# Hmm,probably not the smartest idea...\[Pope's preacher compares abuse row to anti-Semitism\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 2, 2010, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hmm-probably-not-the-smartest-idea-popes-preacher-compares-abuse-row-to-anti-semitism/534756 "2010-04-02T18:31:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![coffeecat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coffeecat/32/3405_2.png) [@coffeecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecat)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hmm-probably-not-the-smartest-idea-popes-preacher-compares-abuse-row-to-anti-semitism/534756/41 "2010-04-03T13:40:11Z")
I can think of a more pertinent Jewish idea. Has the good Father heard of [chillul hashem](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chillul_Hashem)? ---
**Author:** ![qbadger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/fbc32d/32.png) [@qbadger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qbadger)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hmm-probably-not-the-smartest-idea-popes-preacher-compares-abuse-row-to-anti-semitism/534756/42 "2010-04-03T14:09:00Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Hmm, the BBC article kind of repeats the quote…I’d like to see a transcript, I’d bet in context it wasn’t that bad. Ok… you are on. How much? [Here](http://catinfor.com/en/2010/04/03/fr-cantalamessa%E2%80%99s-sermon-for-good-friday-in-the-vatican-basilica/), knock yourself out. The bbc news article actually had that part of speech in video, which I thought was long enough to make the context pretty clear. [Topeka](http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/04/different-kind-of-company-name.html) is your friend for next time, btw. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hmm-probably-not-the-smartest-idea-popes-preacher-compares-abuse-row-to-anti-semitism/534756/43 "2010-04-03T14:35:37Z")
> [@qbadger](#): > > Ok… you are on. How much? > [Here](http://catinfor.com/en/2010/04/03/fr-cantalamessa%E2%80%99s-sermon-for-good-friday-in-the-vatican-basilica/), knock yourself out. The bbc news article actually had that part of speech in video, which I thought was long enough to make the context pretty clear. OK, fine, it is as bad as it sounds. I think I was just used to the media trying to pull people’s words constantly into hyperbole or inappropriate simile like this. But I guess in this case the truth is pretty damning. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hmm-probably-not-the-smartest-idea-popes-preacher-compares-abuse-row-to-anti-semitism/534756/44 "2010-04-03T15:23:46Z")
Great, Ratzinger has his own Reverend Wright now. ---
**Author:** ![Find\_Friends](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@Find\_Friends](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Find_Friends)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hmm-probably-not-the-smartest-idea-popes-preacher-compares-abuse-row-to-anti-semitism/534756/45 "2010-04-03T15:25:27Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > I don’t think the guy was trying to say either. He was trying to say that trying to blame the entire church for the actions of a few priests … Let’s look at what is involved here. It wasn’t only a matter of a certain small percentage of priests as predators. It was also matter of an entrenched system to cover up for them. While even a single such predator is one too many, and the harm they did should never be minimalized, it stands to reason that the cover-up system was far worse a thing than even the total number of predators. And since the cover-up system wasn’t limited to a diocese, archdiocese, or nation, the entire “Vatican” \* or at least the Magisterium, is culpable. Is it a shame that some people may use this as an excuse to be more anti-Catholic? Yep. It also would be unfair for non-predator priests to be tarred with the same brush. Any such individual priest, while probably knowing of the cover-up system, may have been completely clueless about other individual priests as dangerous. Even with some reason to be suspicious in some case, he may not have had any proof to dare make an accusation, or any power to make a move in any case. Really, the real responsibility for prevention or sanctions would seem to start at the ordinary bishop level, at the lowest. And, as has been pointed out upthread, there isn’t any parallel historical root for anti-Semitism. All in all, it just seems to me to be a case of No-Criticism-Allowed when a powerful religious institution is involved. _ **- Og** _ - “Vatican” in quotes because it may connote different things. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hmm-probably-not-the-smartest-idea-popes-preacher-compares-abuse-row-to-anti-semitism/534756/46 "2010-04-03T15:34:07Z")
There can also be an issue with egos so strong that they literally can’t comprehend the notion that they themselves might be doing wrong. These men are all where they are, and are doing what they’re doing, because they, quite literally, believe God called them to be there and do it. How can God be wrong? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hmm-probably-not-the-smartest-idea-popes-preacher-compares-abuse-row-to-anti-semitism/534756/47 "2010-04-03T16:14:50Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > As I posted somewhere else; > Dear Catholic Church, > > Welcome to the 21st Century. I think you will find that, unlike in previous centuries, the Church is actually required to follow the laws of the lands in which it operates **and act in accordance with the welfare of it’s members**. Pedophilia and the protection thereof will not be tolerated. No, I’m sorry, this does not constitute ‘persecution’ of the church, nor is it wise to compare it to the legitimate and unlawful suffering of others. > > When we in the United States prosecuted Hmong immigrants for marrying off 12 year old girls to 40 year old men, we were not attacking Hmong Culture, we were enforcing our pre-existing laws against such things. So when we prosecute your priests for Pedophilia, and criticize the illegal protection the Church has given those offenders, we are likewise not persecuting the Church. We are only enforcing our nations laws for the protection of our citizens. > > So rather than accept your complaints about the enforcement of our laws, we can only assume that such complaints indicate that the Church feels that no harm has been done through these unlawful acts, has no remorse for these actions and does not intend to stop doing them. This is the message you send. From His Holiness Pope Cliffy Claven I, greetings: You have used the contraction form of “it is” in place of the possessive pronoun for the third person singular. By the authority vested in us by Our Lord Jesus Christ, it is our papal decree that for this grievous offense, you are to burn for eternity in the fires of Hell. We trust that this response will suffice to fulfill your needs. It is the only one you are going to get. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hmm-probably-not-the-smartest-idea-popes-preacher-compares-abuse-row-to-anti-semitism/534756/48 "2010-04-03T16:41:27Z")
A while ago Andrew Sullivan proposed that anyone saying “my Gay friend said to me” had to produce at least a note from the alleged friend. I want know who put this idea in the preacher’s pointy little head. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hmm-probably-not-the-smartest-idea-popes-preacher-compares-abuse-row-to-anti-semitism/534756/49 "2010-04-03T17:48:17Z")
> [@coffeecat](#): > > I can think of a more pertinent Jewish idea. Has the good Father heard of [chillul hashem](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chillul_Hashem)? That is a VERY VERY good concept. The Pope and Bishops should take careful note of something the link said: > [@](#): > > Biblical Lev. 22:32 term meaning to bring dishonour or shame to God’s name by an action or lack thereof. Any behavior or action that disgraces, harms or shames God and his Torah is regarded as a chillul hashem (“desecration of God’s name”); They took NO action to address the situation or to prevent further crimes, they simply shuffled the perps off to some other place (to do it all over again). There’s your inaction. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hmm-probably-not-the-smartest-idea-popes-preacher-compares-abuse-row-to-anti-semitism/534756/50 "2010-04-03T17:58:13Z")
Oh, and at the risk of turning this into a “hate the sin but not the sinner” argument, I’ve not heard a single person say that this is a reason to condemn catholics (though I wouldn’t be surprised if this was reason for more than a few of them to leave the church). The allegations and criticisms are directed clearly at the higher levels of the catholic hierarchy, which is where they should be directed. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2010, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hmm-probably-not-the-smartest-idea-popes-preacher-compares-abuse-row-to-anti-semitism/534756/51 "2010-04-05T14:43:42Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Two points that seem to be being overlooked: > > 1. The pope didn’t say it. But did the pope say “that’s not cool” or “he shouldn’t have said that”? > [@](#): > > 1. The comparison was made by a Jewish guy who was simply being quoted. But Rev. Cantalamessa chose to repeat what that Jewish guy said. That implies that he agrees with him. There’s nothing about being Jewish that keeps you from saying dumb things. That includes saying dumb things about anti-semitism. It’s not as if our people’s experience with anti-semitism makes everything every Jew has to say about anti-semitism infallible. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2010, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hmm-probably-not-the-smartest-idea-popes-preacher-compares-abuse-row-to-anti-semitism/534756/52 "2010-04-05T15:06:22Z")
> [@Anne\_Neville](#): > > If all that had happened was that some priests molested some kids, that might work as an analogy. But that’s not all that happened. What happened is that some people in the Church hierarchy showed that they care more about the reputation of the Church than they do about punishing someone who molested children. > > If I knew that my congregation’s rabbi was molesting kids (which he isn’t, but just as a hypothetical example), I’d turn him in to the police. I would do that even though I know it would damage the reputation of Judaism and of my congregation. Stopping a child molester from offending again is more important than preserving the reputation of any institution. I’d expect any person with any morals to speak of to do the same. To my mind it is a problem inherent in having such a powerful hierarchy. It has been one of the strengths of Judaism that it lacks a powerful religious hierarchy. The relationship between a Jewish congregation and its Rabbi is very different from the relationship between a Catholic congregation and the Church as an institution. When rabbis offend against congregants, there is less pressure to cover the matter up, because the congregation has more power within the institution than the religious functionaries. To my mind, what the Catholic Church as an institution needs to avoid problems of this sort is more local power within the institution to the congregations. This goes against millenia of history, though. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2010, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hmm-probably-not-the-smartest-idea-popes-preacher-compares-abuse-row-to-anti-semitism/534756/53 "2010-04-05T15:07:02Z")
> [@Anne\_Neville](#): > > But Rev. Cantalamessa chose to repeat what that Jewish guy said. That implies that he agrees with him. Wonder who the mystery “Jewish guy” is? :dubious: A couple things to keep in mind about this grotesque attempt to paint the Catholic hierarchy as victims: Advocates for genuine victims (those abused by priests) seem more outraged over Cantalamessa’s remarks than Jews (for example, Abraham Foxman of the Anti-Defamation League commented that he thought Cantalamessa was speaking from ignorance rather than malice). The idea that the Vatican doesn’t in some way approve of Cantalamessa’s statements is [hard to believe](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/03/world/europe/03church.html). \*"The Vatican spokesman, the Rev. Federico Lombardi, stressed that Father Cantalamessa’s sermon represented his own thoughts and was not an official Vatican statement. Father Lombardi said the remarks should not be construed as equating recent criticism of the Catholic Church with anti-Semitism. “I don’t think it’s an appropriate comparison,” he said. “That’s why the letter should be read as a letter of solidarity by a Jew.” **Yet the official Vatican newspaper, L’Osservatore Romano, published the remarks in its Saturday edition, which appeared online on Friday evening.** \* (bolding added). The Times article also mentions that some Italian media are seeing a conspiracy (ies) behind criticism of the Catholic Church. Cited is an article in a center-left Italian newspaper stating that in certain unnamed Catholic circles it’s believed that criticism of the Church over sex abuse is being generated by a “New York Jewish lobby”. Yep, no one could possibly be pissed off otherwise. :rolleyes: The sickness runs deep with some of these people. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2010, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hmm-probably-not-the-smartest-idea-popes-preacher-compares-abuse-row-to-anti-semitism/534756/54 "2010-04-05T22:29:15Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > The Times article also mentions that some Italian media are seeing a conspiracy (ies) behind criticism of the Catholic Church. Cited is an article in a center-left Italian newspaper stating that in certain unnamed Catholic circles it’s believed that criticism of the Church over sex abuse is being generated by a “New York Jewish lobby”. Shit. Whose side is a decent antisemite to take in this matter anyway? ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hmm-probably-not-the-smartest-idea-popes-preacher-compares-abuse-row-to-anti-semitism/534756/55 "2010-04-06T12:59:24Z")
I’d like to see them borrow another concept from us: “Never again”. I’d love to hear them say “Never again will we cover up for a priest who is molesting children.” Or “Never again will we not fully cooperate with civil authorities in bringing a child molester to justice”. Or “Never again will we swear victims of molestation to silence”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hmm-probably-not-the-smartest-idea-popes-preacher-compares-abuse-row-to-anti-semitism/534756.md?page=2)