# Hobbit question concerning the death of Smaug **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 19, 2013, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hobbit-question-concerning-the-death-of-smaug/674271 "2013-11-19T17:23:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Yodalicious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yodalicious/32/8195_2.png) [@Yodalicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yodalicious)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hobbit-question-concerning-the-death-of-smaug/674271/1 "2013-11-19T17:23:22Z")
Figure I don’t need a spoiler warning for a 76 year old book. Did Tolkien ever say why he decided Bard would get to kill Smaug and not one of the Dwarves? Seems like Thorin should have gotten the kill. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hobbit-question-concerning-the-death-of-smaug/674271/2 "2013-11-19T17:31:47Z")
WAG: the dwarves were absolute chickens when it came to Smaug. They didn’t want to face him – they kept sending in their burglar. Also, the dwarves in the book seemed to be primarily motivated by getting their treasure back. Revenge may not have been their primary motivation. ---
**Author:** ![sohvan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/96bed5/32.png) [@sohvan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sohvan)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hobbit-question-concerning-the-death-of-smaug/674271/3 "2013-11-19T17:49:40Z")
It sets up the justification for Bard demanding a part of Smaug’s hoard. It makes the dwarves refusal to give compensation to the Lake-men even more unreasonable, and leads into Bilbo doing the right thing by betraying the dwarves. It ends with Thorin succumbing to the stubborness and greed that plagued his fathers, and his eventual reconciliation with Bilbo. These events could be seen differently if the dwarves had killed Smaug personally. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hobbit-question-concerning-the-death-of-smaug/674271/4 "2013-11-19T17:55:11Z")
In the book there was a city called Dale near the mountain that was destroyed by Smaug when he came to take the dwarven treasure horde. Bard, as a descendant of the last king of Dale gets to kill Smaug not only because he is prudent, grim and noble (this is Tolkien after all) but because it allows Tolkien to re-establish Dale with its rightful king. Thorin gets his kingdom, and Bard gets his. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hobbit-question-concerning-the-death-of-smaug/674271/5 "2013-11-19T18:07:59Z")
The dwarves never had a real shot at killing Smaug, and they knew it. The Dragon had laid waste to their entire stronghold at the height of its power; thirteen of them, armed with whatever odds and ends they had managed to pick up over the years, could not possibly accomplish what the cream of Thror’s army could not do. They were intent on the idea of burglary since before the Unexpected Party, since as Gandalf said they could not beat the Dragon in a fight without the aid of a mighty warrior or even a Hero, both of which were unavailable. And while they were discussing matters at the Mountain itself, they agreed that trying to sneak up on him and stab him while asleep had even less chance of success. All they could do was hope for some unlikely chance to come their way - such as finding out the location of Smaug’s only soft spot and conveying the information unintentionally to the best bowman in several hundred miles equipped with an antique dwarf-forged arrow. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hobbit-question-concerning-the-death-of-smaug/674271/6 "2013-11-19T18:20:56Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > Bard, as a descendant of the last king of Dale Wait, what? Was that established in The Hobbit? Or in something dug up by Chris Tolkien? ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hobbit-question-concerning-the-death-of-smaug/674271/7 "2013-11-19T18:25:25Z")
Pretty sure it’s in the book but I can check later on tonight to validate it. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hobbit-question-concerning-the-death-of-smaug/674271/8 "2013-11-19T18:47:25Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > Wait, what? Was that established in The Hobbit? Or in something dug up by Chris Tolkien? From the book: “He was a descendant in long line of Girion, Lord of Dale, whose wife and child had escaped down the Running River from the ruin long ago.” so not technically a King, but certainly the ruler. And given Tolkien’s disdain for shabby institutions like democracy (witness the descriptions and fate of the Master of Laketown, the only democratically elected ruler ever mentioned by Tolkien), Girion was probably a King in all but name. ---
**Author:** ![llcoolbj77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/eb9ed0/32.png) [@llcoolbj77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/llcoolbj77)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hobbit-question-concerning-the-death-of-smaug/674271/9 "2013-11-19T18:47:31Z")
I don’t think the Dwarves had any real intention of killing Smaug, just in getting back their treasure. If Smaug died somehow, all the better. But Thorin was kind of a bastard. And I don’t think Tolkien wanted to give him the hero treatment. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hobbit-question-concerning-the-death-of-smaug/674271/10 "2013-11-19T18:48:13Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > Wait, what? Was that established in The Hobbit? Or in something dug up by Chris Tolkien? From [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_kings_of_Dale) (unsure of whether this was actually mentioned in The Hobbit, LotR, or somewhere else): “Bard of Esgaroth was a skilled archer and the heir of Girion, the last king of old Dale.” ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hobbit-question-concerning-the-death-of-smaug/674271/11 "2013-11-19T19:00:56Z")
Is a mayor partcuarly distinct from a “ruler”? 'Cos I’m pretty sure that’s an elected position. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hobbit-question-concerning-the-death-of-smaug/674271/12 "2013-11-19T19:14:37Z")
Well there’s the Mayor of Mitchel Delving in the Shire, an elected position which entailed keeping the mail going, the sheriffs from eating too much and attending festivities. The mayor of Laketown was elected though it sounds more like selected from the merchant class. Laketown however is not Dale. Dale was located at the other end of the Long Lake near the Lonely Mountain. ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_blistering_barnacle/32/3386_2.png) [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_Blistering_Barnacle)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hobbit-question-concerning-the-death-of-smaug/674271/13 "2013-11-19T19:29:32Z")
The only thing I can add is that this is the kind of thing that separates Tolkien from ‘swords and sorcery’ fantasy. ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hobbit-question-concerning-the-death-of-smaug/674271/14 "2013-11-19T20:39:21Z")
Can I ask anothe question about Smaug? Way back in 1966 my sixth grade teacher read us a chapter of _The Hobbit_ every day. I t was my first introduction to Tolkien and quality fantasy literature. I seem to remember he pronounced the name as _Smog_, like air pollution And ever since that’s how I’ve heard it in my head. But the trailers for the movie have characters pronouncing the name as Smaog, with the middle part, the mao, like the Chinese dictator. So I guess I’ve been wrong, because the Tolkien geeks wouldn’t let Jackson get away with saying it wrong. But have I, really? ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hobbit-question-concerning-the-death-of-smaug/674271/15 "2013-11-19T20:46:15Z")
And I did check, in the 1977 animated _Hobbit_ the dragon was pronounced as Smog. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hobbit-question-concerning-the-death-of-smaug/674271/16 "2013-11-19T20:59:28Z")
SMAY-oog. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hobbit-question-concerning-the-death-of-smaug/674271/17 "2013-11-19T21:00:42Z")
smowwwggghhh ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hobbit-question-concerning-the-death-of-smaug/674271/18 "2013-11-19T21:03:49Z")
> [@llcoolbj77](#): > > I don’t think the Dwarves had any real intention of killing Smaug, just in getting back their treasure. If Smaug died somehow, all the better. But Thorin was kind of a bastard. And I don’t think Tolkien wanted to give him the hero treatment. I agree. And more: Tolkien is writing about the END of the age of elves/dwarves etc and the emerging Age of Men – even if he hadn’t fully formulated this when he wrote _The Hobbit._ So it makes sense that men would emerge as heroes, as the dragon-slayer. Plus, most Germanic myths about dragon-slaying involve men. Plus, of course, he was writing for children who want to see daddy (grown-up man) as hero killing the dragon, rather than funny/pathetic dwarves. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hobbit-question-concerning-the-death-of-smaug/674271/19 "2013-11-19T21:14:49Z")
Thorin & Co., for all their bluster, know their limits. Put another way, they’re kind of cowardly. They’re not (until last year’s movie, at least) action heroes, and they often send Bilbo forward into danger (the three trolls; Smaug’s lair) rather than go themselves. They don’t have the means of slaying Smaug but, fortuitously, Bard the Bowman does, with a little help from a bird. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hobbit-question-concerning-the-death-of-smaug/674271/20 "2013-11-19T21:30:57Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Bard the Bowman does, with a little help from a bird. Siegfried had the help of the wood bird in slaying the dragon Fafnir. How did the bird help Bard the Bowman? Sounds like Bill the Builder. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hobbit-question-concerning-the-death-of-smaug/674271.md?page=2)