# HIV-AIDS deniers: WTF? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [December 7, 2013, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiv-aids-deniers-wtf/675720 "2013-12-07T01:31:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiv-aids-deniers-wtf/675720/1 "2013-12-07T01:31:41Z")
There was a 2008 episode of [Law & Order: SVU](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1248638/) on this evening about a doctor who claimed HIV does not cause AIDS. I’ve seen this episode several times and I really like it because I like when stupidity is exposed. I have a few questions. The doctor kept saying that HIV cannot cause AIDS because HIV is a “retro virus” (that’s the name of the episode, “Retro”). What does this mean, chemically/biologically? Also what is the thinking (if any) behind the claim that HIV does not cause AIDS? And what is the _motivation_ behind it? I did a little googling on the subject, but it’s always more rewarding to ask here… ---
**Author:** ![lavenderviolet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/cdc98d/32.png) [@lavenderviolet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lavenderviolet)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiv-aids-deniers-wtf/675720/2 "2013-12-07T03:07:26Z")
I imagine that episode was probably inspired by [Christine Maggiore, who became convinced that she didn’t need to take HIV meds while pregnant and allowed her HIV + daughter to die untreated](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christine_Maggiore). The motivation? A lot of people find HIV and AIDS terrifying, and when people are terrified of something sometimes they choose to cope with it through sheer denial. I think some people find it comforting to think that if the conventional wisdom about HIV and AIDS is wrong then that means they can find a way to cure themselves through some form of unconventional woo and quackery to “beat the odds”. (Although I do wonder if, now that HIV medication has progressed to the point that many HIV+ people on proper treatment can live a fairly normal life for decades, the terror is not quite so extreme and maybe the HIV deniers have lost steam). On the other extreme, you have [“bug chasers” in the gay community, who actively seek out HIV infection](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugchasing). Long story short: There are a lot of crazy and stupid people in this world. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiv-aids-deniers-wtf/675720/3 "2013-12-07T03:13:57Z")
It’s a “retro” virus because it does things backwards from other living things. For the majority of us on this planet, we have a DNA genome that is translated into RNA and then into protein. A retrovirus has an RNA genome that it converts, with many mistakes, into DNA, and then RNA (in a host’s genome once it is taken in) and then protein. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiv-aids-deniers-wtf/675720/4 "2013-12-07T03:30:29Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > It’s a “retro” virus because it does things backwards from other living things. For the majority of us on this planet, we have a DNA genome that is translated into RNA and then into protein. A retrovirus has an RNA genome that it converts, with many mistakes, into DNA, and then RNA (in a host’s genome once it is taken in) and then protein. So…why would such a virus not be capable of causing AIDS or another disease? Or is the argument that people don’t specifically die of AIDS but of a secondary disease/infection, therefore technically HIV wasn’t the \*cause \*of death? ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiv-aids-deniers-wtf/675720/5 "2013-12-07T03:46:57Z")
For those who haven’t heard of Peter Duesberg: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/oe665kg6prw/hqdefault.jpg "Peter Duesberg - interviewed in film 'Positively False - Birth of A Heresy'") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oe665kg6prw) > **[Peter Duesberg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Duesberg)** > > Peter H. Duesberg (born December 2, 1936) is a German-American molecular biologist and a professor of molecular and cell biology at the University of California, Berkeley. He is known for his early research into the genetic aspects of cancer. He is a proponent of AIDS denialism, the claim that HIV does not cause AIDS. > Duesberg received acclaim early in his career for research on oncogenes and cancer. With Peter K. Vogt, he reported in 1970 that a cancer-causing virus of birds had extra genetic... ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiv-aids-deniers-wtf/675720/6 "2013-12-07T04:13:38Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > So…why would such a virus not be capable of causing AIDS or another disease? There is no logical reason to draw that conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![DataX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@DataX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DataX)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiv-aids-deniers-wtf/675720/7 "2013-12-07T04:23:39Z")
There are two claims on this site using the word retrovirus: [http://www.aidsvideos.org/myths/](http://www.aidsvideos.org/myths/) One claims that there is a myth that HIV is a endogenous retrovirus - if true - this would allow them to claim something like it can’t cause disease. HIV is actually exogenous. Another claim is it is the only retrovirus that doesn’t cause disease - also not true according to that page. Anyway - it is no different than any other conspiracy theory - they BELIEVE something - and then try and twist the facts - or find stats that support their belief. Only difference here - is they are more using fancy words - in order to appeal to authority I guess - cause I’m thinking 19 out of 20 people aren’t going to know why they should care that HIV is a retrovirus. So in short - I don’t get why it being a retrovirus would be a problem. But there are at least two items using that word that have been used by others. Obviously it can’t REALLY be a problem - cause if it was - then the REAL scientists would have said “Oh shit - we forgot - this is a retrovirus - boy do we look silly after 30 years - our bad”. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiv-aids-deniers-wtf/675720/8 "2013-12-07T04:47:12Z")
If you want a TV series-episode that encapsulates the AIDS crisis, forget _L&O_ and see the _Babylon 5_ episode [“Confessions and Lamentations”](http://babylon5.wikia.com/wiki/Confessions_and_Lamentations). ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiv-aids-deniers-wtf/675720/9 "2013-12-07T15:17:31Z")
> [@lavenderviolet](#): > > I imagine that episode was probably inspired by [Christine Maggiore, who became convinced that she didn’t need to take HIV meds while pregnant and allowed her HIV + daughter to die untreated](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christine_Maggiore). Oh, and she herself died of pneumonia. And had to be treated for pneumonia about 6 months prior. Having severe bouts of pneumonia like that is nearly synonymous, to the best of my understanding and experience (I worked on a study with patients with AIDS for several years; pneumonia was a common immediate cause of death), with having AIDS or similar immunosuppression. But oh no, other people who buy her story said it had nothing to do with AIDS! Nope, of course not! ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiv-aids-deniers-wtf/675720/10 "2013-12-07T15:35:22Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > There is no logical reason to draw that conclusion. I didn’t think so, but he kept harping on it like it should intuitively make sense. . ---
**Author:** ![Inna\_Minnit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Inna\_Minnit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inna_Minnit)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiv-aids-deniers-wtf/675720/11 "2013-12-07T17:44:56Z")
What little reading I have done on the subject, the thought is that HIV does not cause AIDS, they are usually (but not always) seen sequentially, but it’s not cause and effect. Not saying I buy it, but in the early days of HIV AIDS research, I did think it was stupid to shut down research into unpopular theories simply because we didn’t know much about it. I remember the late 70s / early 80s and the fear of the unknown “gay plague.” I don’t hang out in “high risk” circles, so I haven’t really experienced the devastation. I know some of you lost friends, loved ones and family members. All the rhetoric on both sides should have been tabled to figure out wth was going on sooner. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2013, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiv-aids-deniers-wtf/675720/12 "2013-12-08T00:41:50Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > If you want a TV series-episode that encapsulates the AIDS crisis, forget _L&O_ and see the _Babylon 5_ episode [“Confessions and Lamentations”](http://babylon5.wikia.com/wiki/Confessions_and_Lamentations). Or don’t. While I like the character of the alien doctor, this is a shining example of Goldwyn’s Law. I’m always surprised that David Gerrold didn’t write it. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2013, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiv-aids-deniers-wtf/675720/13 "2013-12-08T01:23:22Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > I didn’t think so, but he kept harping on it like it should intuitively make sense. . There are people who think that “George W. Bush is a shape-shifting reptilian alien from the constellation Draco.” is intuitively obvious and that anyone who disagrees with it is an Illuminati shill and probably a Jew, to boot. [David Icke has a posse.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Icke) ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2013, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiv-aids-deniers-wtf/675720/14 "2013-12-08T01:50:35Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > I didn’t think so, but he kept harping on it like it should intuitively make sense. . > [@Derleth](#): > > There are people who think that “George W. Bush is a shape-shifting reptilian alien from the constellation Draco.” is intuitively obvious and that anyone who disagrees with it is an Illuminati shill and probably a Jew, to boot. > > [David Icke has a posse.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Icke) I meant he kept harping on it as if anyone with a knowledge of chemistry or biology would agree that it made sense. “HIV can’t cause AIDS because it’s a \*\*retro \*\*virus!” I was just wondering what was the specific thinking (as I said: **IF ANY** ) behind the insistence that a \*retro \*virus couldn’t cause a disease. What is it about the characteristic of being **RETRO that (in his mind, again: IF ANY**) makes this (in his mind) obviously true. Of course, he’s full of shit. That goes without saying. I didn’t take biology in college. Took physics. All that nice clean magnetism and electricity–no bodily fluids. ETA: Maybe it’s something as simple as saying a car that only operates in reverse can’t possibly crash head-first into something. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2013, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiv-aids-deniers-wtf/675720/15 "2013-12-08T02:03:51Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > I meant he kept harping on it as if anyone with a knowledge of chemistry or biology would agree that it made sense. “HIV can’t cause AIDS because it’s a \*\*retro \*\*virus!” I was just wondering what was the specific thinking (as I said: **IF ANY** ) behind the insistence that a \*retro \*virus couldn’t cause a disease. What is it about the characteristic of being **RETRO that (in his mind, again: IF ANY**) makes this (in his mind) obviously true. You’re talking about a character on a TV show, right? I don’t think there’s anything to “get” here, it’s just a pseudo-scientific sounding line the writers came up with. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2013, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiv-aids-deniers-wtf/675720/16 "2013-12-08T04:53:51Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > You’re talking about a character on a TV show, right? I don’t think there’s anything to “get” here, it’s just a pseudo-scientific sounding line the writers came up with. I assumed that since this plot/character was based on a real situation, the character was using the same argument that the real person used in real life. I didn’t think the writers just came up with: -Let’s say that HIV can’t cause AIDS because it’s a _retro_ virus! -Yeah! That’s the ticket! -Did you just make that up? -Uh-huh. -Wow. You’re good.