of the most documented. It should be studied from all angles and all contributing factors should be considered and evaluated because this is one of the most important lessons from history. However, there seems little point in discussing it further in this forum given the trajectory the tone is taking. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2014, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitlers-practical-reason-for-killing-the-jews/700168/44 "2014-10-05T04:26:38Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Closer to a million actually. The reason they ‘fought’ for the Germans was actually _because_ German policy was what it was; the choice was starvation in a POW camp or working for the Germans as a [_hiwi_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiwi_(volunteer)) or in an Ost-Bataillon. The million includes the unarmed laborers. I’m talking about Russians who actively took up arms. But while some joined to avoid starvation in PoW camps, there were a number who actively signed up for ideological reasons, or to get rid of Communism or Stalin. There were actually some Red Army soldiers who surrendered with the intention of switching sides. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2014, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitlers-practical-reason-for-killing-the-jews/700168/45 "2014-10-05T04:29:03Z")
Lizzie Collingham presents an unusual argument in _The Taste of War: World War Two and the Battle for Food_. She says that the primary motive for the Holocaust was food. War consumes a lot of resources and reduces food production. And Germany had experienced widespread hunger during World War I as a result of the blockade. So Hitler wanted another war but he was afraid of a repeat of the WWI-era hunger. He felt the Nazi regime might lost its public support in the face of that. So he insisted that Germans would not experience any economic suffering during his wars. The result was the Hunger Plan. It argued that while food production might decline during a war, it could be compensated for by reducing food consumption. In blunter terms, it said that “enemies of Germany” should be eliminated so the food they would have otherwise eaten could then be diverted to feed Germans. And given the existing Nazi views, the Jews were the first group designated as being undeserving of the food they consumed. Personally, I think Collingham oversells the argument. The Hunger Plan did exist but I don’t think it was as central to the Holocaust as she claims. At most, it gave the Nazis further reason to do something they already were inclined towards. But it did present a rationale for killing Jews on a large scale rather than via a smaller more gradual program. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2014, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitlers-practical-reason-for-killing-the-jews/700168/46 "2014-10-05T05:01:40Z")
Not that I am here to make unfounded accusations of Hitler ever making any sense, but, why no just put all these people to work growing more food? ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2014, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitlers-practical-reason-for-killing-the-jews/700168/47 "2014-10-05T06:04:32Z")
> [@filmstar-en](#): > > I can see where this is going, you seem to be suggesting that any attempt at looking at this question in a broader context is tantamount to denying the Holocaust. Clearly you don’t see where this is going; you have absurdly suggested that the Einsatzgruppen murdered 2 million Jews and communists in open air mass shootings during Barbarossa “In order to suppress any organised uprisings”, taken the fear of communists infecting the German people as they had in 1918 according to the stab-in-the-back myth as the reason for the Commissar Order at face value rather than the historical tripe about Judeo-Bolshevism that it is, and suggest that there was some reason other than Nazi racial policy that 3.3 million Soviet POWs were deliberately starved to death or that the Nazis planned on virtually exterminating the Slavic peoples after they had won the war. > [@filmstar-en](#): > > However, there seems little point in discussing it further in this forum given the trajectory the tone is taking. The only reason there is little point in discussing it is the utter lack of validity to the bullshit you are claiming. > [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > The million includes the unarmed laborers. I’m talking about Russians who actively took up arms. In that case the number, while hard to pin down with any real precision, is at least 427,000, the figure reported in Ostlegionen in late 1943 when Hitler first demanded they be disbanded, but relented when presented with the figures and instead ordered most of them transferred to the West. [Wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostlegionen#Ostbataillone): > [@](#): > > The East Battalions were battalion size units that wore German uniforms and equipment that were integrated into larger German formations. They began as the private initiatives of individual military commanders, but eventually became formalized and by late 1943 they contained 427,000 volunteers and conscripts, a force equivalent to 30 German divisions. [Feldgrau](http://www.feldgrau.com/articles.php?ID=54): > [@](#): > > During 1943 the number of volunteers in the eastern formations increased allegedly to some 800,000.(19) In September of that year, a new blow fell upon these formations.(20) According to exaggerated comments on German reports, Soviet troops broke through German lines chiefly because of the “treacherous” behavior of the Russian volunteer formations. Hitler flew into a rage; He ordered that all eastern formations be immediately disbanded, and that 80,000 of them, as first contingent, immediately be sent to France as coal-diggers. > > He also demanded that the progress of the disbanding was to be reported to him every 48 hours. The Chief of the General Staff was also furious and at first did not want to hear of any delay in carrying out the order. However, when he was finally convinced that the facts were greatly exaggerated, and that it was impossible to withdraw from the front more than 3-5 thousand men, he decided to intervene. After three days Hitler modified his order; Only formations from the broken sector of the front were disbanded. > > According to a statement of the General of Eastern Troops, seemingly made at that time, there were then on the entire Russian Front 427,000 ex-Soviet soldiers serving in the eastern formations, who would have to be replaced by German soldiers in case they were disbanded.(21) This figure did not include over 100,000 “Hiwi” who were not recognized as soldiers, nor Latvian, Estonian and Ukrainian formations. A few days later, when Hitler seemed appeased, he issued a new order: the Eastern Troops were to be withdrawn from the Russian Front and sent to other theaters of operation. Thus, in the autumn of 1943, some 70 to 80% of the Eastern troops were gradually withdrawn from the Russian front and moved to Poland, France, Italy, the Balkans, etc. In this way Hitler deprived the eastern formations of their essential reason for existence- the fight against the Soviets. > [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > But while some joined to avoid starvation in PoW camps, there were a number who actively signed up for ideological reasons, or to get rid of Communism or Stalin. There were actually some Red Army soldiers who surrendered with the intention of switching sides. Indeed some did, imagining that the devil they didn’t know would be better than the devil they did know, but compared to the total numbers they were very much in the minority. Hell, there were even a few [British POWs](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Free_Corps) who signed up with the Nazis to rid the world of communism. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2014, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitlers-practical-reason-for-killing-the-jews/700168/48 "2014-10-05T06:38:45Z")
In any discussion of this subject it is worth pointing interested parties to Kenneth Branagh’s film “[Conspiracy](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPIctGbAZEQ)”. Based on the 1942 [Wannsee Conference](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wannsee_Conference) held by Heydrich. It doesn’t directly address the OP’s question but the discussions held do give some insight. Also, it acts as a perfect illustration of “the banality of evil” ( plus Kenneth Branagh is on top form and that is always worth watching) ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2014, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitlers-practical-reason-for-killing-the-jews/700168/49 "2014-10-05T07:59:39Z")
[QUOTE=the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum] Second only to the Jews, Soviet prisoners of war were the largest group of victims of Nazi racial policy. [/QUOTE] I suppose one could argue that the entirety of Operation Barbarossa falls under “Nazi racial policy,” in which case the Soviet dead all in all (some 20 million) far outnumber the Jewish dead (some 6 million). > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > So Hitler wanted another war but he was afraid of a repeat of the WWI-era hunger. He felt the Nazi regime might lost its public support in the face of that. So he insisted that Germans would not experience any economic suffering during his wars. Yeah. Göring, who had Hitler’s ear, insisted on absolute autarky, precisely to avoid the disasters of WWI. Schacht, his Minister of Economics 1934-1937, considered this absolutely bugfuck idiotic, and “argued that goods could be obtained through foreign trade at a fraction of the cost of developing the goods internally or creating _ersatz_ substitutes.” But Hitler wouldn’t budge, Göring got his way, and Schacht was pushed even further towards his eventual resignation. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2014, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitlers-practical-reason-for-killing-the-jews/700168/50 "2014-10-05T18:35:22Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > > [@United States Holocaust Memorial Museum](#): > > > > Second only to the Jews, Soviet prisoners of war were the largest group of victims of Nazi racial policy. > > I suppose one could argue that the entirety of Operation Barbarossa falls under “Nazi racial policy,” in which case the Soviet dead all in all (some 20 million) far outnumber the Jewish dead (some 6 million). That would be a rather foolish comparison, as the figure of 20 million Soviet war dead on the Eastern Front from 1941-45 (Operation Barbarossa only covers until the end of '41 at best) is just that - dead as a result of war, not necessarily dead as a result of racial policy. The 6 million Jews and 3.3 million Soviet POWs as well as the Romani, homosexuals, mentally and physically disabled murdered by the Nazis were defenseless victims when murdered by their captors and killed by the Nazis specifically for racial or ideological reasons, not as a result of the vagueness of battle. It might come as a surprise to you that not only was Auschwitz originally constructed as a camp for Soviet POWs, but it was there that the first victims of Zyklon B were killed: [600 Soviet POWs](http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007183): > [@](#): > > The Auschwitz-Birkenau and Majdanek extermination camps had originally been constructed for the Soviet POWs that Heinrich Himmler had claimed for himself. The POWs were to be put to work in the huge industrial conglomerates that the SS was planning to set up together with firms such as I.G. Farben. But in January 1942, only a few hundred of the Soviet prisoners who had originally been brought to Auschwitz – out of a total of 10,000 – were still alive, and no further influx was expected. For this reason Himmler decided, in the week following the Wannsee Conference, to fill the camps with 150,000 Jews. In this manner the SS camps for POWs became part of the infrastructure for the murder of the Jews. > > It was when dealing with Soviet POWs at Auschwitz that camp commandant Rudolf Hoess and his assistants experimented with the means of killing that has since become the symbol of Nazi genocide: Zyklon B. In early September 1941, 600 Soviet POWs were selected for execution. Hoess decided to gas them with Zyklon B, also known as hydrogen cyanide, in the Auschwitz I gas chamber. The experimental gassing here also included 250 inmates who had been designated unfit for work. The Nazis had already experimented with gassing as the means to kill people they considered disabled beginning in October 1939. A method was thereby found that would kill millions of people with minimal effort. Those lessons were subsequently applied first to Soviet POWs and then to Jews. By February 1942, 2,000,000 of the 3,300,000 Soviet soldiers in German custody up to that point had died from starvation, exposure, disease, or shooting. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2014, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitlers-practical-reason-for-killing-the-jews/700168/51 "2014-10-05T23:55:42Z")
> [@Mighty\_Girl](#): > > Not that I am here to make unfounded accusations of Hitler ever making any sense, but, why no just put all these people to work growing more food? There’s a limit to how much extra workers will increase food production. So the argument was that putting ten million more people to work on farms wouldn’t produce much more food but killing ten million people who weren’t producing food would mean more food for everyone who was still alive. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitlers-practical-reason-for-killing-the-jews/700168/52 "2014-10-06T00:45:42Z")
> [@filmstar-en](#): > > I guess ‘Nazi racial policy’ is bit of an advance on ‘Hitler was evil and was looking for a scapegoat’, but not much. > > I can see where this is going, you seem to be suggesting that any attempt at looking at this question in a broader context is tantamount to denying the Holocaust. > > I disagree, genocide is a recurring feature of human society and the holocaust is one of the most documented. It should be studied from all angles and all contributing factors should be considered and evaluated because this is one of the most important lessons from history. > > However, there seems little point in discussing it further in this forum given the trajectory the tone is taking. We are discussing it. However, you keep presenting “reasons” that somehow remove it from the realm of simple xenophobia by trying to come up with after-the-fact excuses. The Commissar order has no serious bearing on the actions of the _Einsaztgruppen_ who murdered entire villages or Jewish communities from larger cities including the old and infirm and those too young to present any sort of problem to the Wehrmacht. Studying an issue from all angles does not mean that we have to accept non-facts into the discussion any more than studying evolution from all angles means that we have to allow Creationists or Intelligent Design proponents to be included in scientific discourses. Many among the Nazi leadership probably did buy into the _Dolchstosslegende_ (stab-in-the-back legend), and, had the Germans limited themselves to murdering intellectuals and communist leaders, one might make an argument that that was the basis of their actions. Once they began murdering entire populations–which is what they did from the first day–then we can dismiss that argument as something contrived by Nazi apologists with no basis in fact. As with the “seize their money” idea that you first floated, the rationale seems plausible, but it crumbles when subjected to an analysis of the actual facts. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitlers-practical-reason-for-killing-the-jews/700168/53 "2014-10-06T06:09:12Z")
> [@IMfez](#): > > The anti-Semitic attitude in much of Europe had class undertones. People didn’t like the Jews, not because of religious differences but because they were wealthy and controlled so much. That’s right although I think religious factors were also significant. Hence the ADL saw it as quite significant when Pope Benedict wrote that Temple authorities were the accusers of Jesus, rather than all the Jews. > [@](#): > > The notion of Jewish responsibility for Jesus’ death has dogged relations between Christians and Jews for centuries…. > > He concludes that the “real group of accusers” was the Temple authorities, rather than all the Jews of the time. > > This may have been the general teaching of the Church since 1965, but its amplification by the leader of the Church is significant. For a start, the charge of “deicide” has been a source of tension, because it has been used as an excuse for persecution of Jews. > **[Pope Benedict's book warms Catholic-Jewish relations](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12637128)** > > The BBC's Robert Pigott considers Pope Benedict's relationship with the Jewish community, after he absolved the Jews for the death of Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![Some\_Call\_Me.Tim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Some\_Call\_Me.Tim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Some_Call_Me.Tim)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitlers-practical-reason-for-killing-the-jews/700168/54 "2014-10-06T06:24:42Z")
I didn’t see reference to this yet, but in actual speeches and writings Hitler claimed that his it was his religious faith that inspired him to fight the Jews. See [Cecil’s column](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1699/was-hitler-a-christian) on Hitler’s religion. > [@](#): > > Hitler wrote in Mein Kampf: “I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews. I am doing the Lord’s work.” In 1938, he quoted those same words in a Reichstag speech. > > In a speech delivered April 12, 1922, published in “My New Order,” and quoted in Freethought Today (April 1990), Hitler said: > > My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. > > In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. So, he claimed that it was his Christian faith that inspired him to ‘fight’ ‘the Jewish poison’, and that he was following Christ’s example of wrath against them. I think that this should be taken seriously as forming at least part of his reasons for committing genocide. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitlers-practical-reason-for-killing-the-jews/700168/55 "2014-10-06T07:27:25Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > That would be a rather foolish comparison, as the figure of 20 million Soviet war dead on the Eastern Front from 1941-45 (Operation Barbarossa only covers until the end of '41 at best) is just that - dead as a result of war, not necessarily dead as a result of racial policy. Except that one could make the case that the war against the Soviet Union was, arguably, itself “a result of racial policy.” The basic idea being to crush / subjugate the Slavs, a supposedly “lower” race of men, and re-populate their lands with pure-blooded _Übermenschen_. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitlers-practical-reason-for-killing-the-jews/700168/56 "2014-10-06T07:34:08Z")
> [@Some\_Call\_Me.Tim](#): > > I didn’t see reference to this yet, but in actual speeches and writings Hitler claimed that his it was his religious faith that inspired him to fight the Jews. See [Cecil’s column](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1699/was-hitler-a-christian) on Hitler’s religion. > > So, he claimed that it was his Christian faith that inspired him to ‘fight’ ‘the Jewish poison’, and that he was following Christ’s example of wrath against them. I think that this should be taken seriously as forming at least part of his reasons for committing genocide. Nah. German anti-Semitism had many sources, many roots, many forms – religious, nativist, financial, etc. Hitler, politician that he was, exploited them all. Sometimes, he brought up the Christian angle, as in the example you cite. At other times, he brought up Jewry’s supposed ties to Bolshevism (_Judäo-Bolschewismus_). At other times, he brought up its supposed ties to international finance (_Finanzjudentum_). And so on. To focus solely on the religious angle, to the exclusion of all others, seems quite unwise. ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitlers-practical-reason-for-killing-the-jews/700168/57 "2014-10-06T11:53:57Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > We are discussing it. > > However, you keep presenting “reasons” that somehow remove it from the realm of simple xenophobia by trying to come up with after-the-fact excuses. The Commissar order has no serious bearing on the actions of the _Einsaztgruppen_ who murdered entire villages or Jewish communities from larger cities including the old and infirm and those too young to present any sort of problem to the Wehrmacht. > > Studying an issue from all angles does not mean that we have to accept non-facts into the discussion any more than studying evolution from all angles means that we have to allow Creationists or Intelligent Design proponents to be included in scientific discourses. > > Many among the Nazi leadership probably did buy into the _Dolchstosslegende_ (stab-in-the-back legend), and, had the Germans limited themselves to murdering intellectuals and communist leaders, one might make an argument that that was the basis of their actions. Once they began murdering entire populations–which is what they did from the first day–then we can dismiss that argument as something contrived by Nazi apologists with no basis in fact. > > As with the “seize their money” idea that you first floated, the rationale seems plausible, but it crumbles when subjected to an analysis of the actual facts. I was trying to imagine what makes people participate in genocide, the footsoldiers rather than the generals. I have read that some were reluctant to kill innocent people and some refused and it made them much less effective as a military force. These people were indoctrinated with all kinds of reasons why the killing should be done and yes, many were rubbish. Looking at it that way is not to be an aplogist, a holocaust denier or anything else, it is simply trying to answer the question ‘why did it happen’. What did people believe that made it acceptable to do this both in Germany and in the invaded countries. Many people, even soldiers, are not easily turned into killers. I want to how it happended from the ground up, what the ordinary joe thought, what they believed. ‘Hitler was evil’ and ‘it was Nazi racial policy’ seem very incomplete answers, as does ‘simple xenophobia’ to account for the actions of the people on the ground. However, I appreciate that questioning from this sort of angle is easily misunderstood and so I have abandonned it. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitlers-practical-reason-for-killing-the-jews/700168/58 "2014-10-06T12:50:06Z")
Well, one consideration is that when your average G.I. Joe would have trouble commiting the murders, you recruit people who will. Put them in uniform and Hey Presto!, you have ‘soldiers’ committing crimes. I bet average Joe is not cut out to be a CIA interrogator either. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitlers-practical-reason-for-killing-the-jews/700168/59 "2014-10-06T12:57:37Z")
> [@filmstar-en](#): > > These people were indoctrinated with all kinds of reasons why the killing should be done and yes, many were rubbish. You seem to be saying that some of these reasons were _not_ rubbish. Could you expand on this? ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hitlers-practical-reason-for-killing-the-jews/700168/60 "2014-10-06T13:55:54Z")
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