# HIV Test bogus, says PCR inventor **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 3, 2003, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiv-test-bogus-says-pcr-inventor/199403 "2003-09-03T21:05:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2003, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiv-test-bogus-says-pcr-inventor/199403/261 "2003-09-12T17:12:29Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **Tommyturtle** _ > > I promise you…I had not then nor do I now have some underlying agenda to to blame gays for this disease in any way Well you continue to harp on your point that anal sex is riskier when all you have are guesses and ill-informed opinions. Since you’re the one making the claim, you need to provide the proof, no? All it does is make you sound like you’re saying “GAYS = ANAL SEX = AIDS,” and that’s a simple and dangerous platitude to espouse. > [@](#): > > This was not meant to be a personal attack on you OR any of your friends I didn’t say it was, but because I have such close ties to the medical community, I take offense at your implication that all medical professionals are only concerned about money. You’re starting to sound like these “AIDS deniers,” and trust me, that doesn’t help how others perceive you around here. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Tommyturtle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8491ac/32.png) [@Tommyturtle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tommyturtle)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2003, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiv-test-bogus-says-pcr-inventor/199403/262 "2003-09-12T19:53:09Z")
I had a hypothesis…I used REASONING to support what I said…a quick survey of almost ANY of the cites for ANYTHING in this thread shows providing an outside cite means virtually nothing to the opposing side in this thread since it seems some have their viewpoint and can always find SOME way of discrediting the cite for practically any reason So I tried a different way of supporting my hypothesis just using reason to support what I was saying I said what I thought could be true…I offered a way to make the numbers(of who got infected and why) add up and covered all of YOUR reasons why if what you claim was true the numbers still would not add up While what I said(anal sex is riskier than vaginal sex) COULD be wrong…NOTHING you have offered as an explanation for the numbers explains the problem As for this > [@](#): > > I didn’t say it was, but because I have such close ties to the medical community, I take offense at your implication that all medical professionals are only concerned about money. You’re starting to sound like these “AIDS deniers,” and trust me, that doesn’t help how others perceive you around here. I NEVER not one time said ALL medical professionals are ONLY concerned about money…I gave my reason for having my doubts and not once did you address THAT…you just became “offended” I would impugn the medical profession when I had VERY good reasons for people(not just me) to have those very same doubts And trying to lump me in with the AIDS deniers seems to ME like an effort to discredit me because you are unable to explain my point therefore you’re taking the easy way out by just making my whole point of view not worthy of debating I do NOT have some hidden agenda and if you came up with a VALID reason to make what I said wrong I would accept it and consider it closed…so far you have NOT In fact you seem to have given that up and are now trying to paint me as a gay hating person who wants to blame the AIDS problem on gays and the misconduct of ENTIRE medical profession Is this even a debate anymore? ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiv-test-bogus-says-pcr-inventor/199403/263 "2003-09-13T00:07:56Z")
As I said before, if you’re the one making the hypothesis, you need to prove it. When I have time, however, I’ll see if I can help you find some relevant cites about the inherent risks of various kinds of sexual intercourse in relation to HIV/AIDS exposure. I still don’t understand why you’re harping on the whole “anal sex is riskier than vaginal sex” other than you can’t seem to find evidence to support the statement. Such harping only makes you look like a bit of a homophobe, IMHO. But if it’s education you want, I (and others) will try to help, when we can. And regardless of your intent, what you wrote: > [@](#): > > …there ARE very compelling NON-scientific reason$ for some in the scientific community not to want to upset the apple cart … reads, IMHO, as a pretty broad brush. I think your “reasoning” as to why you said it is spurious, paranoid, and a little conspiracy theorist… just like the AIDS deniers in this thread, no? Hence the comparison. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Tommyturtle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8491ac/32.png) [@Tommyturtle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tommyturtle)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiv-test-bogus-says-pcr-inventor/199403/264 "2003-09-13T19:26:26Z")
I gave my reasons for what I said and you gave yours to refute me…however even if I accept what YOU say the numbers do not add up I wasn’t in the beginning even thinking gay vs straight…I had personal reasons for wondering if anal is riskier than vaginal sex I became sexually active in the late 70s from a small town and when I went to college(in a big city) I went a little nuts and got very wild…I partied all the time and had sex as often as I could…I personally did not use a condom for TEN years after I began having sex…I had tried anal a couple of times but virtually most of the sex I had was vaginal…like 99% of my friends at the time No one I knew back then(or since) got infected nor did I…I realize we all could just of been lucky…it happens But I wondered…was it just luck?(rereading this I realized I am also lucky no kid showed up on my doorstep years later calling me daddy too) Then you figure in the number of people who got infected and who they happened to more than likely be and it raised an interesting hypothesis IS anal sex more risky than vaginal? I think it’s a valid question whether you feel offended or not As to the other point…whether there is a vast conspiracy among the medical community to keep the money rolling in? I have no idea…I added the question simply because I knew of a similar event in the past that this discussion brought to mind(the ulcer guy)…now even you have not denied something VERY much like what is postulated in this thread HAS happened in the past…hell it’s a matter of record The FACT that it happened at least once means your side has to go the extra mile to PROVE it is not happening again There are doctors who get kickbacks from drug companies for prescribing THIS drug instead of THAT drug to their patients…why? Some drug companies give groups of doctors trips to exotic locations where they “teach” them(via couple hour meetings over a vacation weekend) who would be a good candidate for their particular drug in hopes that the doctor then will favor that drug rather than another one…why? I have read that Valium is considered one of the most OVER-prescribed drugs given to many who get no real benefit because they don’t really need it in the first place…why? The time is long past where doctors are considered demigods who can do no wrong…they are people like any other with the same failings the rest of us have Not all do these things but how does the average person separate the wheat from the chaff? You don’t have to be a paranoid or a conspiracy theorist to want to be certain of the facts…we ARE talking life and death here You’d have to be crazy NOT to ask these questions BTW Up until you mentioned you were gay I didn’t know…I no doubt had read some post of yours that said something about it but I don’t keep track of who is gay or not…I don’t change the points I am trying to make depending on who I am debating I can see however why you might have suspicions of my motives for posting what I have so far because of others in the past who might not have had the best of intentions It does occur to me these situations are comparable…you don’t know me and don’t know WHY I am saying what I am…I don’t know those who say various things about AIDS and in the past SOME medical professionals have been less than honest about THEIR reasons for saying what THEY do I don’t think you paranoid for questioning MY motives…why do you suggest I’m paranoid for questioning the medical establishment on this matter given their history? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2003, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiv-test-bogus-says-pcr-inventor/199403/265 "2003-09-14T01:38:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tommyturtle \* > \*\* > I have no idea…I added the question simply because I knew of a similar event in the past that this discussion brought to mind(the ulcer guy)…now even you have not denied something VERY much like what is postulated in this thread HAS happened in the past…hell it’s a matter of record > > The FACT that it happened at least once means your side has to go the extra mile to PROVE it is not happening again > \*\* WRONG. The burden of proof rests with the person making the claim. The “ulcer guy” had to provide proof that he was right. He did and the proof held up. If somebody claims that HIV does not cause AIDS, it’s their responsibility to provide proof of their claim. ---
**Author:** ![Tommyturtle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8491ac/32.png) [@Tommyturtle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tommyturtle)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2003, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiv-test-bogus-says-pcr-inventor/199403/266 "2003-09-14T09:43:05Z")
> [@](#): > > The burden of proof rests with the person making the claim. The “ulcer guy” had to provide proof that he was right. He did and the proof held up. > > If somebody claims that HIV does not cause AIDS, it’s their responsibility to provide proof of their claim. I actually agree with you on this point The ulcer guy(I feel stupid calling him that but I’m too lazy to look him up) had his ducks in a row right from the start because he knew there would be some people who had vested interests in not accepting what he was saying…in the beginning it STILL didn’t help him much If he had not held his ground he could very well now be the guy in the corner seat in a bar telling whoever would listen how he discovered a new bacteria and being laughed at for his troubles From what I have read it was a close call DESPITE all his proof As for HIV=AIDS I am not on EITHER side…it is an interesting situation because you PROBABLY are correct and HIV=AIDS but given there seem to be still so many questions about it and given well…the ulcer guy’s situation in the past and the other points I brought up…I can’t just blindly accept it I’m not trying to be difficult for difficulty’s sake I have at least one person who thinks I’m a homophobe and who knows how many who’ve been following this thread who now think I’m an idiot…not exactly what I was going for when I first posted in this thread ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2003, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiv-test-bogus-says-pcr-inventor/199403/267 "2003-09-14T15:37:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tommyturtle \* > \*\*I actually agree with you on this point > > The ulcer guy(I feel stupid calling him that but I’m too lazy to look him up) had his ducks in a row right from the start because he knew there would be some people who had vested interests in not accepting what he was saying…in the beginning it STILL didn’t help him much > > If he had not held his ground he could very well now be the guy in the corner seat in a bar telling whoever would listen how he discovered a new bacteria and being laughed at for his troubles > > From what I have read it was a close call DESPITE all his proof > > As for HIV=AIDS I am not on EITHER side…it is an interesting situation because you PROBABLY are correct and HIV=AIDS but given there seem to be still so many questions about it and given well…the ulcer guy’s situation in the past and the other points I brought up…I can’t just blindly accept it > \*\* The helicobacter plyori causing peptic ulcers model is a classic example of a paradigm shift due to new hypotheses and better data leading to a new paradigm that out performs the old model. It was not a “close call” _once he generated the data_. You can argue he was either a visionary or something of an impatient, egotistical fool to self experiment, but he followed the classic model of doing experiments and generating _powerful new replicable data_ that supported his hypothesis just like Prusiner’s work with prions, and upended portions of the existing paradigm. If the contrarians expect to be taken seriously they need new experiments using the latest methods, generating, new replicable data that will outperform the current paradigm. Relying on rhetorical debates about old and largely (at this point) irrelevant research is not going to get them there. As Marshall (the h pylori guy) himself said - > [@](#): > > The biotechnology age has opened hundreds of new doors for young scientists," Marshall says. “If a testable hypothesis can be developed, then it’s usually only a matter of the right steps to prove or disprove the hypothesis. The reward lies in major advances in how we diagnose and treat disease.” The contrarians need to tack this quote up on their walls. [Here is the fascinating h plylori story in a nutshell](http://science-education.nih.gov/Snapshots.nsf/story?openForm&rtn~SB_Hpylori_Marshall) > [@](#): > > It was 1979. Robin Warren, a pathologist at the Royal Perth Hospital in Western Australia, was examining tissue samples from stomach biopsies under a microscope, and he noticed several areas of inflammation. In every case, he saw spiral-shaped bacteria close to the irritated areas, nestled just inside the stomach’s thick mucus layer. Warren wondered how any bacteria could have survived their acidic voyage into the stomach, let alone slip into the mucus that coats the inner surface of the stomach. > > With the aid of a young doctor named Barry Marshall, Warren tried to grow the bacteria on nutrient-coated culture dishes in the laboratory. They failed. Time after time, the researchers painted culture plates with a solution that contained the mystery bacteria, then left the dishes to incubate for two days. The result was always the same: no growth. > > Then, in April 1982, Warren and Marshall left for the Easter holiday. When they returned to the lab after their five-day break, they were amazed to find thriving bacterial growth on the culture plates! Their problem had not been the culture process, but the length of time the bacteria needed to grow. > > With this stroke of good luck, Warren and Marshall continued to investigate the bacteria, which belong to an entirely new genus, ultimately named Helicobacter (after its helical, or spiral, shape). They used the species name, pylori, because it refers to the region of the stomach near the pyloric valve, a common site for the development of ulcers. The pyloric valve opens from the stomach into the upper end of the intestine, known as the duodenum. > > At this point in the research, Marshall had become convinced that H. pylori –as opposed to stress, acid, or aspirin overuse–was the cause of gastritis and probably of ulcers in most people. > > In 1983, Marshall presented his hypothesis to an international meeting of distinguished specialists in infectious disease. Many of the scientists and physicians attending the meeting were shocked by the notion that bacteria cause gastritis and stomach ulcers. Marshall’s ideas seemed to be the reckless notions of a scientific upstart. Attributing gastritis or ulcers to a bacterial infection seemed outlandish. Martin Blaser of Vanderbilt University School of Medicine in Nashville, Tennessee–a leading American researcher in infectious disease–called Marshall’s ideas “preposterous.” > > Marshall, however, was certain he was on the right track. The results of his work with Warren were published in the respected British medical journal Lancet and research by other scientists supported the association between H. pylori and inflammation of the stomach lining. Most physicians, however, remained unconvinced. > > The reluctance of his colleagues to accept the idea that H. pylori causes ulcers provoked Marshall to act. Intent on proving his point, he made himself the guinea pig. Marshall prepared a broth of active H. pylori and drank it. > > “Those were frustrating times for me,” Marshall recalled in a recent interview. “Most of the experts believed that the presence of H.pylori in those who turned up with ulcer problems was just a coincidence. I planned to give myself an ulcer, then treat myself, to prove that H. pylori can be a pathogen in normal people. I thought about it for a few weeks, then decided to just do it. Luckily, I only developed a temporary infection.” > > That “temporary infection” gave Marshall stomach pain, nausea, and vomiting–classic symptoms of gastritis or the early signs of an ulcer. While he was ill, he underwent an endoscopy, a procedure in which a doctor uses a flexible fiber-optic tube with a tiny video camera on the end to examine the inside of the digestive tract. > > Within a week after ingesting the H. pylori, Marshall’s stomach showed marked inflammation, with crowds of the distinctive spiral bacteria hovering around the areas of inflammation. Marshall became famous for this self-experimentation, and today researchers and doctors recognize H. pylori as the cause of more than 90 percent of ulcers worldwide. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration has approved several combinations of antibiotic drugs as therapy for active H. pylori infection. > > Marshall, once scorned for what seemed to be a ridiculous idea, is now celebrated as a pioneer and a scientific visionary. Martin Blaser, who was initially skeptical about Marshall’s hypothesis, has said that “science needs people with great vision, and Barry has vision.” In 1995, Marshall received the Lasker Award, one of the highest honors in medical research. > > “Rarely do the discoveries of a single individual change the lives of countless millions in the span of a decade,” the Lasker Award committee wrote, “but the revolutionary research of Barry Marshall has accomplished just that. In so doing he has dispelled the darkness surrounding a chronic disease and lighted a pathway to a cure.” > > Barry Marshall’s story tells much about the way innovative scientific work is often accomplished. Beginning with the difficulty of culturing H. pylori and the lucky accident of a five-day holiday break that allowed the bacteria to grow, the discovery and study of H. pylori has been pushed forward by intuition, intellectual courage, and serendipity. Moreover, Marshall demonstrated to his peers and to the world at large a powerful motivation to know the truth. He was willing to stand up to ridicule from other scientists and to infect himself with H. pylori in his quest to learn whether the bacterium causes infection and illness in human beings. > > The biotechnology age has opened hundreds of new doors for young scientists," Marshall says. “If a testable hypothesis can be developed, then it’s usually only a matter of the right steps to prove or disprove the hypothesis. The reward lies in major advances in how we diagnose and treat disease.” Marshall is particularly excited about genetics research, a field of inquiry that he believes holds the promise of “understanding the true mechanisms of what are now mysterious disease processes. This is a very exciting time to be involved in medical science,” he says. ---
**Author:** ![Tommyturtle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8491ac/32.png) [@Tommyturtle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tommyturtle)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2003, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiv-test-bogus-says-pcr-inventor/199403/268 "2003-09-14T19:22:08Z")
**astro** Thanks for providing the link with the guy’s name and his story I remember reading about this at the time but I didn’t remember all the details I do think it’s interesting that in a fit of frustration he ingested the bacteria himself to prove he was right as sort of a last ditch effort…I can’t begin to imagine how he must of felt at the time to take such a drastic step As for this debate about HIV and AIDS…on one hand I don’t see any “deniers” doing something similar but I also realize risk-wise it would take someone pretty foolish to inject themselves with HIV to prove THEIR contention…it would be a lot harder to live with AIDS than it would be to live with an ulcer if they’re wrong > [@](#): > > Marshall says. “If a testable hypothesis can be developed, then it’s usually only a matter of the right steps to **prove or disprove the hypothesis**. The reward lies in major advances in how we diagnose and treat disease.” Bolding mine As I’ve said before I do think there is probably something to the HIV=AIDS theory but not enough is known currently to say 100% and therein lies the debate here Despite what some have said in this thread I don’t think you necessarily have to be “nuts” to want that certainty ---
**Author:** ![feistyALgal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5e9695/32.png) [@feistyALgal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/feistyALgal)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiv-test-bogus-says-pcr-inventor/199403/269 "2003-09-15T04:23:07Z")
The USA is not allowing Medical Ozone to be used as a treatment/cure for HIV… why? Because the pharmaceutical companies would lose billions of dollars. There’s a CURE for HIV, it’s Medical Ozone, but you won’t find anyone here in the USA talking about it. They have all of the treatments in Europe/Scandinavia/Pacific Rim… but not in the USA. If anyone wants to google MEDICAL OZONE, go for it. There are sites that explain exactly how medical ozone works to fight cancer, HIV , and other diseases as well. And I don’t believe for a second that HIV causes AIDS, specifically, because they keep redefining what AIDS is, to encapsulate a lot of things… People live with HIV for more than a decade without it becoming AIDS. They also become CURED of HIV in Europe… ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiv-test-bogus-says-pcr-inventor/199403/270 "2003-09-15T04:57:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by feistyALgal \* > \*\*The USA is not allowing Medical Ozone to be used as a treatment/cure for HIV… why? Because the pharmaceutical companies would lose billions of dollars. > > There’s a CURE for HIV, it’s Medical Ozone, but you won’t find anyone here in the USA talking about it. They have all of the treatments in Europe/Scandinavia/Pacific Rim… but not in the USA. > > If anyone wants to google MEDICAL OZONE, go for it. > > There are sites that explain exactly how medical ozone works to fight cancer, HIV , and other diseases as well. > > And I don’t believe for a second that HIV causes AIDS, specifically, because they keep redefining what AIDS is, to encapsulate a lot of things… People live with HIV for more than a decade without it becoming AIDS. > > They also become CURED of HIV in Europe… \*\* Since you’re making fairly astounding claims that directly contravenes much of what scientific studies tell us about HIV and AIDS, could you possibly provide a reference for a peer reviewed scientific study or two that supports the bold assertion that “medical ozone” cures AIDS, because if that’s the case the insurance companies and HMOs laying out billions for AIDS care would love to hear about it. I realize you may consider telling us to “google it” is reference enough, but humor us please with a peer reviewed citation or two. We would be ever so grateful. ---
**Author:** ![feistyALgal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5e9695/32.png) [@feistyALgal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/feistyALgal)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiv-test-bogus-says-pcr-inventor/199403/271 "2003-09-15T05:24:34Z")
I said HIV, not AIDS, as far as curing… but anyway… [http://www.oxytherapy.com/oxyfiles/oxy00334.html](http://www.oxytherapy.com/oxyfiles/oxy00334.html) [http://www.appliedozone.com/references.html](http://www.appliedozone.com/references.html) (scroll down til you see this “INTERNATIONAL M.D. LIST 33 MAJOR HUMAN DISEASES SUCCESSFULLY TREATED WITH OZONE” [http://www.edelsoncenter.com/Diseases\_Treatment/medical\_ozone\_therapy\_yp.htm](http://www.edelsoncenter.com/Diseases_Treatment/medical_ozone_therapy_yp.htm) [http://www.ozongesellschaft.de/index-e.html](http://www.ozongesellschaft.de/index-e.html) \*\*\*\*\* that should get you started in reading… enjoy. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiv-test-bogus-says-pcr-inventor/199403/272 "2003-09-15T05:59:03Z")
Feisty- Four sites pushing product and making broad claims. Assertions that ozone is a miracle cure all not backed up by data. One of the sites does mention a study published in a peer reviewed journal. It does not link to the study or give data. The Applied Ozone site does contain this > [@](#): > > Seasilver Purchaser Notice: Previously, Seasilver has claimed that its product can cure cancer, diabetes, and a host of other serious diseases and conditions, and that it results in significant and permanent weight loss without dieting. No clinical studies support these claims. In fact, medical experts state that these claims are highly implausible and likely false. If you are under a physician’s care, it is very important that you do not discontinue or reduce any prescription medication without consulting your physician. > > In addition, at one time Seasilver claimed that its product provided the health benefits of natural cranberries, although it contained no natural cranberry. Rather Seasilver contained artificial cranberry flavoring. and > [@](#): > > High colonic irrigation colon cleansing is a safe and simple method that irrigates the large intestine with water (gravity flow) to clean out the years of toxins and accumulated waste lining the walls of the colon. Removing the years of this buildup improves colon function and other normal functions > [@](#): > > We poison ourselves from our own toxic waste and the waste from these creatures (autointoxication) when this ideal habitat for is created ``` The concept of toxins acccumulating in the colon and causing auto intoxication has been throroughly disproven. ``` They endorse a disproven concept. They continue to sell a product that was fined by the FTC for making false claims. Does this seem like a company you should trust? ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiv-test-bogus-says-pcr-inventor/199403/273 "2003-09-15T06:02:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by feistyALgal \* > \*\*I said HIV, not AIDS, as far as curing… but anyway… > > [http://www.oxytherapy.com/oxyfiles/oxy00334.html](http://www.oxytherapy.com/oxyfiles/oxy00334.html) > > [http://www.appliedozone.com/references.html](http://www.appliedozone.com/references.html) > (scroll down til you see this “INTERNATIONAL M.D. LIST 33 MAJOR HUMAN DISEASES SUCCESSFULLY TREATED WITH OZONE” > > [http://www.edelsoncenter.com/Diseases\_Treatment/medical\_ozone\_therapy\_yp.htm](http://www.edelsoncenter.com/Diseases_Treatment/medical_ozone_therapy_yp.htm) > > [http://www.ozongesellschaft.de/index-e.html](http://www.ozongesellschaft.de/index-e.html) > > \*\*\*\*\* that should get you started in reading… enjoy. \*\* Sorry must be getting blind in my old age. Lots of cheerleading, but I didn’t see a single peer reviewed study cited that claimed “medical ozone” sucessfully removed HIV from an infected person. Some claimed killing of HIV on contact, but lots of things will kill HIV in and out of blood, the trick is getting them to do this inside the body without killing the patient. Ozone is an effective antibacterial and disinfectant agent for certian applications. So is bleach. Out of curiosity re your claimed “suppression of information” scenario, the insurance/HMO industry is at least as powerful influence-wise as the pharmaceutical and medical special interests, and some would say considerably _more_ powerful. It would seem to be in their best interests to limit their expeditures if medical oxygen therapy is as effective as you seem to indicate. Why has this not happened? Why are the insurance companies somehow cowed by the medical establishment that normally kow-tows to them on most other matters, because they write the checks. Why not this time? 'Tis a puzzlement. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiv-test-bogus-says-pcr-inventor/199403/274 "2003-09-15T06:20:04Z")
Oh and by the way feistyALgal this site may be of interest to you. [Myths, Scams and Flat Out Lies](http://missoula.bigsky.net/ravaids/Myths.htm) > [@](#): > > Question: Is HIV really the cause of AIDS? > Answer: Yes. We have been dealing with HIV and AIDS for nearly twenty years now and have amassed a huge empirical database that clearly shows that HIV is the cause of AIDS. > > Question: Then why do some people say HIV doesn’t cause AIDS? > > Answer: The majority of people we have encountered who are trying to sell the idea HIV is not the cause of AIDS have personal agendas, usually involving attempts to gain status and increase their bank accounts. These people will tell you they have been rejected by the traditional medical community because they have the “truth” and no one wants to believe it because there is profit to be made from desperate people. Well they have the last part right. These people are parasites who have nothing to offer you except BS. As proof of thrir theories they will offer testimonials, and sometimes quote data from as long ago as 1920. We spend a great deal of time checking out such claims and have never once found any truth to their claims. > > Question: Why are there so many people promoting this idea now then? > > Answer: The conference In Durbin last summer (2000) seems to have brought these people out of hiding as they believe they have a unique opportunity to cash in on people’s fears and desperation. If HIV is not the cause of AIDS why, they have a theory that will prevent or cure AIDS. There are tens of thousands of people working to find a cure for AIDS, or at least treatment to manage the disease. They would welcome any kind of data or information leading to the end of AIDS. When you encounter people who espouse the “no HIV” theories our advice is to run, not walk away as fast as possible while guarding your wallet. > > Question: You mean I still have to use condoms? Isn’t AIDS pretty much over? > > Answer: Yes you still must use condoms because HIV is still with us and infecting more and more people. Many people read a newspaper article or hear part of a report and incorrectly come away with the idea AIDS is not a problem anymore…that if there were still people dying more would be in the media > > Question: Why would anyone purposely distort the truth about AIDS? > > ## Answer: There are probably a few honest souls who buy the propganda and really believe the government…pharmaceutical industry…whoever are purposely hiding the “truth” . The vast majority however we have found know exactly what they are doing - taking advatage of people in desperate situations. Some of these people, call themselves “dissidents” and have no end of the conspiracy theories. They may not be making any actual money but the “high” they get from being a “victim or persecuted” is for them almost like a drug. > > Treatments > > - Ozone Therapy - This “cure” has been around for a long time and been touted as a cure for everything from cancer to diabetes, and now as a cure for AIDS. The people who want to sell you this bogus theory will tell you how you are not getting enough oxygen to your cells. They will tell you how “unclean” blood from a person with HIV will be treated with ozone and be “red and healthy” when given back to the patient. Utter nonsense. Most people who have healthy lungs have O2 saturation levels of 97 - 100. You cannot go past 100 for a blood O2 saturation of say, 105 or 110 - not possible. And not only will it do nothing for you except cost you money but in certain amounts and certain kinds of exposure ozone is toxic to humans. There is nothing “Ozone Therapy” has to offer anyone - including people living with HIV and AIDS. > > * * * > > How To Spot A Fraud > > There are some common denominators found in frauds and scam artists. One of the major claims from these people is that they have been persecuted by the traditional medical community. That they possess information or a cure that the medical community doesn’t want you to know about. Depending on how much they want your money and support (they LOVE using testimonials but there are never any data to back up their claims), they may even tell you of extreme harassment and their lives being in danger because they have the “truth” Well their lives may indeed be in danger from people they have bilked out of money but the conspiracy theories they espouse have holes in them you could drive the proverbial Mac truck through. > > Anyone who makes promises of a cure is at the least a fraud and by some people’s definition, evil. They will take your money, your trust, extract testimonials from you and then leave you worse off than before. Basically if it sounds too good to be true it probably is too good to be true. It’s damned difficult to examine so carefully claims to help especially when you are in the midst of dealing with something that can be so devastating, like AIDS. But you have to use good judgment and common sense. It may be hard to believe that there are people out there who would deliberately deceive you about a treatment for money but they are out there and only you can decide if the “treatment” is worth trying or not. But please be very careful. If you decide to pursue questionable treatments please do think it over and act with logic, not desperation. ---
**Author:** ![feistyALgal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5e9695/32.png) [@feistyALgal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/feistyALgal)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiv-test-bogus-says-pcr-inventor/199403/275 "2003-09-15T13:13:20Z")
I guess we’ll all just believe what we choose to believe. There are at least 15 pages to google in regards to medical ozone. Here’s another site: [http://www.odatus.com/aids.html](http://www.odatus.com/aids.html) But that’s ok, I won’t try to convince you further. Let’s all just believe what we want to believe, and be done with it. … moving on to the next topic ---
**Author:** ![GSV\_Consolation\_of\_Dreams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f1d935/32.png) [@GSV\_Consolation\_of\_Dreams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GSV_Consolation_of_Dreams)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiv-test-bogus-says-pcr-inventor/199403/276 "2003-09-15T13:43:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by feistyALgal \* > \*\*I guess we’ll all just believe what we choose to believe. > > There are at least 15 pages to google in regards to medical ozone. > > Here’s another site: > > [http://www.odatus.com/aids.html](http://www.odatus.com/aids.html) > > But that’s ok, I won’t try to convince you further. Let’s all just believe what we want to believe, and be done with it. > > … moving on to the next topic \*\* Another site pushing O3 products. I haven’t tried this myself, but maybe you should try plugging “medical ozone” into a search at [www.quackwatch.org](http://www.quackwatch.org). As for this “Let’s all believe what we want to believe” stuff…this isn’t that kind of forum. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiv-test-bogus-says-pcr-inventor/199403/277 "2003-09-15T14:37:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by feistyALgal \* > \*\*I guess we’ll all just believe what we choose to believe. > > There are at least 15 pages to google in regards to medical ozone. > > Here’s another site: > > [http://www.odatus.com/aids.html](http://www.odatus.com/aids.html) > > But that’s ok, I won’t try to convince you further. Let’s all just believe what we want to believe, and be done with it. > > … moving on to the next topic \*\* The real world scientific relevance of your references is practically non-existent, and consist mainly of classic handwaving hucksterism, and yet _you_ are offended when people question your claims. It is screamingly evident that whatever your level of education is, you have neither the educational nor operational background to distinguish real scientific assertions from shinola. I mean come on, it’s almost comical how classic the snake oil pitch is here. At some point don’t you ever stop and consider that the reason medical science maintains that absurd laundry list style claims like the ones you reference are full of crap, is not because medical researchers are evil and ignorant, but because the claims are indeed over-reaching and non-sensical. If ozone really was some miracle, wide ranging anodyne insurance companies would be all over it. Doesn’t _any_ of this drill itself into your skull at some point, or is the notion that you and your fellow enlightened ozone freethinkers are in possession of this pearl of truth in the face of oppression just too much of a mental drug to resist? ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiv-test-bogus-says-pcr-inventor/199403/278 "2003-09-15T17:54:14Z")
Boy, they sure come out of the woodwork, don’t they! “Ozone cures HIV and 33 other diseases!!!” heh. Some days the ignorance seems almost too huge to take arms against. I’ll stick with the orthodox approach, thanks. With each new breakthrough in treatment, my HIV patients are living longer and better. QtM, MD ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiv-test-bogus-says-pcr-inventor/199403/279 "2003-09-15T19:24:42Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **feistyALgal** _ > > There are at least 15 pages to google in regards to medical ozone. Google =/= peer-reviewed journals and sound medical research. Do you believe everything you read on the internet? If so, if you don’t send me 5,000.00 in the next 5 minutes you and 5 of your friends will have BAD LUCK for the next 5 YEARS!!!!!!!!@#!#!!! :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > … moving on to the next topic Oh, no - we’re having much fun with this one, thanks. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2003, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiv-test-bogus-says-pcr-inventor/199403/280 "2003-09-16T12:00:27Z")
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