# Hmm,probably not the smartest idea...\[Pope's preacher compares abuse row to anti-Semitism\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 2, 2010, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hmm-probably-not-the-smartest-idea-popes-preacher-compares-abuse-row-to-anti-semitism/534756 "2010-04-02T18:31:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![qbadger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/fbc32d/32.png) [@qbadger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qbadger)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hmm-probably-not-the-smartest-idea-popes-preacher-compares-abuse-row-to-anti-semitism/534756/21 "2010-04-02T20:15:40Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Right, but he’s saying only that some people in the Church hierarchy did that, but that the entire Catholic hierarchy and Catholic church is being blamed. That doesn’t work when the Pope is accused of being one of the “some people” and of heavy involvement in the cover-up, since he **is** the Hierarchy, especially in the Church’s eye. (Criticising him = criticising the Church) ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hmm-probably-not-the-smartest-idea-popes-preacher-compares-abuse-row-to-anti-semitism/534756/22 "2010-04-02T20:18:00Z")
> [@Anne\_Neville](#): > > What happened is that some people in the Church hierarchy showed that they care more about the reputation of the Church than they do about punishing someone who molested children. You know, I could live with that. What I can’t live with is that they cared more about the reputation of the church than \*\*\*preventing \*\*\*them from molesting \*\*\*more \*\*\*children. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hmm-probably-not-the-smartest-idea-popes-preacher-compares-abuse-row-to-anti-semitism/534756/23 "2010-04-02T21:19:26Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > You know, I could live with that. What I can’t live with is that they cared more about the reputation of the church than \*\*\*preventing \*\*\*them from molesting \*\*\*more \*\*\*children. Not only did they not prevent it, they seem to have been criminally negligient, and were setting up an evironment that made it easier to repeat and repeat and repeat > [@](#): > > [http://www.samefacts.com/](http://www.samefacts.com/) > An ADA in Milan who heads the child abuse team there gives a partial answer to that question today: at least on his beat, never. “The list of abusing priests is so long that I have to wonder if many of them deliberately chose the calling in order I to have access to children….[but] I have never received a single denunciation from anywhere in the Catholic hierarchy from bishops down to sacristans or teachers….when we investigate a priest for these crimes, we have to do it completely on our own, usually on the basis of denunciations from victims’ families.” And he doesn’t have much respect for the internal machinery of the church: “Not only weren’t they punished, they were frequently just moved to another diocese to offend again.” [translations are free but accurate in content, check at the link] > > [Pedofilia, il pm di Milano denuncia: «La lista dei preti inquisiti è lunga» - Corriere della Sera](http://www.corriere.it/cronache/10_aprile_01/pedoflia-pm-milano_c4318994-3d5f-11df-9bd9-00144f02aabe.shtml) > > [Notizie di cronaca del Corriere della Sera](http://www.corriere.it/International/english/articoli/2010/03/26/pope_sex_abuse_priest.shtml) > > According to the NYT, the current pontiff knew that Fr Peter Hullermann, who began a course of therapy with his approval during the 1980s, would return to pastoral duties a few days after starting psychiatric treatment. Hullerman was later convicted of child molesting. Before today, as the New York Times points out, Ratzinger’s deputy at the time, Rev. Gerhard Gruber, has been held responsible for the decision to rehabilitate Hullermann. Now the American daily says that a memo was delivered to the future pontiff informing him on Hullermann’s situation. The paper says that the existence of the memo “was confirmed by two church officials” and “shows that the future pope not only led a meeting on Jan. 15, 1980, approving the transfer of the priest, but was also kept informed about the priest’s reassignment”. > > DER SPIEGEL’S REVELATIONS – A few days ago, the German weekly Der Spiegel reported the existence of documents and gave details of the child-abusing priest that the pope, when he was an archbishop, agreed should be treated in his Munich diocese in 1980. Later, however, Hullermann was recklessly returned to pastoral duties in contact with minors, for which Ratzinger’s vicar general, Gerhard Gruber, admits responsibility. The German weekly says that the pope, as archbishop of Munich, failed to take the problem of this child molester seriously. > … TRANSFERRED SEVERAL TIMES – Der Spiegel also alleges that Hullermann’s three subsequent transfers – including to Grafing, near Munich, where he was convicted in 1986 for abusing “several students” – took place with no warning about the paedophilia risk involved. The German media subsequently published new revelations about Hullermann. The DPA agency referred to two alleged cases of child sex abuse at Bottrop, in North Rhine-Westphalia, at the church of St Cyriakus, where Hullermann remained until 1978. Thereafter Hullermann, who is currently under suspension, went to Essen, where he stayed until 1980 and where he is alleged to have abused three other boys. Following these episodes, the priest was transferred in 1980 to Munich, where he again abused minors, and in 1986 he was given an eighteen months’ suspended sentence. Finally, there was another episode of alleged abuse in 1998, when Hullermann was at the parish of Garchin an der Alz in Bavaria. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hmm-probably-not-the-smartest-idea-popes-preacher-compares-abuse-row-to-anti-semitism/534756/24 "2010-04-02T22:29:55Z")
Moved from The BBQ Pit to Great Debates. **Gfactor** Pit Moderator ---
**Author:** ![R.P.McMurphy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7993a0/32.png) [@R.P.McMurphy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R.P.McMurphy)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hmm-probably-not-the-smartest-idea-popes-preacher-compares-abuse-row-to-anti-semitism/534756/25 "2010-04-02T23:01:45Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > I don’t think the guy was trying to say either. He was trying to say that trying to blame the entire church for the actions of a few priests is like trying to blame all Jews for the action of a few. It was an _ **institutional** _ cover-up. That a lot different than a few perverts doing bad things. When the institution is guilty for their actions then the institution isn’t being unfairly criticized when the cover-up is exposed. Benny the Many should resign. I don’t hate the Roman Catholic Church and do think that in too many cases it has been the victim of blatant prejudice that could not be directed at any other group. However, the abuse scandal is indefensible. The dogma was such that they were telling people they were going to go to Hell if they missed Mass on Sunday, ate meat on Friday, “touched themselves inappropriately” or used “artificial” methods to plan their family. Meanwhile . . . ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hmm-probably-not-the-smartest-idea-popes-preacher-compares-abuse-row-to-anti-semitism/534756/26 "2010-04-02T23:09:41Z")
Two points that seem to be being overlooked: 1. The pope didn’t say it. 2. The comparison was made by a Jewish guy who was simply being quoted. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hmm-probably-not-the-smartest-idea-popes-preacher-compares-abuse-row-to-anti-semitism/534756/27 "2010-04-02T23:15:37Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Two points that seem to be being overlooked: > > 1. The pope didn’t say it. Nobody said he did. From the article: > [@](#): > > \*\*Pope Benedict’s personal preacher \*\*has compared criticism of the pontiff and Church over child abuse to “collective violence” suffered by the Jews. > > The Rev Raniero Cantalamessa **was speaking at Good Friday prayers in St Peter’s Basilica, attended by the Pope.** I’m sure he didn’t just make it up on the spot. > [@](#): > > 1. The comparison was made by a Jewish guy who was simply being quoted. Or so he claims. Anyway, what’s that got to do with anything? It’s an incredibly stupid and offensive thing to say and repeating it in a prayer in the most important church in catholicism on one of the most important days of the catholic year in front of the most important man in the church does not make it less stupid and offensive in the least. ---
**Author:** ![R.P.McMurphy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7993a0/32.png) [@R.P.McMurphy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R.P.McMurphy)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hmm-probably-not-the-smartest-idea-popes-preacher-compares-abuse-row-to-anti-semitism/534756/28 "2010-04-02T23:20:21Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Two points that seem to be being overlooked: > > 1. The pope didn’t say it. > 2. The comparison was made by a Jewish guy who was simply being quoted. Two points: 1.) The Pope is implicated in a cover-up that was all too common. It was institutional policy. 2.) The comments were made by the Pope’s preacher. That’s heavy duty authority. That he uses a quote from a Jewish friend to try to mitigate the gravity of the problem is farcical. It wasn’t as if a group of high level Jewish authorities issued a signed statement in defense of the RCC using the anti-Semitic analogy. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hmm-probably-not-the-smartest-idea-popes-preacher-compares-abuse-row-to-anti-semitism/534756/29 "2010-04-03T04:40:57Z")
> [@Spartydog](#): > > Two points: > > 1.) The Pope is implicated in a cover-up that was all too common. It was institutional policy. The first point is the ONLY one that matters. All the rest is just noise. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hmm-probably-not-the-smartest-idea-popes-preacher-compares-abuse-row-to-anti-semitism/534756/30 "2010-04-03T04:51:27Z")
[Pope Forgives Molested Children.](http://www.theonion.com/articles/pope-forgives-molested-children,101/) ---
**Author:** ![R.P.McMurphy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7993a0/32.png) [@R.P.McMurphy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R.P.McMurphy)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hmm-probably-not-the-smartest-idea-popes-preacher-compares-abuse-row-to-anti-semitism/534756/31 "2010-04-03T05:18:43Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > The first point is the ONLY one that matters. All the rest is just noise. OK, but the second point is pertinent to the OP. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hmm-probably-not-the-smartest-idea-popes-preacher-compares-abuse-row-to-anti-semitism/534756/32 "2010-04-03T05:26:10Z")
> [@Spartydog](#): > > OK, but the second point is pertinent to the OP. Yes it is, but it’s the first one that most disgusts me. ---
**Author:** ![Pyper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Pyper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pyper)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hmm-probably-not-the-smartest-idea-popes-preacher-compares-abuse-row-to-anti-semitism/534756/33 "2010-04-03T05:34:34Z")
The Catholic Church Godwinizes the debate. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hmm-probably-not-the-smartest-idea-popes-preacher-compares-abuse-row-to-anti-semitism/534756/34 "2010-04-03T05:41:18Z")
> [@Pyper](#): > > The Catholic Church Godwinizes the debate. And so, according to the rules, they lose. ---
**Author:** ![R.P.McMurphy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7993a0/32.png) [@R.P.McMurphy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R.P.McMurphy)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hmm-probably-not-the-smartest-idea-popes-preacher-compares-abuse-row-to-anti-semitism/534756/35 "2010-04-03T06:13:02Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Yes it is, but it’s the first one that most disgusts me. We are on the same page. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hmm-probably-not-the-smartest-idea-popes-preacher-compares-abuse-row-to-anti-semitism/534756/36 "2010-04-03T12:20:39Z")
It’s like the scandal when the Bush administration was caught firing Democratic federal prosecutors, and Ari Fleischer stood there saying “they serve at the pleasure of the president” over and over, as if on the 50th utterance everyone would suddenly say “Well then, that’s good enough for me.” It does deflect the issue, though only briefly, from “how corrupt could you have been to do this” to “how stupid could you have been to offer this lame excuse?” But after that wears off, we’re left with the conviction that they’re corrupt _and_ stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hmm-probably-not-the-smartest-idea-popes-preacher-compares-abuse-row-to-anti-semitism/534756/37 "2010-04-03T12:54:12Z")
Hmm, the BBC article kind of repeats the quote…I’d like to see a transcript, I’d bet in context it wasn’t that bad. I’m not pro-catholic or anything, I just know what the press are like. It reminds me of when Heather Mills said she was being hounded by the press the same way Diana was. The next day The Sun had the headline “I’m just like Princess Diana” – in quote marks. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hmm-probably-not-the-smartest-idea-popes-preacher-compares-abuse-row-to-anti-semitism/534756/38 "2010-04-03T13:08:39Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [Pope Forgives Molested Children.](http://www.theonion.com/articles/pope-forgives-molested-children,101/) At this point, I almost expect to find this in non-\*Onion \*media. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hmm-probably-not-the-smartest-idea-popes-preacher-compares-abuse-row-to-anti-semitism/534756/39 "2010-04-03T13:18:54Z")
As I posted somewhere else; Dear Catholic Church, Welcome to the 21st Century. I think you will find that, unlike in previous centuries, the Church is actually required to follow the laws of the lands in which it operates and act in accordance with the welfare of it’s members. Pedophilia and the protection thereof will not be tolerated. No, I’m sorry, this does not constitute ‘persecution’ of the church, nor is it wise to compare it to the legitimate and unlawful suffering of others. When we in the United States prosecuted Hmong immigrants for marrying off 12 year old girls to 40 year old men, we were not attacking Hmong Culture, we were enforcing our pre-existing laws against such things. So when we prosecute your priests for Pedophilia, and criticize the illegal protection the Church has given those offenders, we are likewise not persecuting the Church. We are only enforcing our nations laws for the protection of our citizens. So rather than accept your complaints about the enforcement of our laws, we can only assume that such complaints indicate that the Church feels that no harm has been done through these unlawful acts, has no remorse for these actions and does not intend to stop doing them. This is the message you send. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hmm-probably-not-the-smartest-idea-popes-preacher-compares-abuse-row-to-anti-semitism/534756/40 "2010-04-03T13:20:00Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Hmm, the BBC article kind of repeats the quote…I’d like to see a transcript, I’d bet in context it wasn’t that bad. In what context does “The passing from personal responsibility and guilt to a collective guilt remind me of the more shameful aspects of antisemitism.” not look bad? Even disregarding that the Church itself was a main instigator of “the more shameful aspects of antisemitism” as the preacher probably intended that term to be interpreted it’s abundantly clear that the Church as an institution _is_ responsible for covering up and enabling child abuse on a massive scale over decades. Comparing the people who realize that to shameful antisemites is hypocritical, vile, self-serving, passive-aggressive and a good indication of how seriously the Church takes its complicity in these crimes (this is; not at all). I also note that the _actual_ “most shameful aspects of antisemitism” lead to an industrial scale mass extermination of its victims, which is in no way comparable to the “attacks” the Church is currently undergoing. I see the priest was only 10 at the time WWII ended, but I still expect him to realize that, just like everybody else in the civilized world. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hmm-probably-not-the-smartest-idea-popes-preacher-compares-abuse-row-to-anti-semitism/534756.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hmm-probably-not-the-smartest-idea-popes-preacher-compares-abuse-row-to-anti-semitism/534756.md?page=3)