# HOA horror story **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [March 22, 2024, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hoa-horror-story/999217 "2024-03-22T19:04:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2024, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hoa-horror-story/999217/161 "2024-03-27T17:15:27Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > road maintenance which can’t really be done any other way. Can you explain this? I always thought that road maintenance was inherently a government responsibility, funded through taxes and managed by elected representatives. But I’ve never owned in the US, only rented, and maybe that’s just an assumption from ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Pork\_Rind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pork_rind/32/111_2.png) [@Pork\_Rind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pork_Rind)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2024, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hoa-horror-story/999217/162 "2024-03-27T17:16:36Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > Also, as has been noted over and over and over, the overwhelming majority of HOAs just do things like road maintenance which can’t really be done any other way. Exactly. The only HOA I’ve ever been a part of was with my parents’ house. I’m familiar with the CC&Rs there as I sold that house for him after my mother died. The HOA in that case only provided for the maintenance of the lake the houses in the development shared. 40 years of complete non-issue for my dad. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2024, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hoa-horror-story/999217/163 "2024-03-27T17:19:51Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > I’m curious as to the prevalence of HOAs. Are they so common because so few people like them? Seems odd. They are prevalent because they provide a way for municipalities to reap the benefits of a new neighborhood full of taxpayers without having to absorb the costs of code enforcement and infrastructure maintenance in the new neighborhood, so they give developers a whole lot of tax breaks and other perks for adding HOA covenants to the property deeds. In the meantime, homeowners are forced into the position of having to form a de facto government in order to do the stuff the city should be doing, something they frequently have neither the skill set or inclination to handle. To make it worse, the developers set initial HOA fees that are artificially low in order to sell homes, and when the HOA is turned over to the homeowners and the new boards sees what the true costs of running the community are, they have to raise fees - which causes some neighbors to accuse the board of incompetence and theft. So now you frequently have neighborhoods where the homeowners are at war with each other, and they take it out on each other, while they continue to vote for “pro-business” politicians and policies - they may like low taxes but they never see their HOA fees for what they are, which is a back door tax. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2024, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hoa-horror-story/999217/164 "2024-03-27T17:27:05Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Can you explain this? I always thought that road maintenance was inherently a government responsibility, funded through taxes and managed by elected representatives. > [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > They are prevalent because they provide a way for municipalities to reap the benefits of a new neighborhood full of taxpayers without having to absorb the costs of code enforcement and infrastructure maintenance in the new neighborhood, so they give developers a whole lot of tax breaks and other perks for adding HOA covenants to the property deeds. Well, there are all manner of HoAs. Some might involve subdivisions in which the roads are private. As such, the HoA is responsible for maintaining/plowing/repairing roads. In our area, that is uncommon. The roads are generally deeded to the municipality. Same for water/sewers. I also believe the municipality/township/whatever can still enforce its codes within its borders, independent of whatever an HOA might say. Instead, the HOAs I have been familiar with are primarily responsible for setting aesthetic standards and maintaining common areas. Maybe mowing lawns. I would welcome cites to dispel my ignorance, establishing that municipalities give tax breaks for including HOA covenants, in order to save the municipality enforcement/maintenance costs. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2024, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hoa-horror-story/999217/165 "2024-03-27T17:28:09Z")
It depends - some HOAs own the streets which generally means the government won’t maintain them , plow them etc. Sometimes these are gated communities and sometimes not. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2024, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hoa-horror-story/999217/166 "2024-03-27T17:51:53Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Can you explain this? I always thought that road maintenance was inherently a government responsibility, funded through taxes and managed by elected representatives. It is for public roads. But there are also private roads, which are the responsibity of the people who live on them. Most people in the USA do live on public roads; but some live on private roads. Sometimes these are old roads that don’t meet modern standards for the town to take them over (insufficient width of right-of-way, for instance); sometimes they’re private because the developer wanted to build a gated community that they could keep others out of, or the homeowners on that road just didn’t want to have additional traffic on it or don’t want people coming down the road looking for access to a lake or whatever when there isn’t actually any public access there; sometimes the town didn’t want the expense of taking care of additional roads, and made the developer keep ownership of the roads because it was cheaper for the town. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2024, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hoa-horror-story/999217/167 "2024-03-27T20:15:28Z")
Thanks, everybody. I had always thought private roads were on farms and large estates and things, but that urban single-family homes were necessarily on public roads. Ignorance fought. It brings up a whole host of questions about who is responsible for what when members of the public drive over such a road, but I’m not quite interested enough to start a thread about it. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2024, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hoa-horror-story/999217/168 "2024-03-27T20:23:27Z")
@Ann_Hedonia has posted a lot of great information about new development HOAs and how they’re a tax dodge. I want to acknowledge that. I was totally unaware of it. That really is evil. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2024, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hoa-horror-story/999217/169 "2024-03-27T21:45:01Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > @Ann_Hedonia has posted a lot of great information about new development HOAs and how they’re a tax dodge. Where is the great information? I see assertions. What she asserts in post 162 MIGHT be accurate, but I’m going to need to see some support/corroboration before I accept that it is more than one person’s opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2024, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hoa-horror-story/999217/170 "2024-03-27T22:07:05Z")
I own a road. It connects 2 county roads between two different counties. It was a mud track when we bought the land. My land crosses the road. And is a large acreage over the two counties(yes, I pay property taxes in two counties😡) We made it a passable road when we were building. Subsequently billet haulers, lookyloos, and ne’er-do-wells were using it. We’re not allowed to block it either end for fear of “something” that was never quite stated by the state. The state won’t incorporate it, maintain a road bed, cut ditches, or anything. Nothing. So…sez I “who is supposed to do these things?” The landowner. So…sez I “I can decide who can use this road and who can’t?” Nope. Mrs. Wrek. It’s a matter of conveyance and public safety for inhabitants. No…sez I “No one but me lives here, the road goes nowhere. No safety needed. And none down there if you needed some. Just woods.” Well, too bad. Congrats you own a road. Enjoy. We did succeed in getting a sign put at one end that says “unmaintained private road”. The other end that county won’t allow a sign. We put our own sign and got chewed out. You can never beat all the regulations where ever you live in these United States. It’s a matter of what you want to deal with and can do. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2024, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hoa-horror-story/999217/171 "2024-03-27T22:58:44Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I live in a hi-rise. We have the equivalent of an HOA. The building could not possibly operate without one. And it works really well. YMMV Same with us, except we’re just a 9-story, 30-condo building, and we don’t really have a board, we have Moshe. Moshe is a nice, harried man who every six months announces he’s had enough and is quitting and every six months we beg him to stay on for just another six month. Poor schmuck. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2024, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hoa-horror-story/999217/172 "2024-03-27T23:56:32Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > We’re not allowed to block it either end for fear of “something” that was never quite stated by the state. The state won’t incorporate it, maintain a road bed, cut ditches, or anything. Huh. That’s weird. – wait a minute. The road was there before you were? Was it used as a general public right of way for a period of years long enough to legally estabish it as such in your state? You might indeed be stuck with it, then. But I wouldn’t ask the state, at least around here – that doesn’t sound remotely like a state road. We have state roads, county roads, and town roads; and, barring agreements between the municipalities, they’re all maintained separately. I’d think that it’s the town or equivalent which you want to take over your road, not the state. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2024, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hoa-horror-story/999217/173 "2024-03-28T02:42:41Z")
It was basically a trail. Muddy, hole filled. No road bed. No gravel. The county supposedly maintains county roads. They directed us to the state. Who can’t care less. This was not a numbered/named county road til we needed an address. So in essence we created our own dilemma. The electric co-op needed a physical address. Deliveries needed a physical address. To tell the truth I often had to go to the state highway and have delivery vehicles follow me to the build site. There’s is no town. The counties here are very poor. No money for road building. They can barely support a crew for road maintenance. The state deemed the road not necessary as there’s actually nothing at either end except another county road. One of them is blind. The other just leads to a state highway that is poorly maintained itself. Very, very rural. So, as they say, there’s no fix. The infrastructure in South Arkansas is sadly in need of proper management. I’ve been here a long time. And we’ve financed and personally fixed all problems of “our” road. No bridges. No ditches. No limb removal. No gravel. No nothing. Mr.Wrek has abilities and has had access to heavy equipment and help. He’s done it all. He says they should name the first low water bridge ‘Wrek Bridge’ in his honor. We have to get it first. (No, he cannot build his own. They said “no” quite loudly) Yet we have to endure public use, to some degree. The loggers use it as a short cut and they can do some damage. We’ve had vine pullers using it looking for camping spots. And the teenage lovers and partiers. It’s a favorite unwanted dog and other pet drop off. And an occasional criminal hideout. But we survive. ---
**Author:** ![pullin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c57346/32.png) [@pullin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pullin)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2024, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hoa-horror-story/999217/174 "2024-03-28T12:36:45Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > Near the end, we got a taste of what happens when assholes take over. A woman got herself elected president and tried to make unilateral changes to things without a vote by the membership. She got her ass handed to her in pretty short order. > > On the other hand, I had an employee who was on the HOA for her housing area. She liked to tell me how she would poke around people’s properties looking for “violations” and then cite them for petty bullshit. We have a unique HOA setup which mediates these types. The covenants are binding, but paying dues is voluntary. When we (inevitably) get a control-freak who wants to micromanage, most of the neighborhood stops paying dues. We can starve out the strutting little Napoleons fairly quickly, since they can’t do anything without money. Few of us actually use the tennis courts, etc., so we’re willing to let them be closed for a while. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2024, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hoa-horror-story/999217/175 "2024-03-28T12:45:17Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > It brings up a whole host of questions about who is responsible for what when members of the public drive over such a road We are the third of three homes on our dead-end road. All three homes were built around the same time. The road initially was treated like a long driveway, but eventually was given a name and “lane” status. It is private and signage declares private property, no trespassing. The three couples all contribute equally for gravel from the town road to where the first house sits. The other two houses pay for gravel from that point to their home. There is no written agreement. All three couples get along fine. The oldest couple is excused from some road maintenance (like when a tree falls across the road). In exchange, when I was cutting up a tree, he brought out some beer on ice and chatted. Snow is largely ignored. We each own a 4 WD vehicle. For the once a decade huge snowfall we all chip in to pay a plow. ETA: we exclude cold call sales people. The oldest guy is a stickler for this. He calls the cops for any salesman. The town police are happy to respond as it is revenue for the town. They require a permit for door to door sales, so they ticket the trespassers for that as well as whatever else. ---
**Author:** ![CaveMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cavemike/32/16379_2.png) [@CaveMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaveMike)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2024, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hoa-horror-story/999217/176 "2024-03-28T13:24:17Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Well, there are all manner of HoAs. Some might involve subdivisions in which the roads are private. As such, the HoA is responsible for maintaining/plowing/repairing roads. In our area, that is uncommon. The roads are generally deeded to the municipality. Same for water/sewers. It may be that you’re thinking only of large subdivisions with private roads – like in an old unincorporated area, but in developed areas (like both of ours) it can be smaller, multi-home developments squeezed in among the other residences. The smallest ones will have a private drive, larger ones with have a private access road. The snow removal and resurfacing is done by the HOA. I agree with @Ann_Hedonia. Her observations about an extra, unofficial layer of government are spot-on, as is the artificially low HOA costs from the builder. My observation is that HOAs are often augmenting village services. I suspect that they help with village council approval since they eliminate cost and objections by some village departments. I admit I don’t have a cite though. I’ve been hanging on in this thread to see if someone else has data proving or disproving it. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2024, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hoa-horror-story/999217/177 "2024-03-28T13:53:39Z")
A couple cites: > **[How government uses HOAs and special districts to create stealth tax](https://independentamericancommunities.com/2017/06/09/how-government-uses-hoas-and-special-districts-to-create-stealth-tax/)** > > Independent American Communities Consumer Education for Homebuyers, Home, and Property Owners | Exposing Condo & HOA Dysfunction, Corruption, & Abuse | homeowners association, condominium, cooperative housing, affordable housing, housing... Another one (29pp PDF): > **[Property%20Taxes%20and%20Homeowners%20Associations.pdf](https://www.camsmgt.com/files/Property%20Taxes%20and%20Homeowners%20Associations.pdf)** It isn’t just property taxes that HOA homeowners pay _for common areas._ It’s the same situation with the homes they own. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2024, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hoa-horror-story/999217/178 "2024-03-28T13:55:13Z")
> [@CaveMike](#): > > It may be that you’re thinking only of large subdivisions with private roads – like in an old unincorporated area, but in developed areas (like both of ours) it can be smaller, multi-home developments squeezed in among the other residences. The smallest ones will have a private drive, larger ones with have a private access road. The snow removal and resurfacing is done by the HOA. > > I agree with @Ann_Hedonia. Her observations about an extra, unofficial layer of government are spot-on, … When folk claim that a substantial percentage of new homes involve HOAs, in my ignorance I presume they are discussing something other than just small in-fill subdivisions such as you suggest. One big development in the burbs would outnumber a considerable number of small in-fills. And someone who has to have a new home always has the option of tearing down and building a stand-alone home. **Ann Hedonia** may well be correct WRT tax breaks given to developers propoising HOAs - it is just something I had never heard of before. Again, in my ignorance, I’d presume a municipality generally is responsible for providing water/sewers, police/fire protections, access to public schools… Yes, I know there are exceptions, such as private water providers/wells… While in law school several decades ago I briefly did an internship with a local government, part of which involved reviewing proposed subdivision plats. The one thing I remember is that proposed roads had to comply with city requirements, as I recall to enable emergency/fire truck access. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2024, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hoa-horror-story/999217/179 "2024-03-28T13:57:41Z")
My general feeling is that HOAs can do good services, and they can _also_ be nightmares for folks just trying to live their lives, and that the proper role of government is to enable the former while restraining the latter. We have a shit-ton of rules around businesses and the way they treat their employees, and we don’t adopt some libertarian nonsense of “If you don’t like working for two dollars a day in a deathtrap factory, just go get a job somewhere else.” We should set up similar rules around HOAs to protect residents from power-mad boards. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2024, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hoa-horror-story/999217/180 "2024-03-28T14:01:55Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > I don’t know if I really buy that - I mean sure, if you define the area restrictively enough it’s probably true. When we were buying a house we could afford 3 choices - 2 of which were in HOAs. We got one in a tiny town and were, “Whew, not HOA.” … until we found out that the code enforcement officer (also a meth dealer, gotta love small town politics) ran her town like an HOA Karen-President. She’s now gone and the new CEO is extremely reasonable so now truly no HOA. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hoa-horror-story/999217.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hoa-horror-story/999217.md?page=10)