# HIV+ woman wants to "share the wealth". **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [July 11, 2013, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiv-woman-wants-to-share-the-wealth/663224 "2013-07-11T14:14:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiv-woman-wants-to-share-the-wealth/663224/41 "2013-07-11T22:13:07Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > I get that you are attempting to prove some sort of point here but it’s illegal to knowingly expose someone to a potentially deadly disease. From Typhoid Mary to the more recent HIV laws. > > Lying about your wealth, whether or not you have an SO in another city, profession or intentions is not illegal. Gender doesn’t enter into it in any way. I’m not really trying to prove a point so much as point out to the people engaging in recreational outrage what the natural evolution of their ideas are. I understand that people are upset about this. What she did was extremely immoral and awful and scary. But if what she did is _illegal_ then it opens up a lot of questions. If this is rape by deception, as someone else said, then how is lying about having a spouse not also rape by deception? If it’s attempted murder, then how is exposing people to the flu not also attempted murder? These men had unprotected sex with a woman who they did not know, and they did not ask her HIV status. She used protection at least once with one of these men, so she was amenable to using protection, she simply didn’t insist on it. I truly really no-fooling am ok with prosecuting her for this, but I honest to god wonder how some of the people in this thread would react if it the justifications to prosecute here were used in other, similar circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiv-woman-wants-to-share-the-wealth/663224/42 "2013-07-11T22:22:00Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > I truly really no-fooling am ok with prosecuting her for this, but I honest to god wonder how some of the people in this thread would react if it the justifications to prosecute here were used in other, similar circumstances. The problem is that you equated all lies being equal, when that isn’t the case legally or morally. Further you were trying to minimize STDs and their fatality rate and communicability rate to (presumably) try to make them on par with a guy lying about his occupation. As evidenced in this thread and in real life, people would react the same in other circumstances (ex. People have been prosecuted for knowingly putting others at STD risk). So I fail to see where your wonder comes from - I mean what remains a mystery here? ---
**Author:** ![polar\_bear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ec9cab/32.png) [@polar\_bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/polar_bear)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiv-woman-wants-to-share-the-wealth/663224/43 "2013-07-11T22:51:06Z")
Maybe this makes it clearer: Lying in order to get sex _is different from_ lying in order to kill someone (or get them sick… you know what I mean) That might be the difference between being a douche and committing a crime… In any case, the chance of her infecting someone aren’t particularly big… interesting actually, if this would stick in court, then any kind of increased risk could be considered ‘attempt at murder’. ‘Forcing’ someone to drive more than they normally would (for work or whatever), could be considered the exact same thing. ---
**Author:** ![eclectic\_wench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ac91a4/32.png) [@eclectic\_wench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eclectic_wench)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiv-woman-wants-to-share-the-wealth/663224/44 "2013-07-11T23:18:06Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > I fail to see how rape entered the discussion. If you want to charge her with something it is attempted murder. Yeah, I agree. What’s rape got to do with it? The problem here doesn’t lie with the actual sex, it lies with the fact that the sex exposed the guys to something that could kill them. The crime is somewhere on the assault spectrum, not the sex-crime spectrum. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiv-woman-wants-to-share-the-wealth/663224/45 "2013-07-11T23:31:14Z")
> [@eclectic\_wench](#): > > What’s rape got to do with it? > [@](#): > > I’ve been taking on a new direction > But I have to say > I’ve been thinking about my own protection > It scares me to feel this way … ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiv-woman-wants-to-share-the-wealth/663224/46 "2013-07-11T23:32:50Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > I’m not really trying to prove a point so much as point out to the people engaging in recreational outrage what the natural evolution of their ideas are. I understand that people are upset about this. What she did was extremely immoral and awful and scary. But if what she did is _illegal_ then it opens up a lot of questions. If this is rape by deception, as someone else said, then how is lying about having a spouse not also rape by deception? If it’s attempted murder, then how is exposing people to the flu not also attempted murder? As has been cited twice now, having sex with someone if you know that you are HIV+ and not disclosing it is a crime in many jurisdictions. It is illegal on its own. Saying that it’s attempted murder or rape by deception is asinine. Lying to get sex is not a crime and there is actual case law to back that up. There was a famous case about just that. Some douche in the 70’s would go to bars and claim that he was a rich doctor or something. If just regular lying to get sex would be illegal then you’d have all kinds of obvious problems. Then lying about your age or income on [match.com](http://match.com) would be a crime. It would be unenforceable. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiv-woman-wants-to-share-the-wealth/663224/47 "2013-07-11T23:42:08Z")
If you’re buying a blowjob or a used computer for $20 (Canadian; $19.25 US) wouldn’t a viral load be the default assumption? ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiv-woman-wants-to-share-the-wealth/663224/48 "2013-07-11T23:48:51Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > As has been cited twice now, having sex with someone if you know that you are HIV+ and not disclosing it is a crime in many jurisdictions. It is illegal on its own. Saying that it’s attempted murder or rape by deception is asinine. To be fair, Grumman, in post four, made the rape equivalence (lying = rape) and Miss Elizabeth has seemingly taken that ball and run with it. That said, I do not think that anyone else defended that viewpoint. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiv-woman-wants-to-share-the-wealth/663224/49 "2013-07-12T01:35:00Z")
People should keep in mind this happened in Ontario and Canadian law is not the same as American law. The Supreme Court of Canada ruled in 1998 that non disclosure of HIV-positive status to a potential sexual partner could constitute a criminal act ([R. v. Cuerrier](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._v._Cuerrier)). ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiv-woman-wants-to-share-the-wealth/663224/50 "2013-07-12T03:38:30Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > But if what she did is _illegal_ then it opens up a lot of questions. If this is rape by deception, as someone else said, then how is lying about having a spouse not also rape by deception? If it’s attempted murder, then how is exposing people to the flu not also attempted murder? When a similar case came up in Spain, there was no specific law it fell under, but ah! We have something called “crimes against public health”, which was routinely used to cover traffick of new drugs of the non-medical kind as well as food adulterations not covered by their own specific laws. After some discussion between the judges and Parliament it was decided that it worked just fine, so that’s what any such cases continue to fall under. As for why would knowingly and avoidably exposing someone to a transmissible disease be a crime, and exposing people to the flu is not: the key words are “knowingly and avoidably”, and it is also important to note that the disease must be “transmissible” - how infectious it happens to be or not be does not enter the equation. Requiring people to do everything humanly possible to avoid infecting another person with anything ever would have the whole country disguised as astronauts, something which is just not practical (and can you imagine what it would do to tourism?). Condoms on the other hand can be bought in any pharmacy, supermarket, corner store, and from machines in the bathrooms of pretty much any club. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiv-woman-wants-to-share-the-wealth/663224/51 "2013-07-12T06:45:48Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > I’m not really trying to prove a point so much as point out to the people engaging in recreational outrage what the natural evolution of their ideas are. It is not the natural evolution of our idea. Your slippery slopes are not the same as the situation we are discussing. > [@](#): > > If this is rape by deception, as someone else said, then how is lying about having a spouse not also rape by deception? Because some deceptions are more important than others. Claiming you’re 6’0" when you’re really 5’10" is not as significant a lie as refusing to disclose that you have AIDS. > [@](#): > > If it’s attempted murder, then how is exposing people to the flu not also attempted murder? Because it is far more difficult to _not_ expose someone to the flu than it is to not expose people to HIV. Driving also has a non-zero chance of killing somebody, but since you’re taking _reasonable_ precautions to protect the lives of others, it’s not attempted murder even if someone walks out in front of your car. > [@hajario](#): > > As has been cited twice now, having sex with someone if you know that you are HIV+ and not disclosing it is a crime in many jurisdictions. It is illegal on its own. Saying that it’s attempted murder or rape by deception is asinine. It _is_ possible to break more two or more laws with a one action. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiv-woman-wants-to-share-the-wealth/663224/52 "2013-07-12T09:19:23Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > So the fact that transmission was incredibly unlikely; so unlikely as to be essentially impossible, has no bearing on your outrage, right? > The risk of infection was very very low. The odds seem to be between 150-1 and 300-1, for each individual sexual encounter, for a man contracting from an infected woman. Reversing the sexes, women are about twice as likely to be infected. Given that this woman did this habitually, the odds obviously decrease significantly. Impossible, therefore, is incorrect. As is “essentially impossible”. The risk being very very low is a subjective matter. Laws against rape by deception are generally only for cases where it’s clear consent was conditional on something specific, and if the truth was known consent would not have been forthcoming. Dressing up as someone’s spouse to trick them into sex, for example, would be rape. Pretending to be an astronaut, or wearing a push-up bra might be obtaining sex by deception, but isn’t rape. To me, “of course I’m not infected with a potentially lethal sexually transmitted disease” is in the former camp. If they’d known she had HIV, they probably wouldn’t have wanted to have unprotected sex. ---
**Author:** ![Enkel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Enkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enkel)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiv-woman-wants-to-share-the-wealth/663224/53 "2013-07-12T10:35:26Z")
It sounds like the woman is essentially a drug addict and alcoholic. The one ‘victim’ even said that she looked scuzzy when he picked her up and took her home to his place. I have to wonder how effective it is to tell a junkie that when ever they have sex, they have to tell their HIV status. Do you think a horny junkie is going to comply with such a law? Especially if they think that sex will get them money or drugs? I don’t think I read that either of the men asked her HIV status, so there was no lying about her status. They just thought they’d found a free/cheap piece of a\*\*\*. Its fine if the government wants to prosecute her for a crime against public health. But I don’t see any crime against the men. She didn’t tackle them and force them to have sex. They deserve any STD or illness they end up with because **THEY didn’t care to protect themselves** from those STDs or illnesses. This is like when men also put it on women to prevent pregnancy and don’t want to support the kid they create. Men need to just grow up and man up. If a man wants to run around sticking it in any scuzzy old hag that will let them, they deserve everything they get. I don’t feel one bit sorry for them. ---
**Author:** ![Enkel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Enkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enkel)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiv-woman-wants-to-share-the-wealth/663224/54 "2013-07-12T10:41:18Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Because it is far more difficult to _not_ expose someone to the flu than it is to not expose people to HIV. How many times have there been posts on this forum stating that the parents of un-vaccinated children who passed on whooping cough should be held criminally responsible when an infant catches it and dies? At what point do we draw this magical line of responsibility? Both ‘victims’ in this case have proven that they’ll have sex with complete strangers on the street. So, even if they both come down with full blown AIDS in the next year, how can you prove if it came from the woman being prosecuted or one of the many other hags that they’ve courted? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiv-woman-wants-to-share-the-wealth/663224/55 "2013-07-12T10:43:41Z")
> [@Enkel](#): > > This is like when men also put it on women to prevent pregnancy and don’t want to support the kid they create. No, it’s not. It is the natural state of a man to be able to conceive children. A reasonable person understands this, and so informing someone of this fact is like telling them that you have two arms. The natural state of a woman is _not_ to be infected with HIV. Unlike the fertile man, she is an outlier, and so cannot rely on the reasonable man to already _know_ she is infected. > [@Enkel](#): > > How many times have there been posts on this forum stating that the parents of un-vaccinated children who passed on whooping cough should be held criminally responsible when an infant catches it and dies? _Because the flu is not whooping cough._ There is no vaccine for influenza comparable to the vaccine for whooping cough, and thus you are not committing a crime by not using countermeasures that are physically impossible. ---
**Author:** ![Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/4af34b/32.png) [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeke_N.Destroi)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiv-woman-wants-to-share-the-wealth/663224/56 "2013-07-12T11:57:51Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Yes, she did. In extraordinary circumstances there is an active obligation for disclosure, and not merely to wait until the other party stumbles upon the subject. You cannot neglect to tell a sexual partner that you have HIV, any more than you can sell someone a car and neglect to tell them that the brake lines have been cut. > > By hiding her disease she rendered any consent invalid, and thus is guilty of rape. I would have to agree with the OP. If you do something stupid and reckless and end up burned - it sucks to be you. If you go out and by some meth or heroin and it’s cut badly or some such you aren’t labelled a victim. Why? You engaged knowingly in reckless behaviour and chose to take your chances. Go broke in Vegas; have the casinos “victimized you” Mrs. Zeke analogized it thus - if a woman is dumb enough to go out and have unprotected sex with a stranger and gets knocked up is she a victim? Stupidity hurts - sometimes worse than others. ---
**Author:** ![Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/4af34b/32.png) [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeke_N.Destroi)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiv-woman-wants-to-share-the-wealth/663224/57 "2013-07-12T12:07:44Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > If you know you have the flu, you aren’t out looking for sex… Sez U 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/4af34b/32.png) [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeke_N.Destroi)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiv-woman-wants-to-share-the-wealth/663224/58 "2013-07-12T12:56:19Z")
**TLDR at bottom** Some choice bits from the [article](http://www.thebarrieexaminer.com/2013/07/10/man-who-had-unprotected-sex-with-infected-woman-takes-witness-stand-in-barrie); **Victim #1** \*“She looks healthier now than back then,” said the witness. “Not like she has been drinking for days and days.” He told the court how he met Murphy as she came along and flirted with him out of the blue as he sat drinking beer on the steps of his downtown area rooming house. After some beers and marijuana, they went to his room and had sexual intercourse, once with a condom and once without a condom."\* So some obviously strung-out chick starts hitting on him and he chooses to get her more wrecked and then fuck her. _She spent two nights with him…_ Wanna bet they had sex more than twice? Also, that’s lots of time for him to ASK. I’ve asked, I’d bet most men have. Almost all of my partners have asked. If you are going to go without then you ask or accept the consequences. - “Would you have had sex with Miss Murphy had you known she was HIV-positive?” asked Crown attorney Bhavna Bhangu. “No,” he answered." \* This seems to be the linchpin - and where arguably Miss Elizabeth has a valid, albeit somewhat strident - point. If the important question is “would you have done it if you had known?” Then why wouldn’t that same standard apply to a woman sleeping with a married man who told her he was single? “Would you have done it if you had known?” Add to that the fact that he is a convicted sex offender (“Would you have had sex with him if you’d known he’d raped a 13 year-old girl?”) and his “Don’t ask don’t tell” attitude toward that; and it is hard to justify his being a “victim” of her committing a lie of omission. Just my opinion and I know the law sayeth otherwise. **Victim #2** \*Murphy had left his room that morning and went around the corner to a convenience store where she met a man in his 60s who paid her $20 to perform oral sex on her in his vehicle.[/] This guy had unprotected oral sex with a hooker - who was clearly in rough shape. 'Nuff said? **Victim #3** “It was a nice, sunny day. We chatted about the weather,” he said, smiling on the witness stand. He said suddenly she cheerfully jumped into his van. “I thought, well this is interesting, I guess we’re going to have sex,” he said brightly. He said they drove to a parking lot in Barrie and removed their clothes in the back of his van, where they had “unprotected” intercourse." It was a nice sunny day when some bedraggled floozy said “nice day”, took off everything but her smile and hopped in my van. "…Well this is interesting. I guess we’re going to have sex.” I see nothing whatsoever about this situation that should make me wary, nay even give me pause. No harm can come of this “interesting” little escapade. Ahh, blessed serendipity. Frankly, in the first case the guy should be prosecuted too since he admitted that she was absolutely blitzed when they fucked. Don’t you have to be sober enough to give informed consent? \<– Honest question of Canadian legal folks. Second guy is guilty of paying for a sex act. Last I heard that’s illegal. The only non-criminal in the bunch is the 50 year-old dipshit whose “interesting” dalliance ought be prosecutable as aggravated stupidity. **TLDR** Two criminals and an oblivious moron fuck a strung-out chick and get an HIV scare. Sux to be them. ---
**Author:** ![Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiv-woman-wants-to-share-the-wealth/663224/59 "2013-07-12T13:39:12Z")
These men aren’t victims. They did stupid things and have to face the consequences of their actions. ---
**Author:** ![Soylent\_Juicy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/82dd89/32.png) [@Soylent\_Juicy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soylent_Juicy)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiv-woman-wants-to-share-the-wealth/663224/60 "2013-07-12T13:57:53Z")
Today’s update: > **[Latest News - Breaking News Stories | Simcoe.com](https://www.simcoe.com)** > > Stay informed with the latest news updates from the Simcoe County news website. Breaking news, top stories, politics, business, sports, & more. I hope he is now a “divorced” man because if that were my husband he’d be out on his ass immediately. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiv-woman-wants-to-share-the-wealth/663224.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiv-woman-wants-to-share-the-wealth/663224.md?page=4)